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Speed of light in Deep Space Unknown

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3 minutes ago, MigL said:
  8 minutes ago, dad said:

"This theorem only applies to continuous and smooth symmetries over physical space."

 

No I didn't make it up.
You brought it up in your quote from Wiki; which you don't seem to understand.
( I suggest re-reading and letting it sink in; or should I not bring up anything you don't understand )

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11 minutes ago, dad said:

There is no burden of anything for 'I don't know' Only those claiming they do know bear that puppy!

But you didn’t say you don’t know. You insinuated that momentum isn’t conserved.

 

11 minutes ago, dad said:

And I did answer the question. You see all light here in the fishbowl from anywhere.

No, you didn’t. That’s not what I asked.

Anyway, since there is nothing “in the fishbowl” that would affect the light, then anything that happens to it must happen in deep space, or it must be different at the source. But we can make measurements and see that the physics is the same in distant locations, and nothing happened to it en route.

 

11 minutes ago, dad said:

You see, unless time existed the same out there, and space, there are no distances to any star known! So you are in posiyion to discuss from where.

Where does time appear in a parallax measurement?

 

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1 hour ago, Phi for All said:
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It's not so much a claim as predictions based on observation that have worked in every testable situation.

Except that by basing models on the belief it is a claim if you say the models are correct. You have also not tested what time was like in the far universe in any test. Face it. Otherwise, cite the test.

 

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Theory is about the best available explanation, not about what is "known".

Well, theories can be tested. Beliefs can't. (at least science beliefs). Name the test for what time is like in far space?

 

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If observation doesn't match the theory, the theory is changed.

What theory?! There is no theory that has been offered here that deals with time and the nature of time in the far universe.

 

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But why change it when it works?

Anything that ever worked, or works is in the fishbowl. Nowhere else. Admit ignorance where it is appropriate.

 

1 hour ago, MigL said:

No I didn't make it up.
You brought it up in your quote from Wiki; which you don't seem to understand.
( I suggest re-reading and letting it sink in; or should I not bring up anything you don't understand )

Sorry, it is you that lacks understanding unlesss you demonstrate otherwise.

1 hour ago, swansont said:
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But you didn’t say you don’t know. You insinuated that momentum isn’t conserved.

Hey, you claimed it applies and I asked for support. No wiggling.

 

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Anyway, since there is nothing “in the fishbowl” that would affect the light, then anything that happens to it must happen in deep space, or it must be different at the source

 


 

 

 

We do have time here in the fishbowl actually. It very much affects all we see. the speed of light, for example!

By the way, you claim that if time was different how do you propose that you would observe this!?

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Where does time appear in a parallax measurement?

 

Time should appear but does not! They call is space or distance only. You see they take a huge swath of this fishbowl (solar system area) and then try to imagine it does not involve or include time! They draw a line to a star as if time and space were homogeneous. Unless they are, the measure is worthless. Since you don't seem to be able to prove that time is the same out there (or space) the claimed distances to stars and sizes etc are worthless.

 

 

Edited by dad

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1 hour ago, dad said:

There is no burden of anything for 'I don't know' Only those claiming they do know bear that puppy!

And I did answer the question. You see all light here in the fishbowl from anywhere.

You see, unless time existed the same out there, and space, there are no distances to any star known! So you are in posiyion to discuss from where.

Forget physical space you made that up.

You don't know what space is either!

I suggest you tell us how anything about time translation symetry applies to deep space. Otherwise do not bring it up again. Define 'physical' space and then prove it also exists in the fringes of the universe?

What do you  mean forget space? It is not made up, it is what evolved with time at t+10-43 seconds. 

By the way, space is interchangeable with time...Intervals of space and time considered separately are not the same for all observers...that's relativity.

You also seem rather hostile to any and all reasonable answers given to you. 

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13 minutes ago, beecee said:
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What do you  mean forget space? It is not made up, it is what evolved with time at t+10-43 seconds. 

Or what was created...whatever. Believe what you like. I happen to know the reasons that that fable exist, so you can preach elsewhere.

 

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By the way, space is interchangeable with time..

Prove it.

 

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.Intervals of space and time considered separately are not the same for all observers...that's relativity.

All observer sare in one tiny speck in the universe, so you have no observers anywhere else. (our solar system area)

 

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You also seem rather hostile to any and all reasonable answers given to you. 

You thought your religion got to define what reasonable was? Ha.

 

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You made a promise on Apr 15, 2016...

"Because of biased unfair lying mods I am closing my profile account now."

And you've broken that promise.
Very un-Christian of you.

We don't come to your Christian forum and argue without faith
Why do you need to come to our Science forum and argue with no  evidence.

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27 minutes ago, dad said:

Or what was created...whatever. Believe what you like. I happen to know the reasons that that fable exist, so you can preach elsewhere.

I don't indulge in fables, myths or conspiracy no matter how warm and fuzzy it makes me feel inside. The BB was the evolution of space and time, as we know them, and what transpired since. So  much so, that even the Catholic church has seen the need to recognise the BB along of course with the theory of evolution of life.

 

27 minutes ago, dad said:

Prove it.

One of the first things you learn in science is that all theories, while being the model that best suits all the available evidence at that time, are never set in concrete and always open for changes, modifications, and/or scrapping altogether. It aligns with our observational and experimental data at any one time, not just faith.

27 minutes ago, dad said:

You thought your religion got to define what reasonable was? Ha.

Wrong! Your religion as I suggested, simply has you ignoring all the evidence and the scientific methodology and logic that goes with it.

 

Edited by beecee

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53 minutes ago, dad said:

We do have time here in the fishbowl actually. It very much affects all we see. the speed of light, for example!

As you have admitted, we know the rules “in the fishbowl” i.e. there is nothing about local spacetime that would change the behavior of the signal. If anything happens in transit, we should see it.

What we don’t see is a change in behavior while in transit that’s inconsistent with the laws being universal.

 

53 minutes ago, dad said:

By the way, you claim that if time was different how do you propose that you would observe this!?

That would be up to anyone who claims that time is different.

 

53 minutes ago, dad said:

Time should appear but does not!
 

Show us the math.

53 minutes ago, dad said:

They call is space or distance only. You see they take a huge swath of this fishbowl (solar system area) and then try to imagine it does not involve or include time! They draw a line to a star as if time and space were homogeneous. Unless they are, the measure is worthless. Since you don't seem to be able to prove that time is the same out there (or space) the claimed distances to stars and sizes etc are worthless.

All the evidence is that time and space are homogeneous 

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34 minutes ago, beecee said:
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I don't indulge in fables, myths or conspiracy no matter how warm and fuzzy it makes me feel inside.

Then feel free to support the claims as science.

 

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The BB was the evolution of space and time, as we know them, and what transpired since.

Nice story. You have seen no time but in the fishbowl. No space either. In both cases you do not even know what they are! Your claim they 'evolved' in some fantasy far away and long ago is a fable and unsupportable.

 

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So  much so, that even the Catholic church has seen the need to recognise the BB along of course with the theory of evolution of life.

Meaningless. Like we'd ask a priest, a plumber a politician or a pedophile?

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One of the first things you learn in science is that all theories, while being the model that best suits all the available evidence at that time, are never set in concrete and always open for changes, modifications, and/or scrapping altogether. It aligns with our observational and experimental data at any one time, not just faith.

 You should learn how to say I don't really know.

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Wrong! Your religion as I suggested, simply has you ignoring all the evidence and the scientific methodology and logic that goes with it.

Nothing to ignore. You have not shown that time is the same in the far universe. Why pretend?

 

1 hour ago, MigL said:

You made a promise on Apr 15, 2016...

"Because of biased unfair lying mods I am closing my profile account now."

And you've broken that promise.
Very un-Christian of you.

We don't come to your Christian forum and argue without faith
Why do you need to come to our Science forum and argue with no  evidence.

Changed my mind. You have another chance. four years  is a long time.

32 minutes ago, swansont said:
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As you have admitted, we know the rules “in the fishbowl” i.e. there is nothing about local spacetime that would change the behavior of the signal. If anything happens in transit, we should see it.

In other words you admit knowing what time is like here, but not anywhere else. Yout approach and special appeal is basically 'hey, it is like that in the fishbowl so it golly gee must be the same in all the universe;.

 

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What we don’t see is a change in behavior while in transit that’s inconsistent with the laws being universal.

Forget laws, we were talking about time. You cannot see time.

So make no claims that time is the same everywhere.

 

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Show us the math.

Easy. Here it is..  ?=? Now admit it.

 

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All the evidence is that time and space are homogeneous 

Except you forgot to post...any at all! So what we should believe blindly what you believe??

 

1 hour ago, MigL said:

You made a promise on Apr 15, 2016...

"Because of biased unfair lying mods I am closing my profile account now."

And you've broken that promise.
Very un-Christian of you.

We don't come to your Christian forum and argue without faith
Why do you need to come to our Science forum and argue with no  evidence.

By the way I find it just as easy to get cowardly liars and phonies to ban me rather than doing the work myself.  They like to call anything out of their belief system personal views or whatever. That is because they cannot honestly debate and have no case and can'r debate worth a darn, and are biased and ignorant while pretending they represent knowledge or actual science.

Edited by dad

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2 hours ago, dad said:

Then feel free to support the claims as science.

I support that which is backed by the observational and experimental evidence.

2 hours ago, dad said:

Nice story. You have seen no time but in the fishbowl. No space either. In both cases you do not even know what they are! Your claim they 'evolved' in some fantasy far away and long ago is a fable and unsupportable.

It's a model, that is overwhelmingly  supported by four main observational pillars. The fantasy I leave for you. TIP: Learn some science and how and why theories are constructed. 

2 hours ago, dad said:

Meaningless. Like we'd ask a priest, a plumber a politician or a pedophile?

If you did some research, you would know it was a Belgian priest who is known as the father of the BB. He was an astronomer  as well, and as you would have known if you checked, the Catholic church has numerous scientists serving. The recognition of the BB and theory of the evolution of life are a result.

2 hours ago, dad said:

You should learn how to say I don't really know.

Again, perhaps you need to research what a scientific theory really is, and how it gains in certainty, as it continues to match the observational and experimental data...eg: GR and the discovery of gravitational waves from billions of L/years distant. In fact that certainty is now fact with the evolution of life. Are you doubting the theory of gravity? Because its still "only" a theory. 

2 hours ago, dad said:

Nothing to ignore. You have not shown that time is the same in the far universe. Why pretend?

The case for space and time is a logical, common sense application of the BB, and GR,  and what we know has transpired since. As mentioned before Intervals of space and time considered separately are not the same for all observers, due to the consistency/invariance of the speed of light. Yes, we have evidence to support that, GPS satellites for one and the allowances made in line with GR. 

We again have no reason, or application of logic to doubt that time will always pass at 1 second per second within any FoR, when observed from that frame. Learn some science, would be great for you and your attitude.

2 hours ago, dad said:

Forget laws, meaningless etc etc

Is this the only way you can justify whatever mythical beliefs you have? Forget laws, meaningless and other nonsensical derisive  claims?

The laws of physics are indisputable. Scientific theories are the highest accolade science achieves, the scientific method is an application of logic. You seem to doubt all, but only have unsupported rhetoric to support it.

4 hours ago, dad said:

Forget physical space you made that up.

No space exists observationaly everywhere we look...the space between stars and planets etc.

 

4 hours ago, dad said:

You don't know what space is either!

Yep, just told you.

 

4 hours ago, dad said:

I suggest you tell us how anything about time translation symetry applies to deep space. Otherwise do not bring it up again. Define 'physical' space and then prove it also exists in the fringes of the universe?

You have already been told about proof in science. So far the observable universe is around 94 billion L/years in diameter of space, and we have absolutely no reason to doubt that allowing for time dilation and length contraction, that the space at our observable horizon is the same as the space between Earth and Mars.

Edited by beecee

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18 minutes ago, beecee said:
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I support that which is backed by the observational and experimental evidence.

Then start anytime pal. I see nothing yet that even relates to what time is like in the distant universe.

 

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It's a model, that is overwhelmingly  supported by four main observational pillars. The fantasy I leave for you. TIP: Learn some science and how and why theories are constructed. 

You have ONE observation point in all the universe. Nothing supports that time is the same in the whole universe, and you have posted nothing.

 

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If you did some research, you would know it was a Belgian priest who is known as the father of the BB.

You serious?? That is not news and who cares?

 

 

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Again, perhaps you need to research what a scientific theory really is, and how it gains in certainty, as it continues to match the observational and experimental data...eg: GR and the discovery of gravitational waves from billions of L/years distant. In fact that certainty is now fact with the evolution of life. Are you doubting the theory of gravity? Because its still "only" a theory. 

There is light that gets bent out there. Apparently it seems like it must be gravity that had to have bent it. Nothing out there exists that could bend light eh? As for gravity, we need to know actual distances to stars to get the size and mass etc. That way we might have some inkling as to how much gravity is actually at work! Sorry, your religion is circular and belief based. Sorry you thought it was actual science.

 

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The case for space and time is a logical, common sense application of the BB, and GR, 

 

In other words you try to apply fishbowl time to the unknown universe. You also try to apply fishbowl space. Neither are known to exist in all the universe that is only believed. Period. As for GR that is relative to the fishbowl only. It doesn't even deal with what time actually is in any event!

 

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and what we know has transpired since. As mentioned before Intervals of space and time considered separately are not the same for all observers, due to the consistency/invariance of the speed of light.

You have only one observer. One observation point in all the universe. You have just projected!

 

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Yes, we have evidence to support that, GPS satellites for one and the allowances made in line with GR. 

Irellevant since the fishbowl is not in question or how space and time here work here!

 

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We again have no reason, or application of logic to doubt that time will always pass at 1 second per second within any FoR, when observed from that frame. Learn some science, would be great for you and your attitude.

 

In other words you have no clue whatsoever about any time out of the fishbowl. No fishbowl logic or doubt or belief matters!

 

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The laws of physics are indisputable.

Show how time is a law of physics!? Get real.

 

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No space exists observationaly everywhere we look...the space between stars and planets etc.

? No space exists? What would you call where the stars are...strawberry custard?

 

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You have already been told about proof in science.

You have been told to stop peddling your beliefs as science. Of course no proof exists that time is the same in all the universe. Your problem is that no evidence exists either. No tests. No observations!

 

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So far the observable universe is around 94 billion L/years in diameter of space,

Foolish dream and unsupportable religion.

 

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and we have absolutely no reason to doubt that allowing for time dilation and length contraction, that the space at our observable horizon is the same as the space between Earth and Mars.

No one cares what you doubt or believe! The issue is whether you know time is the same in all the universe. You do not. Period.

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Since I can't see inside dad's head, I can't assume he has a brain exactly like everyone else.

So, I propose it's made of green cheese.

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!

Moderator Note

You were told in 2016 to stop bringing this up. It is clear you haven't changed in your inability to parse basic science and denial of reality in the face of actual evidence, so that mandate still stands. 

 

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