Woman loses tribunal over transgender tweets (and defended by JK Rowling)

[StringJunky]

The story: 

Quote

A woman who lost her job after saying that people cannot change their biological sex has lost an employment tribunal.

Maya Forstater, 45, did not have her contract renewed after posting a series of tweets questioning government plans to let people declare their own gender.

Ms Forstater believes trans women holding certificates that recognise their transgender identity cannot describe themselves as women.

But that view is "not worthy of respect in a democratic society", a judge said.\

Ms Forstater, who had worked as a tax expert at the think tank Center for Global Development, was not entitled to ignore the rights of a transgender person and the "enormous pain that can be caused by misgendering", employment judge James Tayler said.  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50858919

Rowling's  response:

\

https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1207646162813100033

Comments?

[swansont]

I think a lot of older folks have a hard time with the concept.

One underlying issue is that we're taught some basic stuff in school, but the actual science is more complicated and subtle. We see it here all the time, in less socially-charged situations, when people insist on something based solely on e.g. classical/Newtonian physics, and ignore the fact that relativity and QM exist. They don't appreciate the fact that they are ignorant, and have no concept of the depth of their ignorance.

Even though I have some difficulty in appreciating some of the subtlety surrounding sex and gender, I have heard smart people explain it, so at least I recognize that "X chromosome, Y chromosome" is not the end-all, be-all of the discussion, and that this is real: it's a spectrum, rather than being binary. But that's partially because I know this "you only learn the tip of the iceberg in high school" to be true about physics, so it's not hard to recognize it must also be true in biology.

However, I have no idea if that is the source of Ms. Rowling's position, since other effects can come into play, such as religious teachings crowding out and/or ossifying capability for processing new and better information.

[StringJunky]

17 minutes ago, swansont said:

I think a lot of older folks have a hard time with the concept.

One underlying issue is that we're taught some basic stuff in school, but the actual science is more complicated and subtle. We see it here all the time, in less socially-charged situations, when people insist on something based solely on e.g. classical/Newtonian physics, and ignore the fact that relativity and QM exist. They don't appreciate the fact that they are ignorant, and have no concept of the depth of their ignorance.

Even though I have some difficulty in appreciating some of the subtlety surrounding sex and gender, I have heard smart people explain it, so at least I recognize that "X chromosome, Y chromosome" is not the end-all, be-all of the discussion, and that this is real: it's a spectrum, rather than being binary. But that's partially because I know this "you only learn the tip of the iceberg in high school" to be true about physics, so it's not hard to recognize it must also be true in biology.

However, I have no idea if that is the source of Ms. Rowling's position, since other effects can come into play, such as religious teachings crowding out and/or ossifying capability for processing new and better information.

Your analogy with Newtonian and the later ideas is a good one. I like your summary. 

Edited December 20, 2019 by StringJunky

[iNow]

For decades, love between people of different skin color was considered wrong and people misunderstood or attacked it. Then, those who opposed it were seen as wrong and society changed. 

For decades, love between people with the same private parts was considered wrong and people misunderstood or attacked it. Then, those who opposed it were seen as wrong and society changed. 

Likewise now with transgender issues... so much is considered wrong and people often misunderstand or attack it. People cling to past ideas and it’s a struggle to embrace new ones. Slowly, those who oppose it will be seen as wrong and society will change. 

This is all part of that change... people in good conscience speak out against the coming change and are sometimes punished when society has advanced further on the topic than they have. People can no longer use the N-word without sanction, or call a homosexual a fag without punishment. That’s a good thing, and it’s happening now when people wrongly continue to suggest there are only 2 genders, or when folks like Rowling defend those who do.

Progress tends to increase and those who oppose it eventually tend to shrink in numbers. See also: climate change denial and opposition to marijuana. 

Edited December 20, 2019 by iNow

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

For decades, love between people of different skin color was considered wrong and people misunderstood or attacked it. Then, those who opposed it were seen as wrong and society changed. 

For decades, love between people with the same private parts was considered wrong and people misunderstood or attacked it. Then, those who opposed it were seen as wrong and society changed. 

Likewise now with transgender issues... so much is considered wrong and people often misunderstand or attack it. People cling to past ideas and it’s a struggle to embrace new ones. Slowly, those who oppose it will be seen as wrong and society will change. 

This is all part of that change... people in good conscience speak out against the coming change and are sometimes punished when society has advanced further on the topic than they have. People can no longer use the N-word without sanction, or call a homosexual a fag without punishment. That’s a good thing, and it’s happening now when people wrongly continue to suggest there are only 2 genders, or when folks like Rowling defend those who do.

Progress tends to increase and those who oppose it eventually tend to shrink in numbers. See also: climate change denial and opposition to marijuana. 

Yes, that's the way change occurs.

[MigL]

Just to consider the opposing view, because being blindered is never a good thing.
( and also, then there is no discussion )

When does the 'spectrum' stop being a real thing and become someone's mental creation.
Or to use Swansont's analogy, if we can say that the spectrum of concepts for gravity is not only Newtonian, but encompasses GR, does that mean SString theory is also part of the actual spectrum ?
Or is it simply a mental creation, waiting for experimental/observational confirmation ( if it ever comes ) ?

Edit:
Not that it makes any difference to me what others do to feel fulfilled in life, but as a 'scientist', I abhor the idea that if something subjectively 'feels' right, it must be right. IE if I feel like a he/she/it/whatever then that IS what I am.

Edited December 20, 2019 by MigL

[koti]

16 minutes ago, MigL said:

Edit: Not that it makes any difference to me what others do to feel fulfilled in life, but as a 'scientist', I abhor the idea that if something subjectively 'feels' right, it must be right. IE if I feel like a he/she/it/whatever then that IS what I am.

So if you feel youre an excavator or a fire truck and I point out that youre a single malt drinkig Canadian, do I get to loose my job in a tribunal?

[StringJunky]

26 minutes ago, koti said:

So if you feel youre an excavator or a fire truck and I point out that youre a single malt drinkig Canadian, do I get to loose my job in a tribunal?

If it's your legally obligatory duty to serve a single-malt-drinking-Canadian-that-feels-they-are-an-excavator-or-truck then it must be in an equitable and accommodating  manner, in line with  your other clients. When a person's rights are enshrined in law you don't get to treat them differently.

Edited December 20, 2019 by StringJunky

[zapatos]

51 minutes ago, MigL said:

When does the 'spectrum' stop being a real thing and become someone's mental creation.

When there is no evidence.

There is evidence that "gender" is more complicated than the binary "either male or female".

[dimreepr]

It doesn't mean you get to take it out of context.

[zapatos]

What did I take out of context?

[dimreepr]

I didn't quote you.

[zapatos]

You didn't quote me there either. So I guess that also wasn't meant for me.

[dimreepr]

5 minutes ago, zapatos said:

You didn't quote me there either. So I guess that also wasn't meant for me.

no

[zapatos]

Do you purposely try to make things difficult?

[iNow]

Dimreepr rejects the binary idea of coherence/incoherence in posts

 

 

 

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Just to consider the opposing view, because being blindered is never a good thing.
( and also, then there is no discussion )

When does the 'spectrum' stop being a real thing and become someone's mental creation.
Or to use Swansont's analogy, if we can say that the spectrum of concepts for gravity is not only Newtonian, but encompasses GR, does that mean SString theory is also part of the actual spectrum ?
Or is it simply a mental creation, waiting for experimental/observational confirmation ( if it ever comes ) ?

Edit:
Not that it makes any difference to me what others do to feel fulfilled in life, but as a 'scientist', I abhor the idea that if something subjectively 'feels' right, it must be right. IE if I feel like a he/she/it/whatever then that IS what I am.

The issue that you describe is the ability to objectively measure a particular state. Note that this is true for many (if not most) biological aspects including mental/psychological states, where our understanding of the system is incomplete. It is certainly not a situation unique to gender (which does not prevent us to medicate folks, btw.).

What we do know is that some measures (such as genotyping) are insufficient to cover all the possible biological elements related to gender identity. Thus, the way I see it, we  have got two options. Either use this insufficient and declare folks to be a certain way, even knowing that this measure is imperfect. Alternatively we rely on self-reporting, which, btw. is a commonly used in medical diagnostics. The latter may also be imperfect, however, studies have shown to be positively associated with mental health and quality of life (and lower suicide risk). Now, obviously it is important but often difficult to predict for whom gender re-assignment would help or not, but the same goes for other psychological assessments.

Having two imperfect measures at hand, but having one that has shown to improve lives, the choice seems to be obvious.

1 hour ago, koti said:

So if you feel youre an excavator or a fire truck and I point out that youre a single malt drinkig Canadian, do I get to loose my job in a tribunal?

While I understand this is a joke, unfortunately it is also commonly used to disparage folks suffering from gender dysphoria and similar conditions. As swansont stated, it is one of the things that requires some un-learning what we taught to be as facts and some folks have an easier time with it, as they are confronted with such things more frequently, than others.

[MigL]

I fully understand that complying with someone's wishes may improve the quality of their lives.
And in some extreme cases, may keep them from ending that life.
I'm not going to callously suggest that we don't show common curtesy/compassion for our fellow humans.
As I said, if a little thing on my part can make someone else's life more bearable, I don't have a problem with it at all.

I don't say that all cases are due to 'mental conditions', but I would venture that at least some are, and sometimes a person's mental condition can lead them to believe things that are not good for them.

I have similar issues with 'homelessness'.
Shelter is provided for them by society, but some refuse to use them as they believe it takes away their independence.
On a night like last night, when it got down to -15 deg, I'm torn on whether they have a right to independence, or if we, as a society should violate that right, and bring them indoors.

Sometimes it is eye-opening to consider the 'other side'.
( and makes for a lively discussion )

Edited December 20, 2019 by MigL

[CharonY]

3 minutes ago, MigL said:

I don't say that all cases are due to 'mental conditions', but I would venture that at least some are, and sometimes a person's mental condition can lead them to believe things that are not good for them.

That may be the case and I understand that it can be difficult. Mental health practitioners (as well as medical specialists in certain areas) have to deal with these uncertainties and make their best judgement. But as with other such matters, it will have uncertainties. Ultimately it is almost always a compromise between the what we no (biologically or medically) what can we see (in terms of measurable outcomes including patient wellness). The big thing here in your argument that I have a problem with is basically how do we determine what is not good for them? It kind of assumes that we have trouble identifying whether the condition is "real" or due to a different condition but isn't it a symmetrical problem? I.e. if we are uncertain what else than the ultimately well-being of the patient do we have (and I would argue that it is not quite as arbitrary as you make it sound, though I would agree that mental conditions are not trivial to diagnose, either).

So as a whole if we do cannot have certainty, the most important measure is probably patient outcome. If we see that it is actually not helping (though data suggests otherwise) one may have to do something different. But if the data suggests it does help I am not sure what the justification is for denying it. 

With homelessness I feel there is a whole additional dimension that one need to explore but I am not sure whether this is the thread to do so.

[koti]

9 minutes ago, MigL said:

I fully understand that complying with someone's wishes may improve the quality of their lives.
And in some extreme cases, may keep them from ending that life.

I agree to a degree. I also believe that the strongest improvement of ones life is facing reality and standing up to it. This is the way to realy improve the quality of ones life in the long run.

3 hours ago, StringJunky said:

If it's your legally obligatory duty to serve a single-malt-drinking-Canadian-that-feels-they-are-an-excavator-or-truck then it must be in an equitable and accommodating  manner, in line with  your other clients. When a person's rights are enshrined in law you don't get to treat them differently.

I think that "law", "legally" and "obligatory" are the key points in your post. 

[StringJunky]

22 minutes ago, koti said:

I agree to a degree. I also believe that the strongest improvement of ones life is facing reality and standing up to it. This is the way to realy improve the quality of ones life in the long run.

 

Define "reality" in this context.

Quote

I think that "law", "legally" and "obligatory" are the key points in your post. 

They acquired human and social rights the same anybody else after much consideration by the appropriate fields. In time, in line with iNow's earlier post, trans will be generally accepted as just another facet of human expression.

Edited December 20, 2019 by StringJunky

[Sensei]

 In my country gender is encoded inside of personal identification number given at birth date. Is it not overt violation of rights of transgender person? What we can see on website:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identification_number

we have many countries which encode sex male, sex female, in their national identification numbers. Including ones which are quite open to gender minorities such as South Korea, Italy, Switzerland or Scotland. Norway just resigned in 2017 (so the all people born prior 2017 are still affected).

Consequence of this, is that when somebody has transgender surgical operation, has to change national personal identification number.

[koti]

53 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Define "reality" in this context.

They acquired human and social rights the same anybody else after much consideration by the appropriate fields. In time, in line with iNow's earlier post, trans will be generally accepted as just another facet of human expression.

I guess reality in this context is what law makers make. 

When saying "They", I presume you mean transgender people?
If someone says to me in the workplace that I'm a fat f and I should get my act together and go loose some weight I have several options - I can deflect with blaming my spine operation, I can hissy fit, turn around and walk away, I can stand my fat f ground and defend by trying to get the person in trouble or I can tell him/her (amongst many other options I havent listed) - youre right, keep telling me that everyday untill I finally start dieting and training again. I had a very smiliar discussion with a young lesbian couple few years back at my place during a party back when I was single. Not surprisingly, we came into a very strong agreement.

13 minutes ago, Sensei said:

 In my country gender is encoded inside of personal identification number given at birth date. Is it not overt violation of rights of transgender person?

Definitely its a violation and if you think it works for you I think you should definitely sue them Sensei. In fact I’m surprised new borns or their parent are not sueing every day. 

Edited December 20, 2019 by koti

[Sensei]

17 minutes ago, koti said:

Definitely its a violation and if you think it works for you I think you should definitely sue them Sensei. 

Unlike what some people believe, no, I am not one of LGBT community. I just sympathize with them, understanding and accepting their difference. On numerous occasions on this forum, I was even trying to explain how some of them were created the way they are..

ps. "Suing people" is definitely not the way I "work"..

Edited December 20, 2019 by Sensei

[koti]

2 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Unlike what some people believe, no, I am not one of LGBT community. I just sympathize with them, understanding and accepting their difference. On numerous occasions on this forum, I was even trying to explain how some of them were created the way they are..

It was a joke Sensei. And I absolutely do not doubt that youre very deep into this subject and youre an expert on it. Please do tutor me.