cladking Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 You can be quite certain there is free will. Reality is an infinite number of orders of magnitude too chaotic for consciousness to be driven by any sort of chemical reaction or mechanical process. The belief in preordination and predeterminism is caused by a belief in perception and physical "law". Apropos of nothing in particular you'll never see anyone who believes there is no free will lie down in front of a train to prove his point. -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensei Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 14 minutes ago, cladking said: You can be quite certain there is free will. ..some people after natural or unnatural disaster, accident, death of family member, say "God's will!" or "Allah's will!" (which is the same)... so, apparently, they are disagreeing with you.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 1 hour ago, cladking said: Apropos of nothing in particular you'll never see anyone who believes there is no free will lie down in front of a train to prove his point. Maybe because that has nothing to do with free will. Oddly, you'll never see anyone who believes there is free will lie down in front of a train to prove their point, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonScientist Posted December 18, 2019 Author Share Posted December 18, 2019 I’ve been watching and reading a lot of stuff on this, and I conclude (for now) that it’s an axiom and a dead end topic. It leads to tons of riddles and paradoxes we don’t seem capable of solving. I just have to figure out a way to get this topic off my mind, because it’s literally driving me crazy. I’ve been in an existential crisis and funk for the past three days that has probably been the most uncomfortable of my life. I want it to end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 What's stopping you from ending your funk and existential crisis now? I’m reminded of an old saying... did you really have a bad day, or did you just have a bad 5 minutes that you milked all day. Will your worry make things better? If no, then there is no use worrying. If yes, then there’s still no need to worry. It’s a waste of your time and health. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensei Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 "bad day" had dinosaurs ~ 65 millions years ago when they extinct.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cladking Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 4 hours ago, Sensei said: ..some people after natural or unnatural disaster, accident, death of family member, say "God's will!" or "Allah's will!" (which is the same)... so, apparently, they are disagreeing with you.. What any individual believes has no bearing on whether or not free will exists. It's irrelevant whether or not a Deity exists. 3 hours ago, Strange said: Maybe because that has nothing to do with free will. Oddly, you'll never see anyone who believes there is free will lie down in front of a train to prove their point, either. If there's no free will what is stopping people from harming themselves? There are plenty of miserable people yet very few wait for the train on its tracks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonScientist Posted December 18, 2019 Author Share Posted December 18, 2019 2 hours ago, iNow said: What's stopping you from ending your funk and existential crisis now? I’m reminded of an old saying... did you really have a bad day, or did you just have a bad 5 minutes that you milked all day. Will your worry make things better? If no, then there is no use worrying. If yes, then there’s still no need to worry. It’s a waste of your time and health. I’m basically over it now. I thought about it, and I decided that this thought having control over me is depleting my free will. If I have free will, then I can will myself into feeling better. I DO genuinely believe in free will. Like I said before, will is not the same as ability. Throughout this funk I’ve been in, my will was to stop the funk, but I lacked the ability for a bit. But eventually I started overcoming it. I actually don’t think determinism in itself means there is no free will. I could be consciously deciding my every thought/action, but it could still be determined by the laws of physics. I’m also going to keep researching this “backwards time referral” concept. It has been demonstrated in studies before. It’s very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 And yet you’ve remained in a funk for days without the ability to escape it. What type of freedom is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonScientist Posted December 18, 2019 Author Share Posted December 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, iNow said: And yet you’ve remained in a funk for days without the ability to escape it. What type of freedom is that? No. I just said I’m better now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensei Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 5 minutes ago, NonScientist said: No. I just said I’m better now. Is that example of lack of free will? i.e. somebody forced you to have better feeling.. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonScientist Posted December 18, 2019 Author Share Posted December 18, 2019 5 minutes ago, Sensei said: Is that example of lack of free will? i.e. somebody forced you to have better feeling.. ? No, I convinced myself. I fought the harsh feelings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajrussel Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, NonScientist said: No, I convinced myself. I fought the harsh feelings. You resisted? Isn’t that in itself evidence of free will? You used the word convinced presumably against an overwhelming compulsion. Isn’t that in itself evidence of free will? I’m sorry if I’m being redundant? I thought of the Borg. Resistance is futile. Maybe not the most scientific approach? An imaginary species that states you have no free will, don’t resist, yet what is resistance if not free will? The compulsion was no longer controlling, the moment you convinced yourself to act in a manner that showed Free will. Edited December 18, 2019 by jajrussel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel123456 Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 Personally when I throw a coin to make a choice I do exactly the contrary, but not always. I don't like a coin taking a decision for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajrussel Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 The question and answer may hinge on weather you have a choice. I recently faced an event where I willed an outcome knowing full well that consciously l had no choice I would liken it to a coin toss I didn't care for it either. Post theory is that I had plenty of choices but made all the wrong ones, so maybe it wasn't as simple as a coin toss? Maybe it never really is? Now I presumably have free will again, but they keep underscoring that at any second now, maybe not! Hmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 The idea of choice is really seductive, but when it comes with its own tyranny one has to question its value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonScientist Posted December 21, 2019 Author Share Posted December 21, 2019 Well, I have to say, after my week of delving into the scientific research and philosophy that has been done on free will, I’ve come out of it with a more confident belief in free will. I’ve also come to reject the notion that “billiard ball”, newtonian determinism can account for everything in the universe, which it clearly cannot, and no one disputes this. I’ve also done quite a bit of looking into this “backward time referral” phenomenon, and it sure enough is very real, and has been replicated in probably a dozen different neuroscience studies that I’ve read so far, including the famous Libet study. The Libet study also included experiments where (and I’m summarizing sloppily) Libet placed electrodes on the exposed brain of neurosurgery patients, and viewed their brain activity on EEG. He then conducted tests where he would stimulate a part of the person’s brain, and he noted that if the stimulation was sustained for 500ms, then there would be a conscious experience at the 30ms mark. He discovered that the 500ms of stimulation was the length of time required for “neuronal adequacy”. But he found that if stimulation was cut short of 500ms, then there would be no conscious experience at the 30ms mark. This is very strange, because seemingly the way to interpret this is that the conscious mind must know ahead of time whether or not neuronal adequacy will be achieved. If it isn’t, then the mind seems to not refer a subjective conscious experience. This at the very least brings the belief that consciousness is “epiphenomenal” and “illusory” into question. But Libet himself concluded that our conscious mind actually lives in the near future, and refers our subjective experience backwards in time to the marker of each moment we experience (i.e. backward causality). This conclusion was actually never refuted. Some scientists were baffled by it, but no one has disputed this finding. Libet also concluded that, while he still believed that the conscious mind was emerged from the physical brain, he believed his study showed that the mind is distinct from the physical brain. He concluded that the subjective referrals came entirely from the conscious mind, and that there was no evident neuronal basis to them. The backwards time referral phenomenon was also demonstrated other studies (and again I’m sloppily summarizing) which showed subjects various stimuli on the screen, and the subject’s showed the relating brain activity several seconds before the stimuli even appeared on the screen. For me, this clearly means free will is real, but at the very least you can say this is interesting stuff. It shows that at least “billiard ball” determinism is not the whole picture in the universe, and if we showed that the mind ran on separate laws, it wouldn’t be the first time we’ve discovered a separate set of physical laws from Newtonian mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajrussel Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 I just faced one of those of course you have a a right to choose speeches. I did not say no, exactly.what I said is that I want to wait and think about it. Their response I assume was a standard legal response. They changed the wording from chose to refused so I felt pressured to change this apparently foolish choice I had made immediately. They also, started citing policy that prevented me from participating in a program I was already participating in. They talk a good game, but there is only a similitude of free will designed to please the masses. Which can,so will be manipulated to control the individual. There is no free will in that manner. You can make choices. A teacher once taught me that. You might not have control of the choices,but you can choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 2 hours ago, jajrussel said: A teacher once taught me that. You might not have control of the choices,but you can choose. Yes, but which one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dissily Mordentroge Posted February 15, 2020 Share Posted February 15, 2020 On 12/16/2019 at 12:34 PM, NonScientist said: Okay, so I’m new here. Hi everyone. So I’m not sure why this is affecting me this severely, but I recently discovered the whole “free will vs. determinism” question, and I’ve realized quickly that I should’ve never been introduced to this idea, because I’m finding it almost impossible to deal with the notion of not having free will. It has sent my mind into this state of extreme shock, agony, and despair that almost seems insurmountable. It’s like my whole world and everything I believed has been flipped on its head. I’m serious in saying that this has sent me into a straight panic and shock. I feel like I’m having this nervous breakdown. It’s an overwhelming feeling. I’m trying to keep myself calm and just relax, but this has really messed me up. Does anyone here believe in free will? Or can offer any good defenses or arguments for free will? I feel like I need to be reassured that there is free will or else I won’t be able to deal with it. The idea that everything is predetermined, and I’m just robot with no agency or ability to do otherwise is more than my psyche can handle. I’m sort of in this crisis. Anyone claiming there’s no such thing as free will is is ‘forced’ to hold that view given the nature if such a claim. Therefore those of us who imagine we have some choice in our thoughts and actions have absolutely no need to accept totally determinist assertions given those making them didn’t either. Simple really. Then there are the moral implications of such claims. They can be used as a universal ‘get out of jail free’ card. No matter how horrifying an action none of us has choice in our actions. Therefore if the criminal justice system and/or anything like a generally accepted moral code is to survive the ‘delusion’ of free will has to be accepted. As to your question "Does anyone here believe in free will?” those who claim there’s no such thing as free will need to reflect upon even bothering to post here. Why bother if you had no choice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 (edited) Just because it results in difficult considerations in our punishment approach and justice system doesn’t mean free will itself is anything more than a postdictive illusion. You cite possible downstream consequences as a reason to reject the validity of the upstream conclusion. That’s illogical and they’re irrelevant. 2 hours ago, Dissily Mordentroge said: Why bother if you had no choice? Because there would be no functional difference in our experience. Whether or not we have free will, the way we perceive the world around us is largely unchanged. Why bother breathing if you have no choice is a similarly absurd question. Edited February 16, 2020 by iNow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 3 hours ago, Dissily Mordentroge said: Then there are the moral implications of such claims. They can be used as a universal ‘get out of jail free’ card. No matter how horrifying an action none of us has choice in our actions. Not on this planet. AFAIK arguing determinism has never gotten anyone off the hook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dissily Mordentroge Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 29 minutes ago, zapatos said: Not on this planet. AFAIK arguing determinism has never gotten anyone off the hook. It appears a number of ‘philosophers’ who argue strict determinsm imagine we’re all ‘off the hook’. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, Dissily Mordentroge said: It appears a number of ‘philosophers’ who argue strict determinsm imagine we’re all ‘off the hook’. Which hook do they claim they are getting off? With the law? God? The wife they are cheating on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dissily Mordentroge Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 1 hour ago, iNow said: Just because it results in difficult considerations in our punishment approach and justice system doesn’t mean free will itself is anything more than a postdictive illusion.[/quote] And what has you imagining your statements are ever anything more than postdictive illusions? You cite possible downstream consequences as a reason to reject the validity of the upstream conclusion. That’s illogical and they’re irrelevant. Because there would be no functional difference in our experience. Whether or not we have free will, the way we perceive the world around us is largely unchanged. Why bother breathing if you have no choice is a similarly absurd question. Don’t want you to try his little empirical trial on yourself but there are ways you can ‘voluntarily’ cease breathing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now