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How can we further improve humanity.


NoIdentificationProvided
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On 10/10/2019 at 3:03 PM, Phi for All said:

I think there will always be some evil around, but I agree that obsession with money is hurting our global development. Rather than do away with it, I'm more of a fan of using it as the tool it is. Rather than doing away with it, I think we'd be smarter to use all our economic tools rather than just private ownership. We should remember that democracies were established partly so the People could own part of their lives, so the King/Queen didn't own everything. 

I also agree that education is more important than ever. Our biggest flaw in modern times is that we don't know what we don't know. Ignorance encourages emotional reactions that often run counter to critical thinking. How great would it be for all people to use reason first, then get emotional about THAT?

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=star+trek+the+first+contact+no+money+you+mean+you+don't+get+paid

 

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3 hours ago, NoIdentificationProvided said:

True. Now say this sentence to the other 7 billion people on the planet. And let them accept it.

Good intention, implausible solution.

I think India's glad mr Gandhi didn't think that was an obsticle; or mr Mandela, or miss Thunberg etc...

Excuses are never a reason.

Edited by dimreepr
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34 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I think India's glad mr Gandhi didn't think that was an obsticle; or mr Mandela, or miss Thunberg etc...

Excuses are never a reason.

You said, can't we all do that.

 Yes a few notable people have stood out through the ages, but that's exactly what makes them notable.

Humans are designed to be lazy. It takes a lot of willpower to accomplish great things. Nor everyone has that.

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24 minutes ago, NoIdentificationProvided said:

You said, can't we all do that.

 Yes a few notable people have stood out through the ages, but that's exactly what makes them notable.

Humans are designed to be lazy. It takes a lot of willpower to accomplish great things. Nor everyone has that.

But we're all capable of being a little less lazy.

They are notable for their message not their work rate and we're all capable of relaying a message, unless we have a reason why we aren't, like mutism etc.; but even a mute tries to comunicate.

I wouldn't ask anyone to do anything they can't, I do ask that everyone does a little more than yesterday to improve tomorrow for everyone. 

A little over one, times 7 billion is a really big number.

Edited by dimreepr
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1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

But we're all capable of being a little less lazy.

They are notable for their message not their work rate and we're all capable of relaying a message, unless we have a reason why we aren't, like mutism etc.; but even a mute tries to comunicate.

I wouldn't ask anyone to do anything they can't, I do ask that everyone does a little more than yesterday to improve tomorrow for everyone. 

A little over one, times 7 billion is a really big number.

....Are you being real right now?

I need an actual method not a speech.

Humanity's had tons of those.

We just seem to be deaf don't we?

I'm sorry for my tone, but people aren't angels and I dislike when people seem to think that. We are greedy at our cores. We don't need a reason not to improve.

We just won't if it's inconvenient.

That and the whole world war thing that kind of scared governments but that's another topic.

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On 10/15/2019 at 3:10 AM, Airbrush said:

Improve the situation for humanity on earth with less population.

Humanity is doing fine. Standards of living are amazing, compared to a hundred or two hundred years ago. For most people at any rate. But less population will improve the situation for practically every other species, except dogs and cats. Extinction of species is the one thing that really hate about the world today.

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2 hours ago, NoIdentificationProvided said:

Yes a few notable people have stood out through the ages, but that's exactly what makes them notable.

Humans are designed to be lazy. It takes a lot of willpower to accomplish great things. Nor everyone has that.

And yet, a few notable people throughout the ages still aren't enough to explain how we've become the only species capable of leaving the planet, or even understanding why it might be important.

Add in the vast majority of humans (by that I usually mean 75%+) that have enough willpower (or motivation?) to turn notable dreams into reality, and your assertion that we're designed for laziness seems unlikely. What you perceive as laziness could just be working smarter instead of harder. Humans are known for adaptations like that. 

1 hour ago, NoIdentificationProvided said:

I need an actual method not a speech.

Some have been mentioned, but you opted to make more assertions rather than comment on them. Very frustrating discussion tactic. 

I think the "speeches" are necessary to open up your perspective a bit. You seem to overgeneralize when talking about this subject. It's hard to know if you understand what we're saying when you don't respond to specific points.

The methods mentioned so far have been met with (almost) disinterest on your part, and you seem to revel in the rant more than seeking solutions. We call that soapboxing. It sort of takes the wind out of people's interest in the discussion when all the solutions get rejected, tacitly or not.

The speeches are also trying to show that perhaps things aren't as drastic as you make them out to be. I mentioned confirmation bias before, and it's a very common human trait. We get an idea in our heads, and we start selecting for those things that support it, and ignore the rest. This is the sort of thing you should be vigilant about, not some vague "willpower". If you want to have an open mind to better see reasonable options, you just need to stop making sweeping generalizations and assumptions about the world around you.

 

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11 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Some have been mentioned, but you opted to make more assertions rather than comment on them. Very frustrating discussion tactic. 

I think the "speeches" are necessary to open up your perspective a bit. You seem to overgeneralize when talking about this subject. It's hard to know if you understand what we're saying when you don't respond to specific points.

The methods mentioned so far have been met with (almost) disinterest on your part, and you seem to revel in the rant more than seeking solutions. We call that soapboxing. It sort of takes the wind out of people's interest in the discussion when all the solutions get rejected, tacitly or not.

The speeches are also trying to show that perhaps things aren't as drastic as you make them out to be. I mentioned confirmation bias before, and it's a very common human trait. We get an idea in our heads, and we start selecting for those things that support it, and ignore the rest. This is the sort of thing you should be vigilant about, not some vague "willpower". If you want to have an open mind to better see reasonable options, you just need to stop making sweeping generalizations and assumptions about the world around you.

Soapboxing huh.... I guess I didn't comment on all of the solutions offered. I have yet to state my mind on the subject of money, but I felt you had already responded to that adequately, hence I stepped out. I did respond to a few other options, eagerly waiting their responses till now. But most of the posts have been on how we are developing, which is why it seems im sticking to my view. The argument before was about optimistic improvement, everybody contributing to society. That already happens. In a far more realistic manner.

They're called jobs.

People around the world are putting in effort to change it in their own way. To be a part in a wheel of progress. Which is why I'm angered when someone says we can do better. It's essentially condemning a man's life work as everyone is already working according to the standard. I'm condemning the standard, which is why I'm being general.

I can't travel. And the amount of knowledge I can acquire on a topic like this is limited considering what I'm actually focusing on. That's why I placed this discussion on the lounge. To be discussed casually. Although my thread might be taken down after this, which I really don't care about as while this is a fun community, things like that happen.

My opinion on speeches stands. I've never believed in a speech without action. It's been very hard for me to learn because of that and has been a challenge I've been working on. But if you're going to tell me x=y, give me examples instead of just telling me.

42 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

And yet, a few notable people throughout the ages still aren't enough to explain how we've become the only species capable of leaving the planet, or even understanding why it might be important.

Add in the vast majority of humans (by that I usually mean 75%+) that have enough willpower (or motivation?) to turn notable dreams into reality, and your assertion that we're designed for laziness seems unlikely. What you perceive as laziness could just be working smarter instead of harder. Humans are known for adaptations like that. 

I don't understand biology. I admire the design of the human anatomy and hope to implement it into my future designs, but for now I can only speak like a simpleton. Forgive me for that.

Lazy might have been a stretch. Your analogy is much better.

As for the notable, which is to say, according to recent arguments, all of us... I might have seen too much of the contrary to ever believe that people are good at developing. I've never met someone who actually chased change. I've only met people who want to get a good job, want to make money, e.t.c.

I've met horrible people who've disregarded everything they've been taught for a quick thrill.

I've seen people suffering and failing to reach their dreams.

I've seen the blood flow from the shot up corpse of a brave man killed by common crooks, who are a product of this failed society

Forgive me if my view is biased, but I can't help it. I don't see development in a place that so badly needs it. Hence I don't see any sensible development.

Go to space if you want, but until you somehow manage to transform it into a habitable plot of land, overpopulation us still a problem.

Propose suitable alternatives to toxic chemicals. Until you manage to monopolize the market, we'll continue to kill our own planet without a second thought.

Propose crazy new building plans, they don't matter if they never even receive their funding, do they?

This is what I mean by lackluster development. Let science help substantially in those areas for a change.

23 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

You keep fighting evolution and I'll fight the winner...

I'm a creationist, thank you very much.

And what winner?

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2 hours ago, NoIdentificationProvided said:

Propose suitable alternatives to toxic chemicals. Until you manage to monopolize the market, we'll continue to kill our own planet without a second thought.

That's overstating the point by a billion percent. 

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On 10/16/2019 at 1:58 PM, NoIdentificationProvided said:

Humans are designed to be lazy.

Bullshit. You are using the wrong words. Organic life is trying to optimize energy. The easiest route, the smallest energy usage. If somebody invests time, money and effort, in building dam to provide energy, for further things, actually it is example of optimization of energy. Invest some energy in building device once, so device will work for you for years, instead of you in the future (or better in future generations)..

Energy spend on learning at early stage of life + energy spend on learning things which are valuable (i.e. programming, high-tech etc. etc.) << energy spend on doing nothing at primary school + having no college + having no university + having low paid job as a result of the all previously taken "optimizations" at childhood..

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Sensei said:

If somebody invests time, money and effort, in building dam to provide energy, for further things, actually it is example of optimization of energy.

That ignores the possibility that they're wrong to do so.

Let's not forget, energy is never free...

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On 10/16/2019 at 10:03 AM, NoIdentificationProvided said:

Forgive me if my view is biased, but I can't help it.

You can, though. People overcome their natural biases and their tendency to confirm them all the time. You just need to be aware that you tend towards the negative view when it comes to many subjects. Be vigilant about cherry-picking only those things that confirm what you fear or suspect. 

Try selecting for only positive events some day. Make a note of good things that happen, and ignore the bad. Having a positive outlook is hard work, and well worth it, but you have to practice. You've had a LOT of practice with the negative, so why not try this? What do you have to lose besides your pessimism?

"I can't help it" is a horrible phrase btw, and you should strike it from your vocabulary. It's one of those throwaway phrases that people say, it's rarely true, and it keeps you from even trying. 

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6 hours ago, Sensei said:

Bullshit. You are using the wrong words. Organic life is trying to optimize energy. The easiest route, the smallest energy usage. If somebody invests time, money and effort, in building dam to provide energy, for further things, actually it is example of optimization of energy. Invest some energy in building device once, so device will work for you for years, instead of you in the future (or better in future generations)..

Energy spend on learning at early stage of life + energy spend on learning things which are valuable (i.e. programming, high-tech etc. etc.) << energy spend on doing nothing at primary school + having no college + having no university + having low paid job as a result of the all previously taken "optimizations" at childhood..

 

 

I already said that wasn't the right choice of words. Phi corrected my mistake and I acknowledged it. Further discussion is demeaning.

4 hours ago, Phi for All said:

You can, though. People overcome their natural biases and their tendency to confirm them all the time. You just need to be aware that you tend towards the negative view when it comes to many subjects. Be vigilant about cherry-picking only those things that confirm what you fear or suspect. 

Try selecting for only positive events some day. Make a note of good things that happen, and ignore the bad. Having a positive outlook is hard work, and well worth it, but you have to practice. You've had a LOT of practice with the negative, so why not try this? What do you have to lose besides your pessimism?

"I can't help it" is a horrible phrase btw, and you should strike it from your vocabulary. It's one of those throwaway phrases that people say, it's rarely true, and it keeps you from even trying.

A positive outlook. It tends to obscure faults. I would much rather prefer a partner with one than change my pessimism. It helps me improve what I feel is imperfect. But your advice still has ground. I'll stay a pessimist, but I'll try to be a bit more open minded.

Now. The subject at hand. Do we rap it up or?

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On 10/16/2019 at 7:18 PM, NoIdentificationProvided said:

True. Now say this sentence to the other 7 billion people on the planet. And let them accept it.

Good intention, implausible solution.

Then maybe we should look at what contributes to that Human condition, that so many don't accept it. 

Why is personal responsibility discredited? Why is it implausible?

3 hours ago, NoIdentificationProvided said:

I already said that wasn't the right choice of words. Phi corrected my mistake and I acknowledged it. Further discussion is demeaning.

A positive outlook. It tends to obscure faults. I would much rather prefer a partner with one than change my pessimism. It helps me improve what I feel is imperfect. But your advice still has ground. I'll stay a pessimist, but I'll try to be a bit more open minded.

Now. The subject at hand. Do we rap it up or?

I don't think a positive outlook obscures faults, but allows acceptance of them.  Acceptance is needed before we can familiarise ourselves with the cause  and recognise the potential of bringing new responses.

If we don't believe there is potential in the conditions we have, 'change' is more likely to mean attacking conditions. Getting rid of those conditions, without understanding their cause. Reducing environment to 'favourable' conditions instead of causing  more favourable conditions.

Reducing environment to favourable conditions ignores diversity and perspective of locality. Does not recognise environment, which is sacrificed. That  tends to cause unforeseen problems else where. And more sacrifice of environment because positive potential isn't being sought. We aren't looking to add anything, just reduce it to an ideal of perfection that ignores response-ability.

pessimism 

Edited by naitche
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9 hours ago, naitche said:

Then maybe we should look at what contributes to that Human condition, that so many don't accept it. 

Why is personal responsibility discredited? Why is it implausible?

I don't think a positive outlook obscures faults, but allows acceptance of them.  Acceptance is needed before we can familiarise ourselves with the cause  and recognise the potential of bringing new responses.

If we don't believe there is potential in the conditions we have, 'change' is more likely to mean attacking conditions. Getting rid of those conditions, without understanding their cause. Reducing environment to 'favourable' conditions instead of causing  more favourable conditions.

Reducing environment to favourable conditions ignores diversity and perspective of locality. Does not recognise environment, which is sacrificed. That  tends to cause unforeseen problems else where. And more sacrifice of environment because positive potential isn't being sought. We aren't looking to add anything, just reduce it to an ideal of perfection that ignores response-ability.

pessimism 

Right now we're arguing optimism vs pessimism. Which goes nowhere. So I won't step in that pit if you won't.

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49 minutes ago, NoIdentificationProvided said:

Right now we're arguing optimism vs pessimism. Which goes nowhere. So I won't step in that pit if you won't.

I think it's fundamental to the topic.

A pessimistic person naturally has less inclination to think the best of their fellow man, as demonstrated by the OP, consequently he/she has less motivation to help their neighbour, which not only helps the neighbour to improve, but also automatically improves themselves.

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53 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I think it's fundamental to the topic.

A pessimistic person naturally has less inclination to think the best of their fellow man, as demonstrated by the OP, consequently he/she has less motivation to help their neighbour, which not only helps the neighbour to improve, but also automatically improves themselves.

Hmm. Putting it that way makes sense.

Optimism does have its benefits however. It allows the common man to see other possibilities, as stated earlier.

A healthy mix of both optimism and pessimism is what we're after. But as we are in a society that tends towards the latter, we may not attain this equilibrium for some time. 

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20 minutes ago, NoIdentificationProvided said:

A healthy mix of both optimism and pessimism is what we're after. But as we are in a society that tends towards the latter, we may not attain this equilibrium for some time.

I disagree with the mix, I think a healthy mix is optimism and critical thinking, for instance you can forgive your neighbour if you suspect them of stealing your apples and install a camera to check.

All I have to do is persuade one pessimist to be more optomistic; there's no more zealous advocate/teacher than an ex-smoker/pessimist.

That's where a good speech comes in handy...;)

 

Edited by dimreepr
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