Jump to content

Quick question about perpetual motion.


Deep-Fried-Thoughts

Recommended Posts

I know Perpetual motion is a losing battle, however,  i was curious what would happen if someone mounted the most effective version of a large  BHASKARA'S Wheel onto the center axle of a well constructed perpetual water mill design? Since they both  "Almost" work on their own, would it make any difference if these two designs were combined into one machine?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Deep-Fried-Thoughts said:

Since they both  "Almost" work on their own, would it make any difference if these two designs were combined into one machine?

No. It makes no difference; perpetual motion is not possible even if combining devices. The overall physical laws still applies. 

 

Edited by Ghideon
spelling
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Deep-Fried-Thoughts said:

I know Perpetual motion is a losing battle, however,  i was curious what would happen if someone mounted the most effective version of a large  BHASKARA'S Wheel onto the center axle of a well constructed perpetual water mill design? Since they both  "Almost" work on their own, would it make any difference if these two designs were combined into one machine?

 While the efficiency of the combined pair would be the result of the combined efficiency of the two devices, it wouldn't combine to improve the overall efficiency but to decrease it.

If you compound a 99% efficient device onto a another 99% efficient device, you end up with less than 99% end efficiency for the combination.  It is the loses inherent in each device that add up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll try a logical explanation with more detail without referring to math of specific laws of physics this time: 

Let's say two hypothetical devices are working perpetually* as a unit without external energy source. Perpetual motion device A feeds energy (1) into device B and then device B feeds energy (2) to device A. Since no external energy is added and operation is perpetual there is no internal energy wasted; efficiency is 100%. Device A runs from the energy provided by B and B runs from the energy provided by A.
Hence, over time, A must supply B with the same amount of energy that A would require to operate in isolation. And B must provide A with the same amount of energy B would require to run in isolation. 

So the result is that the only way the device A and B could work as a 100% efficiency perpetual motion device together is if they could do so in isolation. A and B are perpetual devices on their own or the device (A+B) is not a perpetual device.
In other words you can not build a perpetual motion device unless you have a set of perpetual motion devices.
 

image.png.d1f93cf9d4aaf022ece6db2c3a82315d.png

 

This does of course not alter the fact that perpetual motion machines is not possible. It is just a way of showing how OPs setup is not working in a general case.

 

(I answered from phone earlier and was unable to use an image. This is pretty much same as @Janus but I had started drawing already so posting probably does not harm.)

*) Not possible! Only used to setup the explanation. 

 

Edited by Ghideon
duplicated image
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...
On 9/5/2019 at 5:16 AM, Deep-Fried-Thoughts said:

I know Perpetual motion is a losing battle, however,  i was curious what would happen if someone mounted the most effective version of a large  BHASKARA'S Wheel onto the center axle of a well constructed perpetual water mill design? Since they both  "Almost" work on their own, would it make any difference if these two designs were combined into one machine?

I think that the idea of inertia is what generally gives way to the thought that Perpetual motionIs achievable. Newton’s first law? Sometimes I forget but I think it is the first law of motion?

 Gravity is the perpetual motion killer. Always acting as an opposing force to inertia. I just read another thread that spoke of gravity acting as a body force which I’m still coming to terms with which would mean that even if the objects inertia was directed toward the gravitational source at some point the gravity would act as an opposing force stopping the inertial motion, where I mean the object would come to rest. Defeating the concept of perpetual motion. I am not an expert and generally usually only have half a clue, but I am sure that if my explanation is wrong we will both learn something more 🙂.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gravity does not "always act[...] as an opposing force to inertia", which you'd know if you ever went skydiving. Gravity is a conservative force, and in a universe with just gravity, perpetual motion machines of the second kind are possible. The force that "opposes inertia" (more precisely, that equalizes velocities) is friction

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/2/2019 at 4:36 PM, uncool said:

 The force that "opposes inertia" (more precisely, that equalizes velocities) is friction

Even more generally, any dissipative process. Wind resistance being another example. Inelastic scattering, too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...
45 minutes ago, Bufofrog said:

Make an indoor wind generator out of methylene chloride?

Watch video from his other thread. The idea is simple. Heat substance with low boiling point so it will change to gaseous state and move to the other end of closed container where it will liquify. Repeat with other end.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Sensei said:

Watch video from his other thread. The idea is simple. Heat substance with low boiling point so it will change to gaseous state and move to the other end of closed container where it will liquify. Repeat with other end.

Oh, sorta like a steam cycle.  Seems like controlling the pressure would be tricky in a closed system, but that's his problem to figure out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

Methylene chloride is what's inside the drinking bird, everybody probably already knows that though.

If someone wants to run a heat engine on evaporative cooling though, I think it's more practical to use a Stirling engine.

There are a number of ways I think this one could be improved.

Not my engine or my video BTW. The guy that built this engine died  several years ago.

This engine is running on only a 2.5 °C temperature gradient.

Not many have succeeded in building a model heat engine this sensitive.

I can see there is a vent hole, which is usually needed in a diaphragm engine because it is completely sealed (no leaks around a piston), used to equalize pressure if needed. Like when the barometer falls. But I suspect, though I have no proof or any real reason to think so, that it may have been used to fill the chamber with helium.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/5/2019 at 9:30 PM, Ghideon said:

I'll try a logical explanation with more detail without referring to math of specific laws of physics this time: 

Let's say two hypothetical devices are working perpetually* as a unit without external energy source. Perpetual motion device A feeds energy (1) into device B and then device B feeds energy (2) to device A. Since no external energy is added and operation is perpetual there is no internal energy wasted; efficiency is 100%. Device A runs from the energy provided by B and B runs from the energy provided by A.
Hence, over time, A must supply B with the same amount of energy that A would require to operate in isolation. And B must provide A with the same amount of energy B would require to run in isolation. 

So the result is that the only way the device A and B could work as a 100% efficiency perpetual motion device together is if they could do so in isolation. A and B are perpetual devices on their own or the device (A+B) is not a perpetual device.
In other words you can not build a perpetual motion device unless you have a set of perpetual motion devices.
 

image.png.d1f93cf9d4aaf022ece6db2c3a82315d.png

 

This does of course not alter the fact that perpetual motion machines is not possible. It is just a way of showing how OPs setup is not working in a general case.

 

(I answered from phone earlier and was unable to use an image. This is pretty much same as @Janus but I had started drawing already so posting probably does not harm.)

*) Not possible! Only used to setup the explanation. 

 

nice +1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 5 weeks later...
  • 4 weeks later...
On 9/5/2019 at 10:16 AM, Deep-Fried-Thoughts said:

I know Perpetual motion is a losing battle, however,  i was curious what would happen if someone mounted the most effective version of a large  BHASKARA'S Wheel onto the center axle of a well constructed perpetual water mill design? Since they both  "Almost" work on their own, would it make any difference if these two designs were combined into one machine?

The nearly perpetual motion fed by another nearly perpetual  allways re charging the other to become perpetual ... ? So the power to turn an electric generator is originaly powered  by the release  of a clock work spring  turned once a year ..🤔

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Andrew William Henderson said:

The nearly perpetual motion fed by another nearly perpetual  allways re charging the other to become perpetual ... ?

That is the situation adressed in my post above (scienceforums.net/comment=1116693)

 

1 hour ago, Andrew William Henderson said:

So the power to turn an electric generator is originaly powered  by the release  of a clock work spring  turned once a year

Is that a proposal for perpetual motion? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/5/2019 at 10:30 PM, Ghideon said:

I'll try a logical explanation with more detail without referring to math of specific laws of physics this time: 

Let's say two hypothetical devices are working perpetually* as a unit without external energy source. Perpetual motion device A feeds energy (1) into device B and then device B feeds energy (2) to device A. Since no external energy is added and operation is perpetual there is no internal energy wasted; efficiency is 100%. Device A runs from the energy provided by B and B runs from the energy provided by A.
Hence, over time, A must supply B with the same amount of energy that A would require to operate in isolation. And B must provide A with the same amount of energy B would require to run in isolation. 

So the result is that the only way the device A and B could work as a 100% efficiency perpetual motion device together is if they could do so in isolation. A and B are perpetual devices on their own or the device (A+B) is not a perpetual device.
In other words you can not build a perpetual motion device unless you have a set of perpetual motion devices.
 

image.png.d1f93cf9d4aaf022ece6db2c3a82315d.png

 

This does of course not alter the fact that perpetual motion machines is not possible. It is just a way of showing how OPs setup is not working in a general case.

 

(I answered from phone earlier and was unable to use an image. This is pretty much same as @Janus but I had started drawing already so posting probably does not harm.)

*) Not possible! Only used to setup the explanation. 

 

Very elegant explanation, as well as @Janus'.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.