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Hijack from Pascal's Wager - Does this make sense?


Wulphstein

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1 minute ago, Wulphstein said:

Termites are molecular machines.  How do you get molecular machines by accident?  without planning?  

So the termites have a god too, I'm happy for them...

The question remains, why do you need god?

4 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

And please understand, I wish to be respectful and don't wish to say what I'm really thinking about your intelligence.  :)

I really don't care what you think about my limited, so called, intelligence. 

And if I may say, your idea of respectful falls far short of what the bible suggests, ie. not very charitable... :-p

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On 7/27/2019 at 10:18 AM, jimmydasaint said:

I will have to refer to the OP, before we go off on to a tangent:

If God does not exist and we follow a moral code, which, in the West, is based on the old Christian moral code, we then live a moral existence before the end of our existence.  We, as moral characters of action have had a positive effect on society.  

Um no... Where in the west are morals based on the old christians moral code? 

Edited by Moontanman
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1 minute ago, Moontanman said:

You get molecular machines via  the physics of emergent complexity. Driven by energy molecules can and will spontaneously become more complex, carbon can become life though energy powered emergent complexity. 

But how do you get the chemistry to be so stable.  I mean, if the physics constants, you'll either get protons and nothing else or you might get black holes in which nothing evolves "because it all gets destroyed by tidal forces.  Why is it in engineering you have to get hundreds of parameters to be in tight spec, or something complicated won't work.  But you can just get a stable periodic table, but accident?  I mean, that sounds more bat poo than Scientology.

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14 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

In order to believe in atheist, you have to believe in a lie, a logical inconsistency, a fraud, a conspiracy to not see the obvious? 

I think you have that the wrong way round.

https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/biblical-contradictions/

 

1 minute ago, Wulphstein said:

Why is it in engineering you have to get hundreds of parameters to be in tight spec, or something complicated won't work.  But you can just get a stable periodic table, but accident?

Most isotopes in the periodic table are not stable. But, of course, teh unstable ones have largely decayed.

So what we are left with are the stable ones.

It's a bit like evolution. The survivors survive.

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4 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Um no... Where in the west are morals based on the old christians moral code? 

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Just saying...

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18 minutes ago, Strange said:

No. 

I suppose it is obvious if you already believe in supernatural beings and magic. Not otherwise. 

And this is a good example why science does everything can to avoid "common sense" and "obvious" conclusions. What is obvious to one person may be obviously wrong to another. Hence the need for objective evidence.

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2 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

But how do you get the chemistry to be so stable.  I mean, if the physics constants, you'll either get protons and nothing else or you might get black holes in which nothing evolves "because it all gets destroyed by tidal forces.  Why is it in engineering you have to get hundreds of parameters to be in tight spec, or something complicated won't work.  But you can just get a stable periodic table, but accident?  I mean, that sounds more bat poo than Scientology.

The only honest answer I can give is we don't know and if that were the case we wouldn't be here to discuss this. We have no idea if the universe has to be just this way or if it can be different. We don't know if this the only universe or if there are an infinite number popping into existence from some multidimensional foam or if invisible pixies created it all... Simply inserting what ever woo you want into the explanation accomplishes nothing...   

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5 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

And if I may say, your idea of respectful falls far short of what the bible suggests, ie. not very charitable... :-p

No, it really doesn't.  I could of called you a viper!  But I was charitable.  :D

6 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Um no... Where in the west are morals based on the old christians moral code? 

Um, everywhere.  The West absolutely is basing it's moral code on Christians values; even if it doesn't know where they got their values.

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1 minute ago, dimreepr said:

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Just saying...

Well, for a start, "other gods are available" so it's not Christianity

 

Also; the system is based on keeping  your slaves properly, stoning adulterers and trial by ordeal?
Or, it isn't- because it's not based in Christianity.

1 minute ago, Wulphstein said:

No, it really doesn't.  I could of called you a viper!  But I was charitable.  :D

Um, everywhere.  The West absolutely is basing it's moral code on Christians values; even if it doesn't know where they got their values.

See above.

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28 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

Please explain what evolution has to do with design by somebody smart?

Absolutely nothing. That is the point. No designer is required.

23 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

I mean, let's be honest.  In order to believe in atheist, you have to believe in a lie, a logical inconsistency, a fraud, a conspiracy to not see the obvious? 

Nope. And atheism isn't a belief, any more than not playing golf is a sport.

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3 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Just saying...

Just saying that was inserted into the pledge in the 1950s and women's rights among other things are not biblical, we no longer stone homosexuals or unruly children or people who work on sunday or wear clothing made of mixed cloth. Religion hijacks normal moral behavior and claims it as it's own. The behavior was not invented by religion...   

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1 minute ago, John Cuthber said:

Well, for a start, "other gods are available" so it's not Christianity

Also; the system is based on keeping  your slaves properly, stoning adulterers and trial by ordeal?
Or, it isn't- because it's not based in Christianity.

I'm sorry, we really didn't need to jump down this rabbit hole.

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3 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

The only honest answer I can give is we don't know and if that were the case we wouldn't be here to discuss this. We have no idea if the universe has to be just this way or if it can be different. We don't know if this the only universe or if there are an infinite number popping into existence from some multidimensional foam or if invisible pixies created it all... Simply inserting what ever woo you want into the explanation accomplishes nothing...   

The funny thing is, there are a few who claim to have seen a pixie.  But there is zero evidence of multidimensional foam; so to claim that an infinite number of universes pop into existence is woo; and it won't get you the attention of a young pretty girl.

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4 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

No, it really doesn't.  I could of called you a viper!  But I was charitable.  :D

Um, everywhere.  The West absolutely is basing it's moral code on Christians values; even if it doesn't know where they got their values.

Really no, do you kill people who work on sunday? Does the law state that women cannot teach men? Stoned any harlots today?  

Just now, Wulphstein said:

The funny thing is, there are a few who claim to have seen a pixie.  But there is zero evidence of multidimensional foam; so to claim that an infinite number of universes pop into existence is woo; and it won't get you the attention of a young pretty girl.

These things are supported by mathematics and evidently your knowledge of pretty girls is quite limited... 

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3 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Just saying that was inserted into the pledge in the 1950s and women's rights among other things are not biblical, we no longer stone homosexuals or unruly children or people who work on sunday or wear clothing made of mixed cloth. Religion hijacks normal moral behavior and claims it as it's own. The behavior was not invented by religion...    

Morals come from GOD.  Religious is meant to teach the moral values.  Whether it can do so without violating them depends on the religion.

 

6 minutes ago, Strange said:

Nope. And atheism isn't a belief, any more than not playing golf is a sport.

Dude, you're flat earthing!  You are reasoning like a flat earther.  Nobody can tell if you're faking it, trolling or really that ...  I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are trolling.

5 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Really no, do you kill people who work on sunday? Does the law state that women cannot teach men? Stoned any harlots today?  

Here is a list of God's moral teachings. 

 

6 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Really no, do you kill people who work on sunday? Does the law state that women cannot teach men? Stoned any harlots today?   

Yeah, these are the teachings that God says were supposed to be following.  They look fine to me.  https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Morality,-And-Redemption

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9 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

The West absolutely is basing it's moral code on Christians values; even if it doesn't know where they got their values.

We really need to nail this one.

The Western world acts morally, for example,  in that it treats people as equals regardless of race  or sexuality.
And it does that in spite of Christianity not because of it.

Christian belief is not "the good guy" here.

1 minute ago, Wulphstein said:

Morals come from GOD.

They certainly do not come from religion.

However, any society without morals (with or without a religion) would fail in the long run.

 

You can get a long way with just one rule- do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

But that rule predates Christianity by millennia.

The God-squad just "appropriated" it

13 minutes ago, Strange said:

atheism isn't a belief, any more than not playing golf is a sport.

Actually, a belief is exactly what it is.

However, it's not a religion. 

It is not a thing in the same category as a religion.

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Just now, Strange said:

Why? Because I disagree with your (baseless) assumptions? 

Even scientology has a better probablitity of being right than atheism.  I mean, what are the odds of an airplane dropping a bunch of people into a volcano 10 million ago.  They're a lot better than a fine tuned universe coming into existence by accident.  If you we're as concerned about intellectual honesty as you claim to be, you'd change to Scientology.

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2 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

Actually, a belief is exactly what it is.

Maybe for some people. I don't believe in a non-god any more than I believe in a god. It is just an irrelevant concept to me (like golf). So I don't see that belief comes into it.

But if people want to believe that it is a belief, then that's fine with me!

1 minute ago, Wulphstein said:

Even scientology has a better probablitity of being right than atheism. 

Why?

How do you evaluate that probability? How do you calculate the probability that Xenu or Thor, or Allah or Zeus exists? It seems an impossible task.

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3 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

We really need to nail this one.

The Western world acts morally, for example,  in that it treats people as equals regardless of race  or sexuality.
And it does that in spite of Christianity not because of it.

Christian belief is not "the good guy" here.

9 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

Morals come from GOD.

They certainly do not come from religion.

However, any society without morals (with or without a religion) would fail in the long run.

 

You can get a long way with just one rule- do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

But that rule predates Christianity by millennia.

The God-squad just "appropriated" it

16 minutes ago, Strange said:

atheism isn't a belief, any more than not playing golf is a sport.

Actually, a belief is exactly what it is.

However, it's not a religion. 

It is not a thing in the same category as a religion.

If you are going to talk about Christian moral values, no need to CITE A SOURCE.  Don't they teach you that on the science forum?  Here is the list of moral values from the Holy Bible.

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Morality,-And-Redemption

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6 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

Morals come from GOD.  Religious is meant to teach the moral values.  Whether it can do so without violating them depends on the religion.

Citation needed... 

6 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

Here is a list of God's moral teachings. Yeah, these are the teachings that God says were supposed to be following.  They look fine to me.  https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Morality,-And-Redemption

Typical dishonest theist cherry picking, pick up a bible, read it two or three times, pay attention to what it says not what someone else says it means, get back to me when you have more than a kindergarten understanding of what it says.. 

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3 minutes ago, Strange said:

Why?

How do you evaluate that probability? How do you calculate the probability that Xenu or Thor, or Allah or Zeus exists? It seems an impossible task.

But Xenu, Thor, Allah and Zeus are not showing up in people's near death experiences!  But Jesus does!  I mean, I thought you people were scientific and intelligence, had good pattern recognition and common sense!

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2 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

If you are going to talk about Christian moral values, no need to CITE A SOURCE.  Don't they teach you that on the science forum?  Here is the list of moral values from the Holy Bible.

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Morality,-And-Redemption

Again, you are leaving out all the really nansy horrible stuff and by the way how can Atheism, a lack of belief, be a belief? 

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2 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Typical dishonest theist cherry picking, pick up a bible, read it two or three times, pay attention to what it says not what someone else says it means, get back to me when you have more than a kindergarten understanding of what it says.. 

All sides are guilty of that, the content depends on the bias.

1 minute ago, Wulphstein said:

But Xenu, Thor, Allah and Zeus are not showing up in people's near death experiences!  But Jesus does!  I mean, I thought you people were scientific and intelligence, had good pattern recognition and common sense!

Did you ask everyone? I'm still waiting for an answer to my question, I think you know which one I mean.

Or are you just a troll?

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1 minute ago, Wulphstein said:

But Xenu, Thor, Allah and Zeus are not showing up in people's near death experiences!  But Jesus does!  I mean, I thought you people were scientific and intelligence, had good pattern recognition and common sense!

Seriously, you are going to use near death experiences as evidence of gods? Jesus, Buddha, Allah, Krishna, and yes the Norse gods as well as a myriad of other "near death" experiences happen, some with no gods and most times no experience at all. A near death is an hallucination of an oxygen deprived brain. All sorts of silliness shows up. 

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