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Hijack from Pascal's Wager - Does this make sense?


Wulphstein

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I would just argue that the database of near death experiences gives you a pretty good idea of what the afterlife and eternity are going to be like.  To find happiness, a good Godly happiness based on loving thy neighbor, you're going to have to open your feelers, open your psychic sensitivities to feel the spiritual energies (without bias against them) to the loving heart of Infinite Consciousness.  God loves you and you are part of GOD, the way a group of cells in your body is a part of you.  Thou shall love the cells and cellular machinery that gave you life in this physical world.  God gave you life in the spiritual world. 

If you are an atheist, stop denying GOD.  This physical universe wouldn't be here if someone didn't figure out what physics constants were required to get good stable Elements in sufficient quantities to lead to complex biology and all that cellular machinery.  You gotta think of this:  it took a godlike being with godlike intelligence to figure out how to get micromachinery made of atoms and molecules to come from a set of physics constants!  It's like throwing a bomb that explodes and turns into little nano robots that group together into life!  What kind of intelligence would think that nanorobots could just happen by accident where all of the physics constants were just set by accident in such a way that an giant explosion would lead to molecular life?  What kind of IQ would someone have to have to believe that all of this was an accident?  Or maybe it took 10^10^147 accidents before finally happening?  I don't wish to insult anyone's intelligence the way that "belief in atheism" insults mine.  You are better off believing in unicorns than in atheism; at least you would be cute, funny, and fun to have around.  And the girls would like you, or whatever you're into.  I don't care what your motivations are for not believing in God.  It's a belief that is unsupported with facts, and it's nuttier than nutty butter. 

If you don't like God, then just admit it.  You think God is a jerk! 

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1 minute ago, Wulphstein said:

I would just argue that the database of near death experiences gives you a pretty good idea of what the afterlife and eternity are going to be like. 

I think all we can conclude is that they give us an idea of what a near death experience is like.

2 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

If you are an atheist, stop denying GOD. 

Why?

2 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

This physical universe wouldn't be here if someone didn't figure out what physics constants were required to get good stable Elements in sufficient quantities to lead to complex biology and all that cellular machinery. 

What evidence do you have for that?

Quote

You gotta think of this:  it took a godlike being with godlike intelligence to figure out how to get micromachinery made of atoms and molecules to come from a set of physics constants! 

Did it? How do you know?

3 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

I don't care what your motivations are for not believing in God.

The same as my motivation for not playing golf: bemused indifference.

4 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

If you don't like God, then just admit it.  You think God is a jerk! 

I have no opinion about gods. There are some entertaining stories about the old Greek and Roman ones. 

And Loki seems like a bit of a jerk.

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28 minutes ago, Strange said:

I think all we can conclude is that they give us an idea of what a near death experience is like.

A cockroach wouldn't even bother to think about near death experiences.  Are cockroaches extinct?  They were talked about more often when I was a kid.  Nobody talks about them now.  Yeah, lower lifeforms don't worry about anything as important as life after death, our relationship with a Higher Being, personal happiness.  They're more concerned with where the find the next crumb.

Why?

You're right.  You have every right to deny the existence of God.  That is your free will and free speech, freedom of religion (or whatever your situation is).

What evidence do you have for that?

Nobody has created a model that maps the physics constants to a final result of molecular robots that become life.  To be honest, I don't think anybody knows how.

Did it? How do you know?

Because we're here.

The same as my motivation for not playing golf: bemused indifference.

You mean you don't care?  What was it that destroyed you emotionally, to leave you in a state of indifference?  That you would settle for emotional crumbs.

I have no opinion about gods. There are some entertaining stories about the old Greek and Roman ones. 

I thought the old Greek and Roman gods were fun to think about when I was a kid and played Dungeons and dragons. 

And Loki seems like a bit of a jerk.

You and I are like two biological cells in the metaphorical flesh of GOD, cosmic awareness, Infinite Consciousness, LIFE!  There is such universal bliss to be experienced.  And it makes me sad that my brother in divinity has lost his faith.  You don't think faith matters.  But it is a feedback cycle that leads to satisfaction, and many other blessings. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

A cockroach wouldn't even bother to think about near death experiences. 

That is a complete non-sequitur.

4 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

Nobody has created a model that maps the physics constants to a final result of molecular robots that become life.  To be honest, I don't think anybody knows how.

So you think a god must have done it because we don't understand all the details of abiogenesis? We have a good idea of most of the possible mechanisms. We may never know exactly which were involved but it seems an extreme denial of Occam's Razor to invent a mythical being instead.

6 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

Because we're here.

That is not evidence for a godlike being.

6 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

You mean you don't care?  What was it that destroyed you emotionally, to leave you in a state of indifference?  That you would settle for emotional crumbs.

What a bizarre statement. What on earth makes you think I have been "destroyed emotionally"?

One of the great things about religion is the fantastic art and music it has inspired. I can enjoy that (and art and music not inspired by a god) perfectly well without having to share the beliefs of the artist.

8 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

And it makes me sad that my brother in divinity has lost his faith. 

Never had it in the first place.

8 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

You don't think faith matters.

I think faith matters very much. It is a hugely important part of the human experience. I just don't share yours in a god or gods. (If I did believe in a god, why should it be your god rather than another one?)

 

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5 minutes ago, Strange said:

So you think a god must have done it because we don't understand all the details of abiogenesis? We have a good idea of most of the possible mechanisms. We may never know exactly which were involved but it seems an extreme denial of Occam's Razor to invent a mythical being instead.

 

9 minutes ago, Strange said:

That is not evidence for a godlike being. 

Yes, I don't see how you build a system with complex life from an accident, caused by mechanisms that just magically appeared out of nowhere.  Believe me, it's much easier to throw a universe with life together if you actually plan ahead.  I mean, how is that not obvious?  I mean, itsn't it obvious that you don't get a human being without planning?  Where does that happen where an accident leads to something as complicated as a human brain?  I mean, "I dunno" is right up there with "it was magic!!!"

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4 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

Yes, I don't see how you build a system with complex life from an accident, caused by mechanisms that just magically appeared out of nowhere.

So because you don't know how life arose, you have to invoke gods to do it.

4 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

Believe me, it's much easier to throw a universe with life together if you actually plan ahead.

No, I don't believe you.

4 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

Where does that happen where an accident leads to something as complicated as a human brain?

Why is "an accident" the only alternative to "my fave god did it?

4 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

I mean, "I dunno" is right up there with "it was magic!!!"

Uh, no. Invoking gods is equivalent to invoking magic. "Wow: super powers! My god can do anything!"

Saying "we don't know" is the sensible response to a lack of evidence or information. It seems to be a common human trait to fill gaps in knowledge with myths and fairy stories, but that is not rational.

Any why should someone believe your creation myth rather than the hundreds of others out there?

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1 hour ago, Wulphstein said:

I would just argue that the database of near death experiences gives you a pretty good idea of what the afterlife and eternity are going to be like.

Why? By definition a near death experience means we're still alive, so all you can conclude is, that's what life is like (given the right conditions).

1 hour ago, Wulphstein said:

To find happiness, a good Godly happiness based on loving thy neighbor, you're going to have to open your feelers

You can follow the bibles teachings, forgive, tolerate, love etc and be happy you just don't need a god...

1 hour ago, Wulphstein said:

If you don't like God, then just admit it.  You think God is a jerk!

I just don't care about god, I don't need him/her/it, but I do think you should to try and apply his/her/it's teaching, accept/love your neighbour even when they don't think like you do... 

 

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3 minutes ago, Strange said:

So because you don't know how life arose, you have to invoke gods to do it.

Dude!  We're fricken molecular robots!!!!  How do you get that without planning?  Do you live in an insane asylum?  I mean, really, not to be mean, but ...

 

5 minutes ago, Strange said:

No, I don't believe you.

Do you know that the earth is round?  Not flat?  Forgive me, I don't mean to be rude, but, can you function outside of an insane asylum?

 

6 minutes ago, Strange said:

Why is "an accident" the only alternative to "my fave god did it?

Can you offer an alternative? 

 

7 minutes ago, Strange said:

Uh, no. Invoking gods is equivalent to invoking magic. "Wow: super powers! My god can do anything!"

Saying "we don't know" is the sensible response to a lack of evidence or information. It seems to be a common human trait to fill gaps in knowledge with myths and fairy stories, but that is not rational.

Any why should someone believe your creation myth rather than the hundreds of others out there?

I said that the universe had to be planned out.  That implies a creator, engineer, designer that is a lot smarter than we are?  How is that not deserving of the title "god"?  Because you sure as heck can't do it!

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13 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

Yes, I don't see how you build a system with complex life from an accident, caused by mechanisms that just magically appeared out of nowhere.  Believe me, it's much easier to throw a universe with life together if you actually plan ahead.  I mean, how is that not obvious?  I mean, itsn't it obvious that you don't get a human being without planning?  Where does that happen where an accident leads to something as complicated as a human brain?  I mean, "I dunno" is right up there with "it was magic!!!"

That is such an arrogant assumption, I'm so special, so much better than the ant I tread underfoot and all those atheists that don't agree. 

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4 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I just don't care about god, I don't need him/her/it, but I do think you should to try and apply his/her/it's teaching, accept/love your neighbour even when they don't think like you do... 

Then why are you commenting in the "religion" part of the forum if you don't care about GOD?

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1 minute ago, Wulphstein said:

Then why are you commenting in the "religion" part of the forum if you don't care about GOD?

Because I care about people; and even you don't need a crutch to walk with pride.  

2 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

I don't understand?

Sometimes an accident leads to hear and now, fate...

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11 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

Dude!  We're fricken molecular robots!!!!  How do you get that without planning?  Do you live in an insane asylum?  I mean, really, not to be mean, but ...

 

Evolution. 

11 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

I said that the universe had to be planned out. 

I guess if you start with the assumption that it was designed then you can conclude that there must be a designer. 

This is why every article on the fallacy of begging the question includes at least one example from religion. 

I don’t share your assumption so I don’t accept your conclusion. 

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4 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Because I care about people; and even you don't need a crutch to walk with pride.  

You "care" about people?  In what way? You might think you care, but it's not coming across to me.

3 minutes ago, Strange said:

I guess if start with the assumption that it was designed then you can conclude that there must be a designer.  

This is why every article on the fallacy of begging the question includes at least one example from religion.  

I don’t share your assumption so I don’t accept your conclusion. 

It's not a logical fallacy to put a square peg in a square hole?  Where did you learn that it was smart to think you could put a square peg in a round hole?  This is like the foundation of common sense?  How do you get a molecular robot from a bunch of physics constants, without planning?

Edited by Wulphstein
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1 minute ago, Wulphstein said:

You "care" about people?  In what way? You might think you care, but it's not coming across to me.

I forgive them, I tolerate them, I accept them and I live with them, isn't that what god demands?

I just don't need to rely on god (or its revenge/love) to do so...

The real question is, why do you need god? 

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6 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

It's not a logical fallacy to put a square peg in a square hole?  Where did you learn that it was smart to think you could put a square peg in a round hole

What on earth are you jabbering on about?

6 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

How do you get a molecular robot from a bunch of physics constants, without planning?

Evolution (I do hope you are not one of those god botherers who think this is incompatible with your god)

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1 minute ago, Strange said:

What on earth are you jabbering on about?

If there are two choices of how the universe got here (a) planned or (b) an accident or fate, isn't it obvious that it had to be planned out, like the physics constants?  I mean, I work with engineers.  You need smart people to make a complex system.  How is it not obvious!???  Human brains or more complex than anything!!!  How do you get that to happen by accident?

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5 minutes ago, Strange said:

Evolution (I do hope you are not one of those god botherers who think this is incompatible with your god)

This isn't about making you part of the religion.  It's about how you think that evolution is argument?  Please explain what evolution has to do with design by somebody smart?

1 minute ago, dimreepr said:

Termites... ;)

Admit it that you don't believe your own claim.  Show some decency to the truth.

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2 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

Admit it that you don't believe your own claim.  Show some decency to the truth.

How is a termite mound not a complex system? Are you suggesting the queen is a pan-dimensional-hyper-intelligent being with a blueprint?

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I mean, let's be honest.  In order to believe in atheist, you have to believe in a lie, a logical inconsistency, a fraud, a conspiracy to not see the obvious?  It doesn't bother me that you lie to me, but you lie to yourself?  And you don't care that the logical inconsistency corrupts your mind.  If you cared, you would experience cognitive dissonance.

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3 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

How is a termite mound not a complex system? Are you suggesting the queen is a pan-dimensional-hyper-intelligent being with a blueprint? 

Termites are molecular machines.  How do you get molecular machines by accident?  without planning?  And please understand, I wish to be respectful and don't wish to say what I'm really thinking about your intelligence.  :)

3 minutes ago, Strange said:

No. 

I suppose it is obvious if you already believe in supernatural beings and magic. Not otherwise. 

I often hear people refer to flat earthers as being stupid.  But I think it's rude to call people names like that.  I always defend flat earthers and say that their just trying to pester or troll other people.  I mean, nobody could be that stupid as to believe the earth is flat?

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2 minutes ago, Wulphstein said:

Termites are molecular machines.  How do you get molecular machines by accident?  without planning?  And please understand, I wish to be respectful and don't wish to say what I'm really thinking about your intelligence.  :)

You get molecular machines via  the physics of emergent complexity. Driven by energy molecules can and will spontaneously become more complex, carbon can become life though energy powered emergent complexity. 

 https://www.iflscience.com/physics/life-inevitable-consequence-physics/

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England is suggesting that biology arises because, in certain environments – like on planets – where the energy balance is so out of whack, physics guarantees that atoms rearrange themselves to be able to deal with the chaotic flow of energy. These atomic structures just happen to resemble what we refer to as “life”.

 

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