Jump to content

Recommended Posts

I think the mental health service should maintain it's stance on suicide prevention efforts. But unfortunately some people have been advocationg a sort of suicide deterrence. Trying to stop suicide by stigmatising suicide victims is a recipe for disaster.

Mental illness obviously does not discriminate. Indeed there are many different types of mental illnesses and therefore many different reasons as to why people die of suicide. Suicide and mental illness are very much related so telling people to get help while simultaneously stigmatising suicide would be very dishonest.

The method of suicide is ultimately the same cause of death as any physical illness. For instance, I imagine blood loss by deliberately cutting onself would be just as painful as having your arm accidentally cut. So to call it cowardly serves only to downplay how painful other deaths are.

Suicide is not selfish as death is the end of you (in this world at least). Reducing suicide stigma would allow potential victims to alert their relatives beforehand. This would reduce the shock and suddenness of it resulting in less grief. 

In conclusion taunting suicidal people out of suicide would not be helpful. Thankfully mental health awareness and understanding seems to be going very well. But we must avoid any type of callousness or sadism that a few people appear to be advocating. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If there are many types of mental illness, and mental illness does not discriminate, then why wouldn't some people find ridicule a meaningful method of prevention? I assume, of course, that you would include ridicule in a list of stigmatizing deterrents. And I'm not advocating it for everyone, but I do think some people want to be told their thoughts of suicide are silly and transitory. So I'm loathe to remove that tool from a professional's bag.

Can you give examples of ways suicide prevention is being turned into "taunting"? Again, it seems like everyone is different, including what they interpret as callousness and sadism. Are some mental health professionals advocating sadism if they point out how suicide affects survivors? I don't like calling suicide "cowardly", but I also don't agree that these deaths are equally painful as their accidental counterparts. Cutting blood vessels isn't the same as losing an arm, just as dying by GSW isn't the same as a bullet to the head.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I think there's a difference in tone between reassurance and ridicule. I agree that we should by all means try to reason the person out of it and strongly encourage them to live; to remind them that the pain is temporary and it will eventually go away. But if a patient just cannot deal with the immense stress and pain they're under I wouldn't try to physically stop them killing themselves. 

I'm didn't say suicide prevention itself is being turned into taunting but just some opinions you read about online.

People suffering from schizophrenia, for example, may have delusions. Pointing out the errors of their logic is certainly helpful. But I don't think "ridiculing" the person will solve it. It could easily backfire and make the person more guarded and defensive and less likely to seek help.

Mental illnesses can be quite different. There are bullying victims who may contemplate suicide; chronic back pain sufferers, depressed individuals and so on. Each may require a different strategy in order to help them and prevent suicide.

I'm not sure what you mean by your dying examples. I'm afraid there are many different methods of suicide.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Michael McMahon said:

People suffering from schizophrenia, for example, may have delusions. Pointing out the errors of their logic is certainly helpful. But I don't think "ridiculing" the person will solve it. It could easily backfire and make the person more guarded and defensive and less likely to seek help.

Probably why I specifically made sure to say:

59 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

And I'm not advocating it for everyone, but I do think some people want to be told their thoughts of suicide are silly and transitory. So I'm loathe to remove that tool from a professional's bag.

 

12 minutes ago, Michael McMahon said:

I'm not sure what you mean by your dying examples. I'm afraid there are many different methods of suicide.  

You claimed calling suicide cowardly wasn't right because both the suicide and the accidental death have the same kind of pain. I don't think that's true in most cases. Suicides get to choose how and where, they know it's coming, there are many factors that make it less painful. I just didn't agree with that part of your argument.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Michael McMahon said:

It's not so much about who was in the most pain but that there is pain in all death. 

Then why don't more suicides burn themselves? I'm just saying it's a poor argument, that the pain is the same. I disagree with your third paragraph. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Though rare, there has actually been suicide by burning. The poet Sylvia Plath died by putting her head into an oven. Self-immolation by Buddhist monks as political protest for instance has been documented.

People who've made suicide attempts are sometimes left with disabilities. There have been cases of the terminally ill dying by suicide.

To understand cowardice it may be best to first look to the opposite concept; bravery. I've frequently read that bravery is not the absence of fear but overcoming fear. So there is an element of fear in all death irrespective of how people respond to it. Personally I don't understand how WW1 analogies are helpful given the amount of controversy over the actual purpose of that war.

Even knowing you are going to die doesn't always lessen the pain. In fact in the death penalty debate the uncertainty of inmates in death row is often cited as increasing the inmates' pain. Elderly death is obviously still very painful even though they've had up to 80 years to prepare for their death.

We all have the same pain fibers so technically deliberate injury and accidental injury would both be highly painful.

For people who make such an argument about relatives who find the body of a suicide victim your burning example perhaps wasn't good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The experience of pain can encourage solidarity. Pain of course viscerally hurts. So I find it ridiculous any notion that some are "selfishly" dead or that the mentally ill are "arrogantly" in despair. As I've said before I'm not at all criticising society. I'm merely disagreeing with a few comments one sees around the web.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Everyone should have the right to die by suicide if their lives become very miserable and they are really not happy with everything.  

I hate how society thinks it has the right to decide for a person that he should continue living a miserable life rather than choosing to die.

My life is my life. It's nobody business but my own. Therefore I am the exclusive owner of my life and I have the exclusive right to decide what to do with it.

And if I am not happy and living a miserable life then I should have the right to end my life if I choose so.

 

 

Edited by seriously disabled

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, seriously disabled said:

Everyone should have the right to die by suicide if their lives become very miserable and they are really not happy with everything.  

I hate how society thinks it has the right to decide for a person that he should continue living a miserable life rather than choosing to die.

My life is my life. It's nobody business but my own. Therefore I am the exclusive owner of my life and I have the exclusive right to decide what to do with it.

And if I am not happy and living a miserable life then I should have the right to end my life if I choose so.

 

 

I tend to agree with you, but also feel too many people give up too soon.

I recognize your situation is harder than the situation of many other people, but everyone gets depressed and it generally passes. Not always. I understand for some depression is chronic and burdensome, but things in our world would be a whole lot different (and probably not better if everyone just gave up and committed suicide every time things got hard.

Life is hard. We generally get through it, especially with help.

I don’t have the same caveats for old age. I think it’s incredibly sad that we force millions of wonderful elderly people to feel miserable and alone and to just hold on until their body fails, even when their minds already have. We could do better 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, iNow said:

I tend to agree with you, but also feel too many people give up too soon.

I recognize your situation is harder than the situation of many other people, but everyone gets depressed and it generally passes. Not always. I understand for some depression is chronic and burdensome, but things in our world would be a whole lot different (and probably not better if everyone just gave up and committed suicide every time things got hard.

My problems are much more serious than just being depressed.

For starters I live in poverty, my health is very bad and am about to become homeless, living on the streets or just rot in jail for many years.

I am also heartbroken because of the many rejections I get from women and also I will never be able to get permission from the auhorities to drive a car for the rest of my life.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, seriously disabled said:

My problems are much more serious than just being depressed.

For starters I live in poverty, my health is very bad and am about to become homeless, living on the streets or just rot in jail for many years.

I am also heartbroken because of the many rejections I get from women and also I will never be able to get permission from the auhorities to drive a car for the rest of my life.

Well at least you're not a refugee...

It's been 10 years since you signed up here, at least you're still on-line; there's a happy thought for you. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, seriously disabled said:

My problems are much more serious than just being depressed.

I won't say I understand, but I do get it. This is why I acknowledged in my post a recognition that your situation is harder than that of many people. I was letting you know that my points applied more to a median audience, and that outliers always exist and maybe don't fit so neatly into what I was saying. Regardless, my warmest thoughts and best wishes are with you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, seriously disabled said:

My problems are much more serious than just being depressed.

Of course they are; you seem so determined...

But it's OK to feel bad (whatever your social status) the rich get sad too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, seriously disabled said:

My problems are much more serious than just being depressed.

For starters I live in poverty, my health is very bad and am about to become homeless, living on the streets or just rot in jail for many years.

I am also heartbroken because of the many rejections I get from women and also I will never be able to get permission from the auhorities to drive a car for the rest of my life.

 

Please, no. We can talk about this the way the OP intended, the way your first post did. As soon as you make this about you personally, it becomes a medical issue and the thread gets shut down

We are unequipped to offer professional advice, you know this. Please don't make this about diagnosing your situation. I was hoping we could discuss the subject without violating the rules. This should be talked about, but without doing unintended harm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/21/2019 at 11:43 PM, Michael McMahon said:

Self-immolation by Buddhist monks as political protest for instance has been documented.

That sounds interesting could you give me an article.

5 hours ago, seriously disabled said:

My problems are much more serious than just being depressed.

For starters I live in poverty, my health is very bad and am about to become homeless, living on the streets or just rot in jail for many years.

I am also heartbroken because of the many rejections I get from women and also I will never be able to get permission from the auhorities to drive a car for the rest of my life.

 

this is to talk about suicide prevention and stigma if you need help or something this thread is not for that. also what you said has nothing to do with suicide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am lead to believe, based on what I've read, that let's say the roots of "suicide prevention" are evolutionary and cultural. While the biological element is probably not going to go away in foreseeable future, the cultural one - especially the mentioned stigma -, is subject to change granted there is will to change it.  

Personally, I hope that the support given to those who are set on committing suicide would be similar to the support given to those who signaling the possibility of committing one. I would also hope examination of socio-economic realities of those displaying signs of being suicidal is not preceded by psychiatric evaluation with appropriate steps taken accordingly. 

Since I am not sure what direction the OP was heading and since this topic is quite complex, let me finish with a definition of selfish I prefer: for own benefit, without regards for others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"So, if the whole world/ your whole school/ all your friends were going to jump off a bridge, would you jump, too?"

This question is a common tactic used by parents. But it does happen to show the absurdity that suicide victims are directly responsible for other suicides. Death would be the end of your life. You don't get to bask in other people's grief afterwards. So I'm not sure what this confusion is about suicide contagion. If there is an instance of multiple suicides in an area, then focus on any underlying societal issues and improve mental health services. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Michael McMahon said:

This question is a common tactic used by parents. But it does happen to show the absurdity that suicide victims are directly responsible for other suicides. Death would be the end of your life. You don't get to bask in other people's grief afterwards. So I'm not sure what this confusion is about suicide contagion. If there is an instance of multiple suicides in an area, then focus on any underlying societal issues and improve mental health services. 

Some religions seem to have done that.

1 hour ago, Michael McMahon said:

"So, if the whole world/ your whole school/ all your friends were going to jump off a bridge, would you jump, too?"

And some religions seem to have done that.

 

Suicide prevention is a little like forcing a horse to drink; with human level horse power...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Michael McMahon said:

So I'm not sure what this confusion is about suicide contagion.

The confusion seems to be with people who don't recognize contagion as a real thing.

https://www.npr.org/2019/04/30/718529255/teen-suicide-spiked-after-debut-of-netflixs-13-reasons-why-report-says

Quote

When Netflix's 13 Reasons Why was released two years ago, depicting the life of a teenager who decided to take her own life, educators and psychologists warned the program could lead to copycat suicides. Now, a study funded by the National Institutes of Health shows that those concerns may have been warranted.

In the month following the show's debut in March 2017, there was a 28.9% increase in suicide among Americans ages 10-17, said the study, published Monday in the Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry. The number of suicides was greater than that seen in any single month over the five-year period researchers examined. Over the rest of the year, there were 195 more youth suicides than expected given historical trends.

 

1 hour ago, Michael McMahon said:

If there is an instance of multiple suicides in an area, then focus on any underlying societal issues and improve mental health services. 

This is a valid approach, and is not mutually exclusive with the idea of contagion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not the suicide victim's fault if other individuals die of suicide afterwards. Suicide contagion may be more a reflection of social problems like poverty and lgbt stigma. I haven't watched 13 Reasons Why.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Michael McMahon said:

It's not the suicide victim's fault if other individuals die of suicide afterwards. Suicide contagion may be more a reflection of social problems like poverty and lgbt stigma. I haven't watched 13 Reasons Why.  

All I know is, we used to be happy, at least some of us... ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Michael McMahon said:

It's not the suicide victim's fault if other individuals die of suicide afterwards.

Who's trying to assign fault? Contagion is not to be conflated with fault.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.