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What polymer* have high amounts of carbon?


DARK0717
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What polymer or plastics have very high amount of carbon or atleast carbonizing* when exposed to extreme heat?

additional question: is carbon heat resistant? (i know there is more to heat and materials being resistant but for the sake of simplicity, lets leave it at "resistant")

Edited by DARK0717
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11 minutes ago, DARK0717 said:

What polymer or plastics have very high amount of carbon or atleast carbonizing* when exposed to extreme heat?

Most common ones.

11 minutes ago, DARK0717 said:

additional question: is carbon heat resistant?

To what temperature?  What state of carbon? (in a polymer ((if so which)) or as graphite, bucky balls or carbon?)

Carbon will react with oxygen and enough heat to form carbon dioxide - basically it burns. Most carbon based polymers (unless they contain phosphorous or other FR functional groups) will burn. I think graphite is more 'resistant' to heat and fire but will burn to CO2 at the right temperature.

You could write an entire essay, or a book even, answering your questions. Can you be more specific?

 

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- Im talking about thousands of degress Celsius, lets just say "withstand 1000 deg C"

- If i understand what you mean by carbon, then lets say, when you burn something using a blow torch, youd see black stuff (carbon).

- any plastic that can simply be painted as a thin layer but creates a carbon shield when it gets exposed to burning heat.

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13 minutes ago, DARK0717 said:

- If i understand what you mean by carbon, then lets say, when you burn something using a blow torch, youd see black stuff (carbon).

OK - I see. The 'black stuff' that remains after a fire can be called a char or an ash. It very much depends upon what was combusting and how far the combustion has gone as to what the chemical make up of that char will be.  It could also be slightly different make ups depending upon the heat of the combustion. It isn't so simple as to be just pure carbon left over. Pure carbon will go to carbon dioxide in a complete combustion and you will get no char at all.

 

13 minutes ago, DARK0717 said:

any plastic that can simply be painted as a thin layer but creates a carbon shield when it gets exposed to burning heat.

You mean like an intumescent paint? Look up 'Intumescent Paints' on the internet and read about them.

 

What are you asking?

 

Edited by DrP
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19 minutes ago, DrP said:

OK - I see. The 'black stuff' that remains after a fire can be called a char or an ash. It very much depends upon what was combusting and how far the combustion has gone as to what the chemical make up of that char will be.  It could also be slightly different make ups depending upon the heat of the combustion. It isn't so simple as to be just pure carbon left over. Pure carbon will go to carbon dioxide in a complete combustion and you will get no char at all.

 

You mean like an intumescent paint? Look up 'Intumescent Paints' on the internet and read about them.

 

What are you asking?

 

What im asking is "what plastic or polymer, when burned (exposed to extreme heat), makes that char or ash which will then be resistant to incredibly high temps" or any polymer with immense heat resistance.

Edit: Yes, an intumescent paint

Edited by DARK0717
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Do you have a specific application in mind? Is it a one off requirement? Does the 'paint' have to last years or be water repellent? Are looking to protect a certain thing or are you trying to formulate a paint or is it just interest? Does it need to be a clear varnish or a coloured paint?

There are different methods of achieving a high temperature resistant char. Most intumescent paints use Ammonium Polyphoshphate which reacts with the polymer binder (if it has the right functional groups) and other charring agents in a fire situation and promotes charring and cross linking over total oxidation. Blowing agents are used to foam up the chars into a thicker spongy layer which protects the wood/substrate.

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 4:44 PM, DARK0717 said:

What im asking is "what plastic or polymer, when burned (exposed to extreme heat), makes that char or ash which will then be resistant to incredibly high temps"

 They aren't just single polymers - they are a formulated blend of chemicals which form the intumescing char in an intumescent paint.

Melamine Formaldehyde resins though will intumesce on their own (but the usual 2 pack system that needs mixing to form the coating will probably contain formaldehyde and be hazardous).

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 4:44 PM, DARK0717 said:

or any polymer with immense heat resistance.

this is a different thing to intumescent paint. Just because it is heat resistant does not mean it will protect the substrate from heat. It just means the coating itself won't degrade. Again - there are many polymers that are heat resistant and all to different temperatures. Usually just to a few hundred degrees though, not thousands. Silicon containing polymers will give higher heat resistance. Again - what is the application?   High temperature resistant fillers can be added to polymer blends to give higher heat and fire resistance.

 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/7/2019 at 4:58 PM, DrP said:

Do you have a specific application in mind? Is it a one off requirement? Does the 'paint' have to last years or be water repellent? Are looking to protect a certain thing or are you trying to formulate a paint or is it just interest? Does it need to be a clear varnish or a coloured paint?

There are different methods of achieving a high temperature resistant char. Most intumescent paints use Ammonium Polyphoshphate which reacts with the polymer binder (if it has the right functional groups) and other charring agents in a fire situation and promotes charring and cross linking over total oxidation. Blowing agents are used to foam up the chars into a thicker spongy layer which protects the wood/substrate.

 They aren't just single polymers - they are a formulated blend of chemicals which form the intumescing char in an intumescent paint.

Melamine Formaldehyde resins though will intumesce on their own (but the usual 2 pack system that needs mixing to form the coating will probably contain formaldehyde and be hazardous).

this is a different thing to intumescent paint. Just because it is heat resistant does not mean it will protect the substrate from heat. It just means the coating itself won't degrade. Again - there are many polymers that are heat resistant and all to different temperatures. Usually just to a few hundred degrees though, not thousands. Silicon containing polymers will give higher heat resistance. Again - what is the application?   High temperature resistant fillers can be added to polymer blends to give higher heat and fire resistance.

 

 

 

Sorry for late reply.
This topic is of my interest because I recently found out about the paint called Starlite which reflects most of the heat while keeping the other side warm to the touch (barely cooking an egg). Videos have shown how to make such a thing using glue and baking materials like baking soda. ive noticed one similar trait on both materials altho different in looks is that it develops a char or a burn which will be the one to protect the other side.

I don't intend to discover right now if it could last for years, im trying to know if it can be done or even be done in a much simpler way like extracting the char itself and what easier materials can be used to make or mass produce such a thing.

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On ‎5‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 10:41 AM, DARK0717 said:

paint called Starlite

There is a lot about Starlite that doesn't add up. The video on Tomorrows World looked impressive and there are some good reports. However - that it was never taken to market suggests a problem. Looking at the char it looks siliceous to me rather than carboniferous. I wonder if the paint, that clearly works so well in the TW test video, breaks down after a few weeks and falls off or something like that. If not then why would none of the companies that investigated it take it up? Why would Maurice Ward not let the formulation known to the world? There are writings to say he didn't want it being used commercially and that he wasn't offered enough money for it etc...   again - none of it adds up.  Why turn down a fortune just to be greedy?

It (Starlite) looks similar to what you get if you take water glass and mix in some clays and other heat resistant fillers. Maybe some mica platelets or some alumina silicate fillers that are refractory. Siliceous clays and the like. If this is the case you would get something similar to what was seen on Tomorrows World (admittedly not quite as impressive, but they could have hammed up the video with a cooler burning flame or something to make it look more impressive for the TV, who knows?) that would paint onto an egg and give a pretty good attempt at protecting it during attack from a blow torch (especially if it was set up on a cooler flame). The problem would come a few months later though... coating of this material will probably go flaky and just crumble off over time (several months?).

I personally think that Starlite was one of those products that 'almost' made it but wasn't good enough for what ever reason all those companies that rejected it and Maurice Ward were not telling us.

 

PS - IF it was real and had no problems then Maurice Ward was a serious arse hat for not sharing it to the world or at least passing the secret to others that could make money out of it. That product could have saved many lives by now but the world has been denied it because of one man's greed. He was offered millions for it iirc.

 

 

 

OK - rewatching the TW clip it DOES look like a black char - suggesting carbon.

How about some melamine formaldehyde resin loaded with clays and alumina silicate powders/particulates?  I do not know, obviously, but as I said above - there must have been something wrong with its long term stability or a problem with long term substrate adhesion or something else otherwise it would be on the market.  

 

Edited by DrP
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On 5/20/2019 at 11:41 AM, DARK0717 said:

Videos have shown how to make such a thing using glue and baking materials like baking soda.

Baking soda start decomposing at 50 °C

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_bicarbonate#Thermal_decomposition

After heating to higher temperatures it will decompose and release carbon dioxide, which could be stuck in some medium as gas bubbles locked inside of it.

"These conversions are relevant to the use of NaHCO3 as a fire-suppression agent ("BC powder") in some dry-powder fire extinguishers."

 

 

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18 hours ago, Sensei said:

Baking soda start decomposing at 50 °C

Maybe it's in there as a blowing agent to 'puff up' the char a little to make it a thicker layer. Maybe.

In intumescent paints they tend to use melamine. It is more stable in the paint than the baking soda and decomposes at a much higher temperature (~340C) suited to blowing up an intumescent char.

 

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