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jajrussel

Do most humans need to believe in God

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35 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Well, no, not really. You may wish they satisfied the mind, but they are under no obligation to do so. Some things will probably just remain unsatisfying forever.

Like the fact Halle Berry doesn't want to marry me. :(

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When I open my eyes in the morning I don't see God's love. Instead what I see is Capitalist cruelty and people dying by the numbers every day. I see a world ruled by radical patriarchy and the strong dominating over the weak.

This world cannot be the work of an all-loving God.

If God created this cruel and corrupt world then he is evil and sadistic and not a loving and caring God at all and especially not one worth worshipping.

Edited by seriously disabled

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On 3/28/2019 at 12:55 PM, jajrussel said:

Worshipping God's seems irrational. So why have people worshipped God's for thousands of years? With all the evidence that shows that human beings have done just that, and the evidence is there. Is it rational to ignore a need that humans seem to be hardwired with just because the proof is lacking?   :)

To the observation seriously disabled made in their post the question in the OP could just as easy read:

Worshipping God's  Murder seems irrational. So why have people worshipped God's Murdered for thousands of years? With all the evidence that shows that human beings have done just that, and the evidence is there. Is it rational to ignore a need that humans seem to be hardwired with just because the proof is lacking?

31 minutes ago, seriously disabled said:

When I open my eyes in the morning I don't see God's love. Instead what I see is Capitalist cruelty and people dying by the numbers every day. I see a world ruled by radical patriarchy and the strong dominating over the weak.

This world cannot be the work of an all-loving God.

If God created this cruel and corrupt world then he is evil and sadistic and not a loving and caring God at all and especially not one worth worshipping.

A religious person would probably argue that it is some combination of Satan and the sin of the morally weak which are responsible for the horrors you mention and that God will render judgement eventually and paradise will be restored. 

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On 4/6/2019 at 2:22 PM, Ten oz said:

 

I realized that I was being redundant with the quotes but could not figure it how to make the above quote box go away.

 

Below(

seriouslydisabled, has a good point) actually one of the most rational objections to religion that I've read. Yet, there appears to be a conundrum. Let's again play at substation:-) in the last two sentences below let's strike out the words God and replace them with the word humanity, or society, we can't rationaly blame a God. It's just as irrational to make up a Satan to blame. We did it. We do it. It's not pretty, but it has always been us. The picture painted is reality.

On 4/6/2019 at 1:43 PM, seriously disabled said:

When I open my eyes in the morning I don't see God's love. Instead what I see is Capitalist cruelty and people dying by the numbers every day. I see a world ruled by radical patriarchy and the strong dominating over the weak.

This world cannot be the work of an all-loving God.

If God created this cruel and corrupt world then he is evil and sadistic and not a loving and caring God at all and especially not one worth worshipping.

Edited Saturday at 01:55 PM by seriously disabled

 

As the OP I could have asked any question, but I didn't? Because I was searching for rational.

On 4/6/2019 at 2:22 PM, Ten oz said:

Worshipping God's  Murder seems irrational. So why have people worshipped God's Murdered for thousands of years? With all the evidence that shows that human beings have done just that, and the evidence is there. Is it rational to ignore a need that humans seem to be hardwired with just because the proof is lacking?

Note - you could as easily substituted the word sex in a discussion of the rationality of  overpopulation, but that, like murder that would be somewhat off topic. There has been offered opinion that religion is the result cognitive construction occurring in the brain that results in the belief in religion/s. I suppose the same thing could be said about natural selection. I believe it was inow who linked in the video in answer to my OP, it was a great video. As a non-believer who is interested in a rational explanation for religion it is certainly better than an irrational argument that religion isn't rational because it isn't science. One may as well be arguing that if it isn't physics it isn't science. Then do away with all discussions on those grounds.

Walking isn't rational at first. Falling down is painful, yet we learn to walk

How do you teach a child that if he it she wants to get out from under the oppressor, that is the kitchen table, then they need to crawl out from under the table before they stand up? Note - removing all tables from the house wasn't considered rational by anyone other than me. Religions do not make sense when you consider that they exist and the world is the way it is, but removing all tables from the house is not likely to be an acceptable analogy. Like a child protesting it ain't fair, neither the argument nor the protests ever ends. We can at least try to understand why religion exist and stop ruling out any argument that there is a possible rational reason why it does...

Tell them it's hardwired into their brain and they will respond that it was God's intent. So quit telling them. Let them keep banging their heads under the table. But science should at least accept that there is a reason we act the way we do.

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it is because they don't understand how the world works so they try to use gods to explain. or if they do they have had it ingrained since they could communicate.

On 4/6/2019 at 10:43 AM, seriously disabled said:

When I open my eyes in the morning I don't see God's love. Instead what I see is Capitalist cruelty and people dying by the numbers every day. I see a world ruled by radical patriarchy and the strong dominating over the weak.

This world cannot be the work of an all-loving God.

If God created this cruel and corrupt world then he is evil and sadistic and not a loving and caring God at all and especially not one worth worshipping.

and that is a good point god can't be real if he is all merciful and created this world.

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On 4/6/2019 at 11:43 AM, seriously disabled said:

This world cannot be the work of an all-loving God.

While I can appreciate the sentiment, and don't put any trust in a supernatural creator, this is not a reasonable stance given the standard definition of god(s). If they're omniscient, they're supposed to know better than you, right? It's pointless to argue from this position when god(s) could easily allow your brand new puppy to be run over just so it doesn't grow up to kill your newborn child in the future. Most would consider that a loving gesture in context, and they'd probably talk about mysterious ways.

So unless you're arguing that life should never have any bad aspects, the argument that a loving god shouldn't let bad things happen is pretty weak. And if we're going to point out weaknesses in belief, our non-belief should be equally strong, no?

On 4/6/2019 at 11:43 AM, seriously disabled said:

If God created this cruel and corrupt world then he is evil and sadistic and not a loving and caring God at all and especially not one worth worshipping.

Again, I'm not a believer, but I think this is a poor argument. God(s) seem to be all about proving your worth, proving that you're worthy of heaven/love/forgiveness/whatever. If the world was perfect, what are you testing yourself against? Sorry, but this part of the doctrine is pretty well thought out, actually. Suffer through all the corruption without losing your faith, stay true to your moral compass, obey the commandments, believe no matter what adversity tries to push you off the path, and ye shall spend forever in the Lord's house. Tough love, sure, but this is the kind of thing one does prosper from, being strong and not giving up, facing whatever life throws at you and still being a good person. I just happen to think you can do it without Iron Age worship and guilt and hanging your hopes on an afterlife. 

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On ‎4‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 2:18 PM, Phi for All said:

Here's a fact for you. The Big Bang Theory doesn't leave any questions about what happened before, because the model for it doesn't start until slightly after inflation began. It's not a creation theory. It's a theory about the development and evolution of the universe from a previous extremely hot and dense state.

Of course.

Quote

How can we know anything about what happened BEFORE the universe was in such a hot, dense state? If you crushed the Empire State Building down to the size of a pea, how would you go about figuring out what it was before it was made so small and dense and hot?

Irrespective as to whether we will ever know what happened before the BB, mankind will still keep searching for answers.

Quote

I think you have a very emotional, romantic view of the Truth, and it's clouding your reason.

Maybe you are right, but life throws things at us.

My mum went into a coma and was rushed to hospital, her breathing was a horrible gurgling sound. The doctors said she had days to live and there was nothing they could do for her. We called a priest, although none of us had a faith at the time, we just thought it was what you should do as mum was bought up a Catholic. As the priest prayed my mums gasping for air seemed to change, she seemed to relax and started to breathe more normally. About ten minutes after the priest walked out the door, mum came round and started to speak, she had no recollection of anything that happened in hospital, or that the priest had said prayers over her. We thought it might have just been a temporary reprieve, but she lived another eleven years.

Having our mum back was a mixed blessing, because she had suffered with multiple sclerosis for about twenty years prior to the coma, and she had gradually lost the use of both her arms and legs. Before the coma, there were times she said she wanted to die. But after the coma my mum regarded her healing as a blessing, despite her paralysed body, and she said she was not ready to die at the time of the coma.

I can only say that I will never meet a stronger person than my mum.

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1 hour ago, Eric H said:

Irrespective as to whether we will ever know what happened before the BB, mankind will still keep searching for answers.

You're going to throw a hip out if you keep sidestepping the questions like that.

1 hour ago, Eric H said:

Maybe you are right, but life throws things at us.

So duck instead of screaming!

1 hour ago, Eric H said:

My mum went into a coma and was rushed to hospital, her breathing was a horrible gurgling sound. The doctors said she had days to live and there was nothing they could do for her. We called a priest, although none of us had a faith at the time, we just thought it was what you should do as mum was bought up a Catholic. As the priest prayed my mums gasping for air seemed to change, she seemed to relax and started to breathe more normally. About ten minutes after the priest walked out the door, mum came round and started to speak, she had no recollection of anything that happened in hospital, or that the priest had said prayers over her. We thought it might have just been a temporary reprieve, but she lived another eleven years.

Having our mum back was a mixed blessing, because she had suffered with multiple sclerosis for about twenty years prior to the coma, and she had gradually lost the use of both her arms and legs. Before the coma, there were times she said she wanted to die. But after the coma my mum regarded her healing as a blessing, despite her paralysed body, and she said she was not ready to die at the time of the coma.

I can only say that I will never meet a stronger person than my mum.

It's almost miraculous what a soothing voice can do when someone is sick. Almost, but well within the natural capabilities of the human body.

I don't mean to make light of your good fortune, but assigning it to anything but your dear mother's strength and resilience seems, to me at least, a disservice to her. Why can't she be the hero here, instead of a god? 

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14 hours ago, Phi for All said:

It's almost miraculous what a soothing voice can do when someone is sick. Almost, but well within the natural capabilities of the human body.

The doctors didn't see a calming voice as an option open to them, they walked away and said there was nothing they could do.

 

14 hours ago, Phi for All said:

I don't mean to make light of your good fortune, but assigning it to anything but your dear mother's strength and resilience seems, to me at least, a disservice to her. Why can't she be the hero here, instead of a god? 

As I said before, I shall never meet a stronger person than my mum. She endured the last twenty years of her life being paralysed from the neck down, she suffered daily in ways that no one should suffer; yet she had a peace and kindness about her that was beyond my understanding. I can imagine you might like to take the credit for all the good stuff that happens in your life, but mum seemed to find some strength from God? We are all different.

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2 hours ago, Eric H said:

The doctors didn't see a calming voice as an option open to them, they walked away and said there was nothing they could do.

The lack of caring from these particular doctors doesn't suddenly make the supernatural possible.

2 hours ago, Eric H said:

As I said before, I shall never meet a stronger person than my mum. She endured the last twenty years of her life being paralysed from the neck down, she suffered daily in ways that no one should suffer; yet she had a peace and kindness about her that was beyond my understanding. I can imagine you might like to take the credit for all the good stuff that happens in your life, but mum seemed to find some strength from God? We are all different.

If your mom believed her god made her strong, and that belief helped her endure hardship and loss to live the life she wanted, then nobody can discount the good effect it had. Personally, I'm glad she had the kind of illness that god(s) can get credited for curing, rather than wanting an amputated limb grown back. No god(s) have figured out how to do that yet, despite omnipotence and all.

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3 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

If your mom believed her god made her strong, and that belief helped her endure hardship and loss to live the life she wanted, then nobody can discount the good effect it had

I saw a New Scientist headline this week regarding 'Mind over matter' for healing oneself of certain illnesses. With the faith healing..  FAITH is said to be the key  -  to really believe it. This, her faith in her god through the prayers for her, I believe is like Dumbo's feather... it is the placebo she needs to believe enough to heal herself, or pull through with shear will.   I am speculating of course, :-) but I have always believed something along those lines.

 

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1 hour ago, DrP said:

I saw a New Scientist headline this week regarding 'Mind over matter' for healing oneself of certain illnesses. With the faith healing..  FAITH is said to be the key  -  to really believe it. This, her faith in her god through the prayers for her, I believe is like Dumbo's feather... it is the placebo she needs to believe enough to heal herself, or pull through with shear will.   I am speculating of course, :-) but I have always believed something along those lines.

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

 

Quote

 

Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested.

Because it is the most scientifically rigorous investigation of whether prayer can heal illness, the study, begun almost a decade ago and involving more than 1,800 patients, has for years been the subject of speculation.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Phi for All said:

I'm glad she had the kind of illness that god(s) can get credited for curing, rather than wanting an amputated limb grown back. No god(s) have figured out how to do that yet, despite omnipotence and all.

My mum lived her life in a way that someone would if they had both arms and both legs amputated; she was paralysed from the neck down. There were no prosthetic limbs for her to use during the last twenty years of her life. Her faith helped her to find a peace that was truthfully beyond my understanding.  

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2 hours ago, Eric H said:

Her faith helped her to find a peace that was truthfully beyond my understanding.  

only for her; you can't force others to understand, especially if you don't. ;)

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14 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery

Well heart surgery might have been a bit severe to be able to 'believe' yourself well from. :-D

16 hours ago, Phi for All said:

If your mom believed her god made her strong, and that belief helped her endure hardship and loss to live the life she wanted, then nobody can discount the good effect it had

On ‎4‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 8:54 PM, Eric H said:

My mum went into a coma and was rushed to hospital, her breathing was a horrible gurgling sound.

In the case of Eric's mum, maybe it was a condition that positive thinking could pull you out of. I'll try to remember to dig up the article re 'thinking yourself well' later if I get the chance.

 

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9 hours ago, Eric H said:

My mum lived her life in a way that someone would if they had both arms and both legs amputated; she was paralysed from the neck down. There were no prosthetic limbs for her to use during the last twenty years of her life. Her faith helped her to find a peace that was truthfully beyond my understanding.  

Yes, well, my point was that you give your mom's god credit for curing her, as do many people for many illnesses. But nobody, NOBODY who has ever prayed to have a lost limb regrown has had that prayer answered. These gods seem good at cancer and heart disease, but there are some maladies that they refuse to touch no matter how much faith you have. 

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5 hours ago, DrP said:

In the case of Eric's mum, maybe it was a condition that positive thinking could pull you out of. I'll try to remember to dig up the article re 'thinking yourself well' later if I get the chance.

 

no need...

4 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

but there are some maladies that they refuse to touch no matter how much faith you have. 

doesn't matter, sometimes.

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23 hours ago, DrP said:

In the case of Eric's mum, maybe it was a condition that positive thinking could pull you out of.

Maybe more people need to take this on board. What positive thoughts could you use in similar situations?

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1 hour ago, Eric H said:

Maybe more people need to take this on board. What positive thoughts could you use in similar situations?

Do not go to gentle into that good night,

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Dylan Thomas

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On 3/28/2019 at 12:55 PM, Ichthus said:

Maybe you should ask some churches about that, eh? ;)

Gosh, good to know I have an irrational belief because I don't like the finality of death and I somehow need to explain the beauty and awe of nature! Amazing what you logical, rational people can teach me about myself! :) 

yes, it is better to explain the truth as best as humanly possible than to be naive and to make fluffy scarecrow argument for a faith that has no wit or retheritoic. why do you think there are so many because people are gullable.

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Needing to believe something and it actually being true are very very different things.

For example I can believe that I will wake up with Superman heat vision tomorrow but common sense tell me that humans having heat vision is impossible.

I can see why people need to believe in God, after all the world we live in is a very horrible place for so many people.

I just doesn't make sense for me that a loving and all-capable God exists when you see all the horrible things that some people have to go through and all the bad things that happen to people in every single day of their life.

Edited by seriously disabled

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