esposcar

Reactionless device using the principle of Pascal for fluids

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Just now, Ghideon said:

Are the white balls required for the setup; what kind of effect are they supposed to have on the outcome? If "all options are good" then why not remove the white balls allow for an easier analysis?

You are absolutly right, but it would require the input pistons to have a different dispacement length to compensate the friction and yes, could work also, of course. But I thought that maybe it would be more descriptive.

12 minutes ago, esposcar said:

You are absolutly right, but it would require the input pistons to have a different dispacement length to compensate the friction and yes, could work also, of course. But I thought that maybe it would be more descriptive.

I will post three frame pic without ball and without maths. Maths are already done, and we will see which piston pusher arrives with more speed to its corresponding top, that would do the picture more clear for analisis.

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26 minutes ago, esposcar said:

You are absolutly right, but it would require the input pistons to have a different dispacement length to compensate the friction and yes, could work also, of course. But I thought that maybe it would be more descriptive.

Ok! But it might be more descriptive if friction is shown as an arrow, labeled "friction force" or similar? To me it isn't obvious why friction is best compensated for by the white balls; they affect the outcome differently.

26 minutes ago, esposcar said:

I will post three frame pic without ball and without maths. 

Ok! Math will be required at some point later. But initially it is good to have a complete and consistent picture of the setup. It is probably necessary to understand* what the math is supposed to model.

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1 hour ago, Ghideon said:

Ok! But it might be more descriptive if friction is shown as an arrow, labeled "friction force" or similar? To me it isn't obvious why friction is best compensated for by the white balls; they affect the outcome differently.

Ok! Math will be required at some point later. But initially it is good to have a complete and consistent picture of the setup. It is probably necessary to understand* what the math is supposed to model.

Yes exactly. I had some problems with the render. I post one clear pic that show what are the intention of the device. There is a new component. I have attached bars perpendicular to the piston-pushers, and as the pushers advance, so the bar will, and they will hit their "wall". But one bar will arrive with more speed than its counterpart and because of that will carry more momentum.

Paso1.png.ea8cf6d22be44da5c3fc286063849159.png

Put a heavy mass over the output piston of the left, and you will have even a bigger difference of speed ;)

Edited by esposcar

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3 hours ago, esposcar said:

If you disagree then prove it wrong empirically, I have done my homework, do yours. And when you can show that what I show is wrong mathematically, you reply me and I will apologize and realize that you show me mathematically that does not work, so stop the bla bla bla and do the homework.

In speculations, the onus is entirely upon the promoter (you in this case).

So I don't have to prove anything.

 

However since my objective is to save you a great deal of fuitile and fruitless work (which is why I have been so plain and blunt).

Fluid Mechanics is quite different from Solid Mechanics.

For instance it is impossible to apply a force of any description to a fluid.

Think what happens if you drop a 100kg cannonball into a tank of water.

Does it apply 1000N to the water?

Of course not.

It just falls through the water.

So let us look at a very simple pipe system.

plugs1.jpg.dcf655fea0769f8f3bb044c3a2ce3d94.jpg

 

A pipe with plugs at A and B containing a fluid.

Starting (as you have done) assuming there is zero fluid friction, what happens if you push with any force whatsoever as shown in the diagram?

Do you think you develop any pressure within the fluid?

The answer is no you don't

You will find, if you try this experiment, that you simply displace plug A sideways until you stop pushing.

You will also find that you cannot apply a specific force F of say 10, 100 or 1000 N.

(in practice all you will need is enough push to overcome the friction holding the plugs in place, but you cannot increase the push beyond that.)

 

Can you now see what is missing from your analysis?

 

There is nothing pushing back at A to overcome.

 

If you are as good at mechancis as you claim, draw a free body diagram of the fluid.

That would be the correct way to analyse the situation.

Edited by studiot

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4 minutes ago, studiot said:

In speculations, the onus is entirely upon the promoter (you in this case).

So I don't have to prove anything.

 

However since my objective is to save you a great deal of fuitile and fruitless work (which is why I have been so plain and blunt).

Fluid Mechanics is quite different from Solid Mechanics.

For instance it is impossible to apply a force of any description to a fluid.

Think what happens if you drop a 100kg cannonball into a tank of water.

Does it apply 1000N to the water?

Of course not.

It just falls through the water.

So let us look at a very simple pipe system.

plugs1.jpg.dcf655fea0769f8f3bb044c3a2ce3d94.jpg

 

A pipe with plugs at A and B containing a fluid.

Starting (as you have done) assuming there is zero fluid friction, what happens if you push with any force whatsoever as shown in the diagram?

Do you think you develop any pressure within the fluid?

The answer is no you don't

You will find, if you try this experiment, that you simply displace plug A sideways until you stop pushing.

You will also find that you cannot apply a specific force F of say 10, 100 or 1000 N.

(in practice all you will need is enough push to overcome the friction holding the plugs in place, but you cannot increase the push beyond that.)

 

Can you now see what is missing from your analysis?

 

There is nothing pushing back at A to overcome.

 

If you are as good at mechancis as you claim, draw a free body diagram of the fluid.

That would be the correct way to analyse the situation.

The first example of the water that you describe like that is not a pascal system. Surf a bit in the net and do some research. At this level I prefer proves than bla bla bla, but anyway, your opinion is taken in consideration. Thank you.

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13 minutes ago, esposcar said:

The first example of the water that you describe like that is not a pascal system. Surf a bit in the net and do some research. At this level I prefer proves than bla bla bla, but anyway, your opinion is taken in consideration. Thank you.

Where exactly did I say it was?

Please do not imply something I did not say, particularly if you are going to be rude about it.

Edited by studiot

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7 hours ago, esposcar said:

I post one clear pic that show what are the intention of the device.

Thanks! So now we have a complete but simpler picture describing the suggested propulsion mechanism, OK?

Some more questions:
-According to your idea; in which direction is the device supposed to move in the latest picture? 
-When will the device accelerate? The amount of acceleration and is not important yet, I just want to know at what events it accelerates. For instance; Does the device accelerate as soon as the pistons initially affect the fluids? Or does the device start to move when the rods finally hit the walls?  

I 've a few ideas about an (even more) simplified view of the setup, hopefully useful to highlight some issues. But I need the direction of expected movement to draw it correctly.

 

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8 hours ago, Ghideon said:

Thanks! So now we have a complete but simpler picture describing the suggested propulsion mechanism, OK?

Some more questions:
-According to your idea; in which direction is the device supposed to move in the latest picture? 
-When will the device accelerate? The amount of acceleration and is not important yet, I just want to know at what events it accelerates. For instance; Does the device accelerate as soon as the pistons initially affect the fluids? Or does the device start to move when the rods finally hit the walls?  

I 've a few ideas about an (even more) simplified view of the setup, hopefully useful to highlight some issues. But I need the direction of expected movement to draw it correctly.

 

- Obviously on the direction that the input piston have more speed, no other way, so in this case to the right.

- It accelerate at any moment, it can accelerate for example as you see in the pic, in that moment, that the distance is the double before the rod hits in the smaller area input piston and the rod that belongs to the input piston with more area the rod is settled at half distance for the friction compensation, so meanwhile exist that distance difference, it will work at any point you want to produce an acceleration on both systems using the same force at both sides.

- About accelerating meanwhile the rods are contact with the wall, I dont think it would work if they need to have some distance to accelerate before the rod hitting.

- The direction will go in the direction of the smaller piston area, that means to the right.

-Piston is in constant contact with the fluid and have a pression on it

Edited by esposcar

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1 hour ago, esposcar said:

- Obviously on the direction that the input piston have more speed, no other way, so in this case to the right.

- It accelerate at any moment, it can accelerate for example as you see in the pic, in that moment, that the distance is the double before the rod hits in the smaller area input piston and the rod that belongs to the input piston with more area the rod is settled at half distance for the friction compensation, so meanwhile exist that distance difference, it will work at any point you want to produce an acceleration on both systems using the same force at both sides.

- About accelerating meanwhile the rods are contact with the wall, I dont think it would work if they need to have some distance to accelerate before the rod hitting.

- The direction will go in the direction of the smaller piston area, that means to the right.

-Piston is in constant contact with the fluid and have a pression on it

Ok! Do you then agree on the following description* of the propulsion?

  1. Starting position is the setup in the picture below.
  2. Push both the pistons with the same force F in opposite directions (Black arrows in the picture).
  3. Both the pistons will move, pushing liquid, but at different speeds: Sl and Sr (Speed Left and Speed Right, Direction shown by the same black arrows in the picture).
  4. The complete rig will accelerate to the right.
  5. Stop pushing the pistons (Force F=0) before rods hit the walls**. 
  6. The rig will not accelerate anymore but continue to move with constant speed to the right.

So:
-The propulsion of the rig depends only on the speed difference between Sl and Sr, as long as there is a speed difference while force F is equal in each direction? 
-As long as the piston areas are different on the left and right side there will be propulsion when identical force is applied, Ok? 

17 hours ago, esposcar said:

Paso1.png.ea8cf6d22be44da5c3fc286063849159.png

 

 

*) Note; this is not a description of what I think will happen. It is an attempt at simplifying the analysis.

**) there are other options but I chose this case for simplicity.

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