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Was jesus a magician?


Vexen
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Questions to ask before that:

Was there an actual person corresponding to the Jesus in the Bible?

Did the miracles actually happen? (I have read one good analysis suggesting they could be extended metaphors* for the ideas behind the new religion )

* “parables” was the word I was looking for 

Edited by Strange
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  • 5 weeks later...
1 hour ago, Renda Roberts said:

Miracles happen, that's without any doubt.

Depends on what’s your definition of „miracle” one man’s miracle is another man’s common knowledge. 

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2 hours ago, Renda Roberts said:

Miracles happen, that's without any doubt.

This isn't even something a person could be skeptical about. What people usually define as miraculous isn't testable or repeatable ("God cured my aunt's cancer"), or it can be easily explained by natural means ("My toast has the face of Jesus"). Miracles are inherently supernatural, so science can't even consider them phenomena. 

Something else is ALWAYS at work, something natural and explainable. And btw, any time you find yourself saying "without any doubt", you probably aren't doing science.

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Just now, Phi for All said:

This isn't even something a person could be skeptical about. What people usually define as miraculous isn't testable or repeatable ("God cured my aunt's cancer"), or it can be easily explained by natural means ("My toast has the face of Jesus"). Miracles are inherently supernatural, so science can't even consider them phenomena. 

Something else is ALWAYS at work, something natural and explainable. And btw, any time you find yourself saying "without any doubt", you probably aren't doing science.

Most tend to fall apart under scrutiny or 'can' be explained by probability and co-incidence regardless of how unlikely the event seemed.

The Catholic church is supposed to have a record book... but I have heard that every one of them in the book falls apart too if followed up on. I've seen some miraculous things that I thought were God at one point in my life  -  but the realm of probability doesn't rule out the almost impossible.

 

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29 minutes ago, DrP said:

...I've seen some miraculous things that I thought were God at one point in my life...

 

I seem to be immune, I’ve been around for well over 4 decades, been to 30+ countries on 4 continents and nothing...I might have been vaccinated in my youth by my Mom & Dad with science. They’re old now and started to make turns here and there, life.

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44 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

the infinite improbability drive seems too... 

Are you sure?  I thought that was the whole point of the infinite probability drive...  however improbable, bang, it's there.   Maybe a mis-reading/misinterpretation from one of us.   What are the chances of that happening eh!?

21 minutes ago, koti said:

I seem to be immune, I’ve been around for well over 4 decades, been to 30+ countries on 4 continents and nothing...I might have been vaccinated in my youth by my Mom & Dad with science. They’re old now and started to make turns here and there, life.

Someone asked me to list some of the things here once... I was going to but it would be time consuming and thread crashy. I was going to do it in my thread about my own spiritual 'conversion' from Christianity to atheism - That's where I was asked to describe some of them...  but the guy ended up getting banned for something unrelated or just never cam back and I didn't get around to it.

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When we were at school the assigned school vicar gave a year assembly and changed water into wine.   I am pretty certain that they way done it was the way a magician would do it (rather than Jesus' published method).  He had 2 buckets...  one contained water and then he poured it into another bucket and it looked like wine (we were at school so were not allowed to try it out). .

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2 minutes ago, DrP said:

When we were at school the assigned school vicar gave a year assembly and changed water into wine.   I am pretty certain that they way done it was the way a magician would do it (rather than Jesus' published method).  He had 2 buckets...  one contained water and then he poured it into another bucket and it looked like wine (we were at school so were not allowed to try it out). .

I would have asked for bourbon but that's me.  

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20 minutes ago, DrP said:

When we were at school the assigned school vicar gave a year assembly and changed water into wine.   I am pretty certain that they way done it was the way a magician would do it (rather than Jesus' published method).  He had 2 buckets...  one contained water and then he poured it into another bucket and it looked like wine (we were at school so were not allowed to try it out). .

Isn't it blasphemy and/or a sin to do magic tricks and pretend they are miracles?

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1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

improbable

I would have wanted for it to be a bad April Fools’ joke but unfortunately this is for real. 

Edited by koti
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16 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Jesus...

I'm sure that wasn't his name. Can't remember what it was.

16 hours ago, Strange said:

Isn't it blasphemy and/or a sin to do magic tricks and pretend they are miracles?

... he said at the time that you can choose to believe what you like   -  'did I do a magic trick or did I perform a miracle? - it's up to you to choose what you believe'.   Not sure what he was getting at with that really, lol. It was C of E so maybe he was an unbeliever but followed the path of peace, love forgiveness, mercy etc.. without believing in god. That's not unheard of, although I fail to see why this type seek to become priests.   I'm glad I didn't join his all boy choir to be honest. :-/

 

 

16 hours ago, koti said:

You might think this is news from mid 12th century but this happened yesterday in Gdańsk:

Being fair the churches I have attended in the past do not like Harry Potter, Tolkien or anything like that.  Anything that 'glorifies' magic or normalises it or presents it as light and fluffy and good. Anything with witches in it, wizards or demons. They would see it as glorifying the devil.

PS - in fact it is the reason I've never been to a Halloween party in my life.

 

Edited by DrP
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5 hours ago, DrP said:

PS - in fact it is the reason I've never been to a Halloween party in my life.

You absolutely need to make a costume for this year. I suggest you put on Harry Potter glasses (do the lightning scar too), devil horns, carry a broom, and wear cloven-hoof boots. Go as Blasphemy!

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13 hours ago, DrP said:

...in fact it is the reason I've never been to a Halloween party in my life.

 

I can relate to that, I’ve spent significant time with conservatives in the US when I was a teen, good thing I was born and raised in good ol’ socialism in Poland, phew. :P 

Where you from DrP? I’ve seen you post for well over a year and I didn’t make it out.

7 hours ago, Phi for All said:

You absolutely need to make a costume for this year. I suggest you put on Harry Potter glasses (do the lightning scar too), devil horns, carry a broom, and wear cloven-hoof boots. Go as Blasphemy!

I’d go for an evil character in his case, it works for most if not everybody - the religious freaks from StarGate SG1 the series or the Emperor from the original StarWars, theres a bunch to choose from, Harry Potter sucks imo.

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3 minutes ago, koti said:

I’d go for an evil character in his case, it works for most if not everybody - the religious freaks from StarGate SG1 the series or the Emperor from the original StarWars, theres a bunch to choose from, Harry Potter sucks imo.

Seems pretty clear then. DrP should go as Mike Pence. 

Scary.

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