peterwlocke Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 So what do you think?(evidence or reason preferred) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 (edited) In the frame of the universe, I'll take the 'edgy boi option. Edited January 28, 2019 by StringJunky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Babe Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 My view on this topic (although it may not be a popular opinion) is that no lives matter, of course, compared to the vastness of the universe. It is actually strange to consider how much time has passed since the Big Bang to the first signs of human life on Planet Earth, and it is even stranger to consider that even if entire existence on this planet disappears, literally no one will ever know that there was once intelligent life, nor will our disappearance have any significant meaning or consequences in the cosmos. There were so many people that lived before our birth, and I presume that many people will exist after we die. But if we see this from a more narrow perspective, all those people who lived before us has a certain meaning for someone in their environment, some people thought that they were influential, powerful, while others did not think of themselves in that manner. In other words, different people = different characters. But after the time will erase them, what is left of them? - Absolutely nothing... History is constantly repeating itself, creating masses and masses of people, whom from a psychological aspect see the world through the lenses of their own use and pleasure, giving themselves a significant meaning, when in reality, they are something limited, without a special meaning for the universe, or even for Earth. I believe that the reality is that we all await the same end, after our death we may be mourned by a small amount of people, but they will not mourn their whole life for us. As the world existed before us, it will also exist after us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 (edited) Could our lives not be like the draught from the flapping of a butterfly's wings? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect This is me being contrary to my previous post. Edited January 28, 2019 by StringJunky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beecee Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 All lives matter from the point of view, or our own frame of reference, but taken in context of the frame of reference of the universe, we are an insignificant pixel of light. I believe this is adequately illustrated by the following..... http://www.planetary.org/explore/space-topics/earth/pale-blue-dot.html Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. The Earth is the only world known so far to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment the Earth is where we make our stand. It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known. -- Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot, 1994 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 What is an "edegy boi"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 4 minutes ago, Strange said: What is an "edegy boi"? Edgy Boi - A lad that thinks he's cool and avant garde but isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevim Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 All human life matters. Equal to no human life matters . Depends on your outlook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckleberry of Yore Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 5 hours ago, Space Babe said: But after the time will erase them, what is left of them? - Absolutely nothing... I suspect that perhaps a million years from now, our galaxy will be saturated with life. Most or all of that life will have originated on Earth. Of the intelligent lifeforms inhabiting various areas of the galaxy, some may well have no idea where their ancestors came from. But unlike us, they will have evidence of their immigration, and look to the stars and wonder where life began. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensei Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 Quote what is your view on human life. What with extraterrestrial intelligent life forms.. ? What with extraterrestrial life forms.. ? What with animals.. ? ps. Your question is human-centric.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Babe Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, Huckleberry of Yore said: I suspect that perhaps a million years from now, our galaxy will be saturated with life. Most or all of that life will have originated on Earth. Of the intelligent lifeforms inhabiting various areas of the galaxy, some may well have no idea where their ancestors came from. But unlike us, they will have evidence of their immigration, and look to the stars and wonder where life began. I agree with your opinion. Still, we don't exactly know what are the odds that other intelligent life forms like us have evolved within our galaxy. As to human beings, I think that the significance of life is mainly divided in two different and contradicting aspects. The first aspect says that human lives matter, manifested by the sense of humanity, equality, unity,... and in a way, it limits the perspective of people to see or at least to think that this aspect only matters within the boundaries of our planet, but not outside of its atmosphere. The second aspect says that human lives don't matter, manifested by our knowledge about the vastness, but also the great emptiness of the galaxy we live in. And instantly, that concept of equality and unity actually proves that we are equally and all together insignificant compared to the universe as a whole. Because the universe is so vast, it functions in a way that the most painful thing that people must understand is that nothing matters and that we are irrelevant. The perspective of "no lives matter" may only matter outside our planet's atmosphere, but I suspect that some people apply this mentality into human society, in a sense that those who are on the top of the hierarchical pyramid consider that every human can be an easily replaced number. Edited January 29, 2019 by Space Babe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 14 hours ago, Huckleberry of Yore said: I suspect that perhaps a million years from now, our galaxy will be saturated with life. Most or all of that life will have originated on Earth. Well we'd better get a move on then! If we leave now and travel at 1/4 the speed of light we can just get from side to side in about 400,000 years. And then we still have to find parking, get the spaceship cleaned, find a place to pitch the tent... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterwlocke Posted January 29, 2019 Author Share Posted January 29, 2019 wow, so many opinions I find all of them interesting. the ones i have read have merit. yes, it is human-centric but pretty much all we do is. and I pupersofully did not include a frame of reference i mean why limit views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckleberry of Yore Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 8 hours ago, Space Babe said: The second aspect says that human lives don't matter, manifested by our knowledge about the vastness, but also the great emptiness of the galaxy we live in. I can't say I follow this logic. Would a smaller universe imply some greater value on life? The fact that our physical form is as it is shouldn't devalue our existence. The itsy bitsy electron is pretty darn small, and we almost surely under-appreciate it's specialness due to our ignorance of what it's actually made of and doing and why. 12 minutes ago, zapatos said: Well we'd better get a move on then! If we leave now and travel at 1/4 the speed of light we can just get from side to side in about 400,000 years. And then we still have to find parking, get the spaceship cleaned, find a place to pitch the tent... Pardon a deviation from the present topic, but, as I've noted elsewhere, the exponential growth of technology suggests that humans might be travelling at 99% of c in a hundred years or maybe 10,000. And while it's unreasonable to imagine exceeding c, due to our present understanding of physics, it might be at least deemed possible. As for the specific query of this thread, I'd say first, what does it mean to "matter"? Is it valued positively? Is it valued negatively? Both of which I'd say imply "mattering". Further, who is doing the evaluation? I don't doubt there are individuals that consider humanity as a blight, and extermination would be "good" for Earth, or nature, or whatever. And I might ask, "Does my life matter?" Everyone asks this question, at least implicitly, every day. The people that are convinced of "mattering<=0" are probably the most at risk of violence against themselves and others. Generally, we consider these people "mentally ill". But just like in one's employment, or personal relationships, when the cost of an activity exceeds the gains, that activity is likely to be terminated. If my job sucks enough, I'll move on. If life becomes unbearable, well then the end is inevitable. Fortunately (my values inserted) this is fairly rare; people live out their lives until the body isn't sustainable any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuantumT Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 I chose "it depends", because there are many perspectives to answer from. - From an earthly perspective some human lives matter a lot, while many seem insignificant in the total sum of events. Imagine where we'd be right now without Newton and Einstein. - From a cosmic perspective we don't matter at all, like Sagan implied in his pale blue dot speech. - I'm an atheist, so I won't even bother taking the religious perspective, but it has one element that doesn't need divinity: Intelligent design (by proxy). And by 'by proxy' I mean a computer. In that scenario we are probably the only thing that matters in this universe. So, the answer actually depends on your preferred ontology. My personal ontology is not fixed, I am indecisive between Sagan and simulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckleberry of Yore Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 13 minutes ago, QuantumT said: And by 'by proxy' I mean a computer. Ironically, the possibility of our universe being LIKE a simulation begs the question of who/what is responsible for the computer. One interesting variant on this hypothesis is that the answer is: me. Perhaps I am a solitary and bored god who for entertainment value created a fascinating but painful and ultimately deadly universe and chose to be born into it. Of course not knowing I am the god makes it especially exciting. If this is true, then when I die, and recover my omniscient state, I think my next escapade will be to be born Aragorn in Tolkien's Middle Earth. I'd choose Harry Potter only if I get to marry Emma Watson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuantumT Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 16 minutes ago, Huckleberry of Yore said: Perhaps I am a solitary and bored god Why would a god need a computer? 16 minutes ago, Huckleberry of Yore said: only if I get to marry Emma Watson Why marry her, when you can just shag her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckleberry of Yore Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 8 minutes ago, QuantumT said: Why would a god need a computer? We are using the word "computer" loosely here right? It is whatever mechanism is providing the implementation of the "simulation", right? 9 minutes ago, QuantumT said: Why marry her, when you can just shag her? I guess I'm an old fashioned deity. Besides she's temporary anyway. Don't want to keep Arwen waiting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuantumT Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 34 minutes ago, Huckleberry of Yore said: We are using the word "computer" loosely here right? It is whatever mechanism is providing the implementation of the "simulation", right? I have no ontology that includes any type of divinity. It's a no go for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterwlocke Posted January 29, 2019 Author Share Posted January 29, 2019 heh 59 minutes ago, QuantumT said: Why would a god need a computer? Why marry her, when you can just shag her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Babe Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 3 hours ago, Huckleberry of Yore said: I can't say I follow this logic. Would a smaller universe imply some greater value on life? The fact that our physical form is as it is shouldn't devalue our existence. The itsy bitsy electron is pretty darn small, and we almost surely under-appreciate it's specialness due to our ignorance of what it's actually made of and doing and why. Maybe I did not express myself in the best possible way. My point was that, compared to the universe, the human race, and even our entire planet, has no significant meaning or influence upon it by any means. Our existence is not a factor that can influence the galaxy we live in, no matter its size. For now, we are aware of ourselves as the only intelligent life form that has evolved, but when it comes to the rest of space, we think of it as empty because we have not even traced any signs of extraterrestrial life, let alone any signs of intelligent extraterrestrial life forms. Humanity is under the impression that is it completely alone in the universe, that it is the only known form to possess self awareness about its existence. And maybe this impression is not far from the truth... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckleberry of Yore Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 42 minutes ago, Space Babe said: Maybe I did not express myself in the best possible way. My point was that, compared to the universe, the human race, and even our entire planet, has no significant meaning or influence upon it by any means. Our existence is not a factor that can influence the galaxy we live in, no matter its size. OK. But did you see my suggestion that life spreads from Earth throughout the galaxy and beyond? Of course, that is probably just science fiction, although you could argue that microbes on any of space vehicles leaving the solar system could see life somewhere else a billion years from now. Also, consider the 150 or so light years of radio transmission that grows daily and indicates our existence to more and more of the galactic neighborhood. It's not much, but it is something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckleberry of Yore Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 Edit: I meant to say "solar system could SEED life somewhere" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Babe Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 14 hours ago, Huckleberry of Yore said: OK. But did you see my suggestion that life spreads from Earth throughout the galaxy and beyond? Of course, that is probably just science fiction, although you could argue that microbes on any of space vehicles leaving the solar system could see life somewhere else a billion years from now. Also, consider the 150 or so light years of radio transmission that grows daily and indicates our existence to more and more of the galactic neighborhood. It's not much, but it is something. Yes, I see what you mean. And I agree that, although it may not be very relevant, it still proves that if not by internal factors, then any life form can be spread by external factors and by external factors I mean the possibility of humans to send, create or develop a life form on a extraterrestrial planet or body (intentionally or not). However, when it comes to spreading and seeding any signs of life, we would need to calculate the probability of that happening, as well as other considerations. For instance, if and how will they manage to survive in the harsh conditions of space, their adaptation to their new environment, their effects on it, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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