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The Border Wall or Fence

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8 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

It doesn't.

It means he prioritizes other things. I drive a vehicle. I realize it harms the environment, yet still do so. Does this mean I don't care about the environment?

It does because, as this ship Earth is in trouble, it's negligence of a very high order. It's all about scale; what you do is a piss in the ocean compared to decisions he makes as President.

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Just in case you missed where this started, Swansont and I are not debating whether Trump cares about the environment. Swansont seems to want to make the case that Trump doesn't care about the environment can be taken as an objective fact. 

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1 minute ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Just in case you missed where this started, Swansont and I are not debating whether Trump cares about the environment. Swansont seems to want to make the case that Trump doesn't care about the environment can be taken as an objective fact. 

Find evidence that he does care. Absence of that will support swansont. I put it that way because it's too easy to find stuff that shows he doesn't care.

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29 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Educate me. How?

President vetos. Both chambers bring up for a vote again. 2/3rds in favor makes it law. 

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Just now, iNow said:

President vetos. Both chambers bring up for a vote again. 2/3rds in favor makes it law. 

Right. Cheers. Is this a tactic by McConnell personally then, favouring Trump? Can the Speaker be over-ridden and a vote taken?

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7 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Right. Cheers. Is this a tactic by McConnell personally then, favouring Trump? Can the Speaker be over-ridden and a vote taken?

Yes to the first, No to the second.

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15 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Find evidence that he does care. Absence of that will support swansont. I put it that way because it's too easy to find stuff that shows he doesn't care.

With regard to what? His opinion, or his ability to claim it as fact?

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12 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

With regard to what? His opinion, or his ability to claim it as fact?

Both.  :)

Edited by StringJunky

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I am not defending Trump, nor am I disputing Swansont's opinion of him with regard to the environment. 

 

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Just now, J.C.MacSwell said:

I am not defending Trump, nor am I disputing Swansont's opinion of him with regard to the environment. 

 

Maybe you are being pedantic.

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26 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Is this a tactic by McConnell personally then, favouring Trump?

He is no fan of Trump, but he does come from a VERY conservative state. He quite nearly lost his last election. He’s up for election again in 2020. That’s his calculus. He can’t afford to piss off the Trump base. 

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19 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Yes to the first, No to the second.

Cheers. I do follow what's happening but I'm not as knowledgeable as you natives.

1 minute ago, iNow said:

He is no fan of Trump, but he does come from a VERY conservative state. He quite nearly lost his last election. He’s up for election again in 2020. That’s his calculus. He can’t afford to piss off the Trump base. 

Right. I have become aware recently that that some Dems and Republicans positions are strategic to support their political survival.

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48 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Is this a tactic by McConnell personally then, favouring Trump? Can the Speaker be over-ridden and a vote taken?

Yes to both.

Also, side note, the speaker of the house is the only speaker in the U.S. Legislative Branch. 

In terms of who holds the equivalent position in the Senate, that'd be the Vice President.

Senate rules allow for bills/legislation passed by the house to be placed directly on the Senate Calendar via a simple vote that any senator may call for before, between, and after any given bill is debated/talked about. Basically whenever they come into session.

40 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Yes to the first, No to the second.

Yes to both actually.

https://www.senate.gov/legislative/common/briefing/Senate_legislative_process.htm#3

 

Think about it. If the majority party leader in the Senate could simply refuse to hear any bill he wanted, he'd be far more powerful then the president because he'd have a veto that nobody could vote on. 

But he can't. The reason they're not voting on it is because they can't secure enough votes to vote on it.

Edited by Raider5678

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3 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Maybe you are being pedantic.

Certainly no more than Swansont. He claimed MigL should take Phi's list as factual and reply point by point despite the overwhelmingly obvious anti-Trump rhetoric. I allowed him a much more defendable position on Trump and the environment to demonstrate it, along with some other claims by Phi, were just opinions.

Not facts.

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22 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Right. I have become aware recently that that some Dems and Republicans positions are strategic to support their political survival.

Hardly. Virtually every position inside of the House and the Senate are limited in the responsibilities they're given, and the responsibilities they're given all have exceptions/workarounds.

For example. The Speaker of the House MUST recognize a representative wishing to speak, regardless of which party it is. He/she is free to give preferential treatment to certain delegates, but when it really comes down to it, it's very little of an advantage.

 

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2 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Hardly. Virtually every position inside of the House and the Senate are limited in the responsibilities they're given, and the responsibilities they're given all have exceptions/workarounds.

For example. The Speaker of the House MUST recognize a representative wishing to speak, regardless of which party it is. He/she is free to give preferential treatment to certain delegates, but when it really comes down to it, it's very little of an advantage.

 

That was referencing the electorate... keeping onside with the voters.

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23 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Yes to both actually.

https://www.senate.gov/legislative/common/briefing/Senate_legislative_process.htm#3

 

Think about it. If the majority party leader in the Senate could simply refuse to hear any bill he wanted, he'd be far more powerful then the president because he'd have a veto that nobody could vote on. 

But he can't. The reason they're not voting on it is because they can't secure enough votes to vote on it.

Can you please point out the specific portion of the rules you are referring to?

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25 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Senate rules allow for bills/legislation passed by the house to be placed directly on the Senate Calendar via a simple vote that any senator may call for before, between, and after any given bill is debated/talked about. Basically whenever they come into session.

You are technically correct. In practice, though, this is easily stopped (similar to a discharge petition In the House which are also easily stopped) which is why I answered how I did. All the same, I appreciate the correction. 

9 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Can you please point out the specific portion of the rules you are referring to?

He’s referring to the “Scheduling Legislative Business” section in Chapter 3

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37 minutes ago, iNow said:

You are technically correct. In practice, though, this is easily stopped (similar to a discharge petition In the House which are also easily stopped) which is why I answered how I did. All the same, I appreciate the correction. 

Doesn't it require a simple majority vote or am I missing something?

That's what I was referring to early when I said they couldn't get enough votes to vote on it.

It's possible I missed something. My state government operates very similar to the U.S. government, but not exactly the same. So there have been a few times where I've had misconceptions on how often different rules/motions are invoked, due to how much I work with the state government over the federal government.

+1 for taking that well.

43 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Can you please point out the specific portion of the rules you are referring to?

As iNow stated, Chapter 3.

59 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

That was referencing the electorate... keeping onside with the voters.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here. Could you clarify?

Edited by Raider5678

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21 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here. Could you clarify?

 

1 hour ago, iNow said:

He is no fan of Trump, but he does come from a VERY conservative state. He quite nearly lost his last election. He’s up for election again in 2020. That’s his calculus. He can’t afford to piss off the Trump base. 

 

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

Right. I have become aware recently that that some Dems and Republicans positions are strategic to support their political survival.

 

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1 hour ago, Raider5678 said:

 

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here. Could you clarify?

By"position" he meant the position they take on policy, not position in the government.

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The US has a huge problem with their government ( or lack of ) at the moment, and people are suffering
Some on this forum ( and Democrats ), seem to think that we need to be tough and eventually D Trump will change his mind, give in to the will of the people, act for their benefit, and be rational.

Does no-one else see how ludicrous that is ???

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1 hour ago, Raider5678 said:

Doesn't it require a simple majority vote or am I missing something?

We’re pretty deep in the weeds at this point, but it has more to do with ways of preventing that vote from ever happening (mostly something about rule 22 being changed in 1975 and enabling a two-track filibuster I believe, but this isn’t the best time or place to explore those rarified layers IMO)

33 minutes ago, MigL said:

eventually D Trump will change his mind, give in to the will of the people

I do think that, yes. You don’t? If not, why not?

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4 minutes ago, iNow said:

I do think that, yes. You don’t? If not, why not?

Because Trump has never struck me as a nice humble guy. His prides a pretty big deal to him, and backing down would be equivalent to kicking his pride, shooting it a few times for good measure, and then burying it 12 feet under just to make sure. In his mind at least.

I really doubt Trump will back down.

 

 

That being said, let me make a prediction on what I think will happen.

Trump will declare a national emergency, knowing full well that it'll get picked up by the supreme court and basically immediately struck down. After that, the budget is forcibly passed without funding for the wall, and the government reopens. Trump stands up and blames the Democrats and the judicial branch for stopping the wall, Democrats stand up and say they stopped the wall.

Neither side loses any major support from their base, government reopens, and by the next election cycle, most of this is forgotten.

41 minutes ago, MigL said:

Does no-one else see how ludicrous that is ???

I'm fairly certain Democrats expect Trump will take the easy way out and declare a national emergency, and are simply trying to out wait him there.

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