Boiling water destroys organism - How is that possible?

[safar.filip]

I was just wondering how is it possible that boiling water destroys organism. Human tissue for example. What happens to molecular structures? Do they move so fast so they can burn our skin? But how? Mars, Jupiter and other planets - they all have a temperature we simply can not survive. But what if we do something about it? Like editing our own body on molecular basis to allow us to survive these extreme temperatures. But as first we have to understand how does it work.

Could you please tell me?

[Sensei]

 

50 minutes ago, safar.filip said:

I was just wondering how is it possible that boiling water destroys organism.

e.g. denaturation of proteins accelerates with temperature. It's irreversible process. Like while boiling egg, egg white is irreversibly changed from transparent liquid to white.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denaturation_(biochemistry)

" Egg white is an alkaline solution and contains around 148 proteins. "

"Ovalbumin is the most abundant protein in albumen.  (...) Ovalbumin in solution is heat-resistant. Denaturation temperature is around 84°C, but it can be easily denatured by physical stresses."

Edited December 26, 2018 by Sensei

[safar.filip]

6 minutes ago, Sensei said:

 

e.g. denaturation of proteins accelerates with temperature. It's irreversible process. Like while boiling egg, egg white is irreversibly changed from transparent liquid to white.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denaturation_(biochemistry)

" Egg white is an alkaline solution and contains around 148 proteins. "

"Ovalbumin is the most abundant protein in albumen.  (...) Ovalbumin in solution is heat-resistant. Denaturation temperature is around 84°C, but it can be easily denatured by physical stresses."

Thank you for your answer, Sensei.

[BabcockHall]

DNA will also melt, meaning become single stranded, at sufficiently high temperature.  

[Phi for All]

On 12/26/2018 at 5:13 AM, safar.filip said:

But what if we do something about it? Like editing our own body on molecular basis to allow us to survive these extreme temperatures.

At some point in the far future this may be more practical and cost-effective than making some form of adaptive clothing, but for now it's MUCH easier to make a tool to solve specific problems than to physically change our bodies. Maybe a few centuries of using drones and robots will give us time to work on our own body editing.

[MigL]

Hummm…
You know what happens to water when it boils ( at 100 deg ) ???
It becomes steam vapor, and expands approx. 1600 times compared to water at 20 deg .

What would you think happens to cellular membranes when forced to expand 1600 times ?
( and how would you bio-engineer a resistance to boiling ? )

[iNow]

17 minutes ago, MigL said:

and how would you bio-engineer a resistance to boiling ?

By watching and attempting to replicate how nature did it:

https://www.pnas.org/content/97/24/12961

[MigL]

From your link, INow…
"Seafloor hydrothermal vents ( eruption of volcanic rocks at the mid-ocean ridges ) support ecosystems with enormous biomass."
( paraphrased/rearranged by me )

What depths are we talking about, and what is the pressure at such depths ?
More importantly, does water boil at that pressure ?
( obviously not, since these biomass live and rely on water for their energy red/ox reactions )

[iNow]

That link was about 15 years old. The point is that boiling has been and can be overcome. If we seek to engineer this, a decent first step is studying more closely where and how nature has already done so. 

Edited December 30, 2018 by iNow

[studiot]

8 hours ago, MigL said:

From your link, INow…
"Seafloor hydrothermal vents ( eruption of volcanic rocks at the mid-ocean ridges ) support ecosystems with enormous biomass."
( paraphrased/rearranged by me )

What depths are we talking about, and what is the pressure at such depths ?
More importantly, does water boil at that pressure ?
( obviously not, since these biomass live and rely on water for their energy red/ox reactions )

 

7 hours ago, iNow said:

That link was about 15 years old. The point is that boiling has been and can be overcome. If we seek to engineer this, a decent first step is studying more closely where and how nature has already done so. 

 

The critical point of water is 374^oC   (Standard steam tables)

Water around hydrothermal vents can reach 400^oC.   (Woods hole Institute)

 

So for at least some of that water around the vents 'boiling' has no meaning.

Edited December 30, 2018 by studiot

[MigL]

Agreed Studiot.
But I was considering what happens to cell membranes when there is an expansion from liquid water to steam.
At the critical point there is no expansion.

[studiot]

54 minutes ago, MigL said:

Agreed Studiot.
But I was considering what happens to cell membranes when there is an expansion from liquid water to steam.
At the critical point there is no expansion.

Surely that should be an if not a when?

In my limited understanding of cell biomechancis, the membrane already resistits positve pressure within the cell over the surroundings.

So the water would not initially expand, it would simply put the  water under greater pressure, until it ruptured due to overpressure.

So perhaps those organisms that iNow mentioned have stronger cell membranes?

It is increase in pressure, not volume expansion instead of pressure increase that causes rupture  of cells and steam boilers.

I suppose the organism could even have a mechanism for 'letting off steam', just like a boiler.

 

Edited December 30, 2018 by studiot

[MigL]

A lot of 'perhaps' and 'I suppose' in your post

At any temperature below the CP, boiling means a change from liquid to vapor, with a resultant volume expansion.
And Boyle says if this expansion is contained ( without much change in temperature ), a resultant proportional increase in pressure.
At 100 deg and 1 Atm. the expansion is over 3 orders of magnitude.
No cell membrane is able to contain that kind of expansion and related increase in pressure.

That is why when you burn yourself, you blister; skin cells rupture.
That is why an exposed astronaut ( vacuum ) will have all the water 'boil' out of his skin immediately.
( see what happens to Tim Robbins in Mission to Mars ( 2000 ), for an accurate representation )

But I suppose, perhaps, something could be done to delay the onset of boiling

Edited December 30, 2018 by MigL

[studiot]

25 minutes ago, MigL said:

A lot of 'perhaps' and 'I suppose' in your post

At any temperature below the CP, boiling means a change from liquid to vapor, with a resultant volume expansion.
And Boyle says if this expansion is contained ( without much change in temperature ), a resultant proportional increase in pressure.

"increase in pressure"  - Which is exactly what I said.

27 minutes ago, MigL said:

 

 

That is why when you burn yourself, you blister; skin cells rupture.
That is why an exposed astronaut ( vacuum ) will have all the water 'boil' out of his skin immediately.
( see what happens to Tim Robbins in Mission to Mars ( 2000 ), for an accurate representation )

But I suppose, perhaps, something could be done to delay the onset of boiling

Neither you , nor I nor Tim Robbins have ever been anywhere near the conditions pertaining near a hydrothermal vent.

I agree if we were ever subject to such conditions, the above might well happen.

But this thread is concerned with living organisms that live under such conditions.
Thus they do not change from our conditions to theirs as we would have to.
Your scenario is predicated upon a sudden change from our normal to hydrothermal normal.

I do not know what would happen if they were subject to conditions normal for us.

Do you?

I am just suggesting that investigating such questions might bring profitable answers.

[safar.filip]

Okay, guys)) Thank you for your answers. 

Edited January 10, 2019 by safar.filip