Is the proposal to do away with receipts bad practice and security or saving the planet?

[studiot]

This question was inspired by the following proposal on the BBC, to do away with receipts.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-46214514

[koti]

It would seem that its only logical to ditch all paper receipts but the practical side of doing so is not so easy at least where I live. I need to take a paper invoice at a gas station which later I deliver to my acoountant (I scan it and email it to her and once a month I give her the originals) To get rid of paper at my acoountants side it would take changing a large part of the law/legislation in the country, same with receipts in a grocery store. The whole law would have to be revised and that  in consequence costs massive amounts of money so nobody wants to touch it. They legalized the digital signature in the EU alredy a years back and that got rid of some paper but to get rid of it completely is for practical reason extremely difficult at the moment if not impossible. Literally every aspect of the economy would have to be modified.

[fiveworlds]

Receipts are a bad idea anyway. They aren't secure at all you can easily print a receipt but it is hard to fake a database entry on a secure server. Most stores keep digital records anyway to prevent fraud so it will get rid of the paper without much of an increase in electricity usage.

[studiot]

4 minutes ago, fiveworlds said:

Receipts are a bad idea anyway

I bought this bag of apples yesterday/this morning but when I opened it soem are rotten.
Here is the receipt.

I bought this expensive Barbour coat, but the zip broke after 3 months.
Here is the receipt.

 

Have you never been in this sort of situation?

[John Cuthber]

17 minutes ago, fiveworlds said:

Receipts are a bad idea anyway. They aren't secure at all you can easily print a receipt but it is hard to fake a database entry on a secure server. Most stores keep digital records anyway to prevent fraud so it will get rid of the paper without much of an increase in electricity usage.

So, what you are saying is that only the shop should have proof of purchase.
Doesn't their money already give them enough of an advantage?

 

On a related note

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/blair-claims-1m-expenses-without-producing-receipts-dchj99tjk

[Strange]

Several shops in the UK will offer to email a receipt instead of printing a paper one. There is an extra advantage that they will have your details on record so talking something back is not a problem even if you lose the receipt. 

[koti]

Then there is RFID with NFC in most modern handheld devices. „Everyone” has one but to obligate everyone to have one is a whole new level of abstract. It would be doable then.

[Endy0816]

1 hour ago, Strange said:

Several shops in the UK will offer to email a receipt instead of printing a paper one. There is an extra advantage that they will have your details on record so talking something back is not a problem even if you lose the receipt. 

Yeah, we have this and ability to opt out here at many places.

Sometimes you'll want to have some kind of record for yourself.  You don't really need or necessarily want this to be a paper copy though.

Would be nice if the process could be streamlined.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Endy0816

[John Cuthber]

In principle, I want receipts. In practice, the one for a bar of chocolate is a waste of paper.

[Strange]

In Italy it is illegal to leave the shop / bar without a receipt, even if you only had a cup of coffee 

[Carrock]

1 hour ago, Strange said:

In Italy it is illegal to leave the shop / bar without a receipt, even if you only had a cup of coffee 

If this is literally true it must be one of the least enforced laws in the world.

A reference for someone being prosecuted would be appreciated.

[Strange]

4 minutes ago, Carrock said:

If this is literally true it must be one of the least enforced laws in the world.

A reference for someone being prosecuted would be appreciated.

They do occasional spot checks. I don't know anyone who has been caught but there are always stories about "the Guardia di Finanza were here the other day and caught so-and-so ..."

[StringJunky]

4 hours ago, Strange said:

Several shops in the UK will offer to email a receipt instead of printing a paper one. There is an extra advantage that they will have your details on record so talking something back is not a problem even if you lose the receipt. 

if I do  it online I have an emailed payment card receipt, paypal receipt (usually) and site receipt; 3 records.

[studiot]

Well the overt reason for this latest attack on our dealings is to save the planet.

But this is immediately negated by the fact that this afternoon a well known large supermarket asked I wanted a printed receipt, and then proceeded to print out a toilet roll of coloured printed fake vouchers, which were in fact basically adverts.
I have seen the security guard stop people at the exit door and demand to look at he purchases in their bags.
What would they do without a receipt?

 

When value added tax came in it became a criminal offence to not supply a VAT receipt for all transactions.Fine but then the largest companies later became able to 'negotiate' their VAT with the taxman, rather than keep proper records and pay proper amounts of tax.

We also see this effect in other company taxes.

On the other hand, not issuing a receipt allows many smaller (or the individual local staff of larger) companies to falsify sales records.
The Italian coffee example for instance. I expect that in Italy, like here, restaurants are required to issue sequentially numbered receipts.
But if the next 20 customers 'done bother with a receipt, following receipt 521, then that is 20 sales that the restaurant can avoid declaring.

Edited November 18, 2018 by studiot

[Strange]

29 minutes ago, studiot said:

When value added tax came in it became a criminal offence to not supply a VAT receipt for all transactions.Fine but then the largest companies later became able to 'negotiate' their VAT with the taxman, rather than keep proper records and pay proper amounts of tax.

Small companies can also use a simplified system where an average rate of VAT, based on the type of business, is paid rather than filing full VAT returns.

[studiot]

22 minutes ago, Strange said:

Small companies can also use a simplified system where an average rate of VAT, based on the type of business, is paid rather than filing full VAT returns.

Have you ever tried it, particularly in a business with significantly variable financial inputs.
You then have to borrow to pay the tax on business you may not have actually generated yet.

 

[Strange]

3 minutes ago, studiot said:

Have you ever tried it, particularly in a business with significantly variable financial inputs.

Yes. (Well, variable income. Don't know about "significant"). Was never a problem for me.

 

[studiot]

2 minutes ago, Strange said:

Yes. (Well, variable income. Don't know about "significant"). Was never a problem for me.

 

Although I think this a bit off topic what if your business is selling Christmas trees.

What is your VAT for July?

 

[Strange]

25 minutes ago, studiot said:

Although I think this a bit off topic what if your business is selling Christmas trees.

What is your VAT for July?

 

Don't ask me. I never understood any of it!

[fiveworlds]

 

Quote

 

I bought this bag of apples yesterday/this morning but when I opened it soem are rotten.
Here is the receipt.

I bought this expensive Barbour coat, but the zip broke after 3 months.
Here is the receipt.

Have you never been in this sort of situation?

 

Of course but the shop will keep a copy of the transaction anyway. For instance I bought my phone in Tesco and lost the receipt then a couple of months later I had a problem with the phone. They know that the imei number on my phone matched a sale so I bought the phone. They also have my name and email address on record because I have a clubcard. With a paper receipt you have no security really. The shop can simply email you the receipt. Now the receipt way, you buy an expensive coat in three months time a thief steals it and damages the zip then prints a fake receipt. The thief can now go replace the coat in the shop for a new one with the fake receipt. Receipts are not as secure as printed notes which take expensive equipment they can easily be copied. Another example would be coffee coupons where you buy say four coffees and get 1 free. All a thief has to do is print a few coupons and they get free coffee.

[Endy0816]

You guys are kind of ecomomically crazy to use VAT the first place. Besides suggesting to go back to sales tax can't help you there.

Businesses can still be required to keep records. On the customer side you can make it optional though or move to digital receipts. If all everyone  is doing is scanning and emailing them anyways it just makes sense to save a couple  steps. If you don't use cash then you have that transaction record too.