DannyTR Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 Things without a start can't exist... its a simple proposition but if it were true, it would clear up some big questions about the universe. First, what do I mean by start? To be specific, for things to exist they must have: - Spacial start point(s). For example, a circle you can choose any point as a spacial start point. Yourself you could choose your feet as start points, etc... - A temporal start point. For example, your date of birth was when you started (roughly speaking) There are no examples of things without starts in the material world I can think of; so we could take that as empirical evidence supporting the proposition. If the proposition is true, we can we apply it to a number of things: - The universe must of had a start in time and space. - Matter/Energy must of had a start in time and space. - Time itself must have a start in order to exist - Infinity in general can't exist physically because it has no start/end. Purely a mental concept. So this proposition would generally be reinforcing of the 4D Space-Time view of the universe... Any thoughts? Any counter examples of 'things without starts'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 11 minutes ago, DannyTR said: There are no examples of things without starts in the material world I can think of; so we could take that as empirical evidence supporting the proposition. Can you think of any birds that have only black, blue, and yellow feathers? If not, can we take that as empirical evidence that they don't exist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyTR Posted October 14, 2018 Author Share Posted October 14, 2018 3 minutes ago, zapatos said: Can you think of any birds that have only black, blue, and yellow feathers? If not, can we take that as empirical evidence that they don't exist? No I can't but I'm not a Ornithologist. On the other hand I have much experience of objects and stuff which leads me to believe that everything has a start. I've spent a while thinking about it; but I can think of nothing without a start. Can you? And just logically; something without a start is a contradiction... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 7 minutes ago, DannyTR said: No I can't but I'm not a Ornithologist. On the other hand I have much experience of objects and stuff which leads me to believe that everything has a start. I've spent a while thinking about it; but I can think of nothing without a start. Can you? And just logically; something without a start is a contradiction... If something has always existed it doesn't need a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, DannyTR said: No I can't but I'm not a Ornithologist. On the other hand I have much experience of objects and stuff which leads me to believe that everything has a start. You are an expert on objects and stuff? As far as I know the universe didn't have a start. Edited October 14, 2018 by zapatos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyTR Posted October 14, 2018 Author Share Posted October 14, 2018 4 minutes ago, zapatos said: As far as I know the universe didn't have a start. So it can't exist. Reductio ad absurdum. The universe has a start. Everything has a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 7 minutes ago, DannyTR said: So it can't exist. Reductio ad absurdum. The universe has a start. Everything has a start. It's not our problem if your brain can't handle that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistermack Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 18 minutes ago, DannyTR said: So it can't exist. Reductio ad absurdum. The universe has a start. Everything has a start. Name one thing that has a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyTR Posted October 14, 2018 Author Share Posted October 14, 2018 12 minutes ago, StringJunky said: It's not our problem if your brain can't handle that. Its not a problem with my brain; Its just plain logically impossible for something without a start to exist. Everything has a start I think; unless you can you give a counter example? The only counter examples I can think of are concepts like infinity and that does not exist (there is no number oo such that oo > all other numbers because oo + 1 > oo). I can't think of anything real without a start and the universe is real so it follows in had a start; both logically and empirically. The Big Bang is certainly a strong candidate for a start of the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 1 minute ago, DannyTR said: The Big Bang is certainly a strong candidate for a start of the universe. The BB is regarded as the start of an epoch in the ongoing evolution of the universe, not the beginning of the universe itself. Time, as we know it, could have emerged with this epoch. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 1 hour ago, DannyTR said: For example, a circle you can choose any point as a spacial start point. If you can choose any point as a start, then it doesn't have a start. For example, you could say that the book I am reading starts at page 127 but that would be silly. 1 hour ago, DannyTR said: There are no examples of things without starts in the material world I can think of; so we could take that as empirical evidence supporting the proposition. Well, the universe might be one such example, we don't know. 1 hour ago, DannyTR said: f the proposition is true, we can we apply it to a number of things: - The universe must of had a start in time and space. - Matter/Energy must of had a start in time and space. - Time itself must have a start in order to exist - Infinity in general can't exist physically because it has no start/end. Purely a mental concept. This is the "black swan" fallacy. 46 minutes ago, DannyTR said: No I can't but I'm not a Ornithologist. On the other hand I have much experience of objects and stuff which leads me to believe that everything has a start. That is not very convincing. Once upon a time people thought all swans were white. For thousands of years no one had seen anything but white swans. But they were wrong. So your personal experience doesn't have much value as evidence. 47 minutes ago, DannyTR said: And just logically; something without a start is a contradiction... Please show the premises and logical steps that lead to that conclusion. Unless by "logical" you mean "well, it makes sense to me". In which case we can ignore it, 32 minutes ago, DannyTR said: So it can't exist. Reductio ad absurdum. The universe has a start. Everything has a start. This is the fallacy of begging the question. 11 minutes ago, DannyTR said: ts not a problem with my brain; Its just plain logically impossible for something without a start to exist. Is it? Please show your working. Otherwise this looks like a baseless assertion. 12 minutes ago, DannyTR said: The only counter examples I can think of are concepts like infinity and that does not exist That is not a counter example because (1) the concept of "start" applied to infinity is meaningless and (2) infinity does exist. 13 minutes ago, DannyTR said: I can't think of anything real without a start and the universe is real so it follows in had a start; both logically and empirically. Again, begging the question. You could equally validly say: There are real things without a start and the universe is real so it follows in didn't have a start; both logically and empirically. You have no empirical evidence that the universe had a start. So this is dishonest as well as fallacious. 14 minutes ago, DannyTR said: The Big Bang is certainly a strong candidate for a start of the universe. It might be. But there is zero evidence for that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensei Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 1 hour ago, DannyTR said: Things without a start can't exist... 1 hour ago, DannyTR said: Any thoughts? Any counter examples of 'things without starts'? So.. if God didn't have "start", he/she/it cannot exist.. ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyTR Posted October 14, 2018 Author Share Posted October 14, 2018 1 minute ago, Strange said: This is the "black swan" fallacy The logical error of discounting the possibility of something because no evidence has yet been observed for it... So you would not discount magic from a role in the creation of the universe then? Cosmology is an extension of the Natural Sciences and it should favour natural solutions rather than magical/spiritual concepts like infinity... finite solutions are much more compatible with a materialist world view. 1 minute ago, Sensei said: So.. if God didn't have "start", he/she/it cannot exist.. ?? Yep, off topic, but I think if God exists, he is timeless, that is he exists as a 4D object of finite spacial extents but with no temporal aspect. So God would exist permanently outside of time. Not permanently inside of time because then he would not have a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiot Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 I'm sorry did you say the function y = sin(x) has a start ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyTR Posted October 14, 2018 Author Share Posted October 14, 2018 13 minutes ago, Strange said: 59 minutes ago, DannyTR said: And just logically; something without a start is a contradiction... Please show the premises and logical steps that lead to that conclusion. I'm not sure I can; I think its axiomatic; a self-evident truth... there is nothing in reality without a start. It does not make sense logically for something to exist without a start. Something without a start is necessary not fully defined; IE it is undefined, IE it can't exist. 2 minutes ago, studiot said: I'm sorry did you say the function y = sin(x) has a start ? Well that is a mathematical function not a real world object. And it has a start for any real range of the function we plot; IE as soon as we try to make the function real, it has a start (IE where we choose to plot it from). I know its possible to imagine things without starts in your head using the concept of infinity; but I'm asking for examples of things without a start from reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 11 minutes ago, DannyTR said: So you would not discount magic from a role in the creation of the universe then? No. However, it would be very low down the list of possibilities because (a) we have no evidence for magic and (b) we have no evidence for the creation of the universe. 12 minutes ago, DannyTR said: Cosmology is an extension of the Natural Sciences and it should favour natural solutions rather than magical/spiritual concepts like infinity... Infinity is not a magical/spiritual concept, despite your religious beliefs. 13 minutes ago, DannyTR said: Yep, off topic Why is it off topic, as all your arguments are religious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiot Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 5 minutes ago, DannyTR said: Well that is a mathematical function not a real world object. And it has a start for any real range of the function we plot; IE as soon as we try to make the function real, it has a start (IE where we choose to plot it from That view sets you apart from all the worlds mathematicians. I, of course, used the expression in the standard sense, where it is defined to be without start or end. Equally the sine function is at least as real as the thoughts in your head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 5 minutes ago, DannyTR said: I'm not sure I can; I think its axiomatic; a self-evident truth... there is nothing in reality without a start. That is not axiomatic. It is a belief or an opinion. 5 minutes ago, DannyTR said: It does not make sense logically for something to exist without a start. Stop using the word "logically" when you have just admitted it is not a logical argument. You have no logic behind this. You are using "logical" to mean "this is what I believe". This is dishonest and very annoying. 7 minutes ago, DannyTR said: Something without a start is necessary not fully defined Why is is necessary? Because you say so? Quote not fully defined; IE it is undefined Pathetic. Not fully defined is not the same as undefined. As you are unable to make a logical argument, you should definitely stop using the word "logically". Quote IE it is undefined, IE it can't exist. That is almost as bad. There are plenty of things that cannot be defined but that definitely exist; art, religion, consciousness, obscenity, ... 10 minutes ago, DannyTR said: I'm asking for examples of things without a start from reality. The universe (according to some scientific models). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyTR Posted October 14, 2018 Author Share Posted October 14, 2018 1 minute ago, Strange said: Infinity is not a magical/spiritual concept, despite your religious beliefs I'm not a theist BTW. Potential Infinity, as in the limit concept, is not magical/spiritual. Actual Infinity, as in transfinite numbers is magical/spiritual: "Cantor's theory of transfinite numbers was originally regarded as so counter-intuitive – even shocking – that it encountered resistance from mathematical contemporaries... Cantor, a devout Lutheran, believed the theory had been communicated to him by God" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Cantor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 1 minute ago, DannyTR said: I'm not a theist BTW. So what. Your only argument is a religious one; ie not based on evidence or logic. 2 minutes ago, DannyTR said: Actual Infinity, as in transfinite numbers is magical/spiritual: If the transfinite numbers are magical/spiritual then so are the integers (and the reals, complex numbers, and all of mathematics). 2 minutes ago, DannyTR said: "Cantor's theory of transfinite numbers was originally regarded as so counter-intuitive – even shocking – that it encountered resistance from mathematical contemporaries... Cantor, a devout Lutheran, believed the theory had been communicated to him by God" How is that relevant to anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiot Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 As a matter of interest (how) can things which don't exist have a start? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 1 minute ago, studiot said: As a matter of interest (how) can things which don't exist have a start? Bazinga! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyTR Posted October 14, 2018 Author Share Posted October 14, 2018 Just now, Strange said: If the transfinite numbers are magical/spiritual then so are the integers (and the reals, complex numbers, and all of mathematics). No there is no problem with this integers, reals, complex numbers; they all behave consistently under the basic mathematical operators (+ - * /) and they all have mirrors in nature. How can the cardinality of an infinite set be anything other than magical? Just now, Strange said: How is that relevant to anything? Well because Actual Infinity was included in set theory because of religious rather than logical reasons. Cantor and Co believed God was actually infinite and mathematics was made to reflect this; much to its detriment IMO. -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 As this thread looks like it is a repetition of all your other threads ("I believe the universe is finite and will make up any old nonsense to support my faith") I might report this to the mods for closure. Just now, DannyTR said: No there is no problem with this integers, reals, complex numbers; they all behave consistently under the basic mathematical operators (+ - * /) and they all have mirrors in nature. How can the cardinality of an infinite set be anything other than magical? Well because Actual Infinity was included in set theory because of religious rather than logical reasons. Cantor and Co believed God was actually infinite and mathematics was made to reflect this; much to its detriment IMO. OK. As you are not prepared to have a serious discussion: reported. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistermack Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 1 hour ago, DannyTR said: There are no examples of things without starts in the material world I can think of; so we could take that as empirical evidence supporting the proposition. You need to define start. It's a vague term, that can mean lots of things. But without you defining it, this thread is a joke. When does a loaf of bread "start" ? Making it doesn't start it. It merely brings the ingredients together in a certain form. I asked you earlier to name something that had a start but you didn't reply. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts