curious very Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 Hi I'm newcomer here. I have got question about metals in vapor state. If metals are solids they've got metal bonding. So, what type of bonding this metals have at vapor state? This is first question. And second question is about conduction. Are metals in vapor state good conductors? If they are good insulators could someone explain me that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chenbeier Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 In vapour state you have single atoms, they dont have much connection each other and so they also not conductive anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiot Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 12 hours ago, curious very said: Hi I'm newcomer here. I have got question about metals in vapor state. If metals are solids they've got metal bonding. So, what type of bonding this metals have at vapor state? This is first question. And second question is about conduction. Are metals in vapor state good conductors? If they are good insulators could someone explain me that? 1 hour ago, chenbeier said: In vapour state you have single atoms, they dont have much connection each other and so they also not conductive anymore. I think it is a great deal more complicated than that. Furthermore mercury vapour, for example, is conductive. http://www.jetp.ac.ru/cgi-bin/dn/e_022_01_0089.pdf This is a big question. Vapour state materials may or may not be single atoms. Many are molecules formed from covalently bonded atoms. Hydrogen is one such and under some systems of classification is a 'metal'. But there is a fourth state of matter - the plasma state. This is formed from free ions of a material. The boiling temperatures of most metals are such that gaseous particles are highly energetic so a portion of them are always likely to be ionised. So there will nealy always be a measure of conductivity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acreator Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 (edited) Under what classification system is Hydrogen considered a "metal"? I assume that the only way it would be included is if it shared some properties with metals, in which case, which properties. Wouldn't most metal vapors be free molecules, considering the temperature required for a metal to become a vapor. Also, since metals rely on an electron cloud to connect to each other, at the temperature needed for a vapor, the electrons would be moving so fast that they wouldn't be able to latch on to other metals. Edited October 5, 2018 by Acreator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiot Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Acreator said: Wouldn't most metal vapors be free molecules, considering the temperature required for a metal to become a vapor. That's exactly what I said they were. 2 hours ago, studiot said: Many are molecules formed from covalently bonded atoms. 36 minutes ago, Acreator said: Under what classification system is Hydrogen considered a "metal"? Look at the most common of the many versions of the periodic table. Where is hydrogen placed (in which column ?) or just look here https://www.google.co.uk/search?source=hp&ei=C0q3W9uCOI2_gQbuso2gCw&q=metallic+hydrogen&oq=metallic+hydrogen&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l10.1408.4630.0.4936.17.11.0.5.5.0.276.1596.3j7j1.11.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..1.16.1732...0i131k1.0.cOwCtv_yKzo Edited October 5, 2018 by studiot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acreator Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 Well, actually you said that 8 hours ago, studiot said: Vapour state materials may or may not be single atoms. Many are molecules formed from covalently bonded atoms. The thing is that metal is not covalently bonded, it has an electron cloud to bond it. Although you could consider an electron cloud to be an extreme version of covalent bonding as all electrons are shared equally with all atoms. The point is that a metal vapor, unless there is a high pressure (allowing for collision theory), would form free floating atoms because there is reason for the individual atoms to stay together, there is no individual covalent bonding. And yes, Metallic Hydrogen was theorized to exist: "Metallic hydrogen is a phase of hydrogen in which it behaves like an electrical conductor. This phase was predicted in 1935 on theoretical grounds by Eugene Wigner and Hillard Bell Huntington. At high pressure and temperatures, metallic hydrogen might exist as a liquid rather than a solid, and researchers think it is present in large quantities in the hot and gravitationally compressed interiors of Jupiter, Saturn, and in some extrasolar planets." - Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallic_hydrogen The only reason Hydrogen is in Group 1 is because in it's non-ionic state, it has 1 electron and 1 proton. "Hydrogen can be placed in both group 1 and group 17 because its electronic configuration is similar to both the groups. Like group I elements, hydrogen has only one electron in its valence shell. Thus it can lose an electron to achieve a stable configuration like alkali metals and hence can be placed in group 1 (alkali metals). However, like group 17 elements, it requires only electron to complete its valence shell, thus it can also gain an electron." - Kirti Gogia, https://m.meritnation.com/ask-answer/question/why-hydrogen-can-be-placed-in-either-group1-or-group-17-in-t/periodic-classification-of-elements/3304042 Take a gander a simple search collection of images from "Periodic Table" in Google Images, the last image in particular: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiot Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Acreator said: Well, actually you said that Yes I did , how is that incompatible with other things that have been said? 1 hour ago, Acreator said: The only reason Hydrogen is in Group 1 is because in it's non-ionic state, it has 1 electron and 1 proton. So , I merely gave this as an example that hydrogen can be considered a metal and whne it is, its gaseous form is undoubtedly that of molecules, formed from covalently bonded atoms. I also gave experimental measurements showing that mercury vapour is a conductor. I also said that most metals only exist as vapour at higher temperatures and this brings other considerations. So how is any of that incompatible? Edited October 5, 2018 by studiot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acreator Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 10 minutes ago, studiot said: hydrogen can be considered a metal The problem is that metallic hydrogen cannot be a metal, it said in the article that it would exist in a liquid state, as the gravitational pressure would be too great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiot Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 (edited) So mercury is not a metal? What about the liquid stuff they make in a steelworks? Edited October 5, 2018 by studiot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chenbeier Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 All is a matter of temperature and pressure. Mercury can also be solid, lquid and vapour. Every element or compound can be like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiot Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, chenbeier said: All is a matter of temperature and pressure. Mercury can also be solid, lquid and vapour. Every element or compound can be like this. I think there are some doubts about solid helium, but I would have to look this up. Further the question of phases becomes more complicated when talking about compounds (alloys in the case of metals) as you get all sorts of complicated phase and eutectic diagrams. Edited October 5, 2018 by studiot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acreator Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 (edited) g Edited October 5, 2018 by Acreator didnt see posts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chenbeier Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 Solid Helium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiot Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, chenbeier said: Solid Helium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium Well there seem to be some references at the end of the article. Well done if someone has made solid helium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrock Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, studiot said: Well done if someone has made solid helium. I can't find a good reference but triple point helium was used in the Apollo lunar descent engines so it's been around for a while. Edited October 5, 2018 by Carrock clarification Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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