B Kavanough and MeToo

[iNow]

25 minutes ago, mistermack said:

But in case it doesn't, I still say get the message across to report every incident promptly.

Reporting an incident is reactive AFTER the harm has been done.

Being afraid to walk alone at night for entirely valid reasons is something we can instead address proactively.

We as men. We as humans. With our expectations and mores of behavior. By being clear about what is and is not acceptable. 

Thats not wishful thinking. That’s how change happens. 

Stop pretending I’m being Pollyanish. I’m not. I’m clear on how hard this is and that’s why I’m working so hard to recruit friends like you to support this. 

Edited October 12, 2018 by iNow

[MigL]

Seatbelts are also only effective AFTER the 'harm has been done'.
Do you dispute their usefulness ?

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, koti said:

You can't seriously believe that money, power, pollitics are not a factor in these high profile rape allegations?

 

1 hour ago, koti said:

I'm saying what I said which is exactly what I said. Nowhere I stated the allegations in the Kavanaugh case are false.
I don't feel I'm in a position to guess what percentage of women lie or fabricate rape allegations but I'm sure the majority of these cases do not involve hundreds of millions of dollars. 

You are saying what you said, huh. You made a rhetorical statement about money and politics. I am not sure what you are specifically saying. If you accept that most, nearly all, don't involve millions why bring up Christiano Ronaldo?

[iNow]

1 minute ago, MigL said:

Seatbelts are also only effective AFTER the 'harm has been done'.
Do you dispute their usefulness ?

No. Hospital visits are reactive after the harm. Seatbelts are preventative, much like us men coming together and saying stop this shit now.

Enough is enough, already.

Women shouldn’t have to feel afraid because of us. It starts with each of us. 

[koti]

5 minutes ago, iNow said:

Women shouldn’t have to feel afraid because of us. It starts with each of us. 

What about the morning in 1994 when I woke up besides somebody I totally didn't want to have sex with and I felt used and afraid. She deliberately got me drunk the night before, she was an exchange student from Canada and she was a predator - she haunts me in my dreams sometimes. I hope you will be taking my side too in this iNow, it is possible I will be needing some very expensive professional help to cope with my trauma. Don't you dare to laugh, this is a serious thing.

[NicholaiRen]

4 minutes ago, iNow said:

Women shouldn’t have to feel afraid because of us.

If a woman is afraid of me, that'd be her problem. I haven't done anything to warrant that fear.

Well. Besides killing a few people who were trying to kill me back in Cuba.

 

But regardless, back to the point.

Women shouldn't be afraid of all men simply because there are bad men, the same way we shouldn't fear all African Americans because there are a few bad African Americans.

The woman in the song appears to have a few issues if she believes everything she is saying there. She can't live on the first floor of an apartment complex because the male rapist doesn't know how to use stairs? I mean, I've never heard of a woman who couldn't live on the first floor for the reasons she's stating. A lot of them seem a bit far out.

 

Now, of course, there are other ones, like walking home late at night alone, however, that's something I wouldn't do either. I had a friend who got robbed once walking home late at night. It's basic logic that you take steps to avoid stuff like that. He went to the police and the police laughed at him, told him he shouldn't walk around late at night like an idiot. He didn't do it again and admits he made a dumb decision. Now, I'm not saying it's okay if a woman gets raped late at night walking home because it's her fault. That's stupid. What I am saying, is that this seems like a generally common thing you don't do.

 

Additionally, other things she mentions. She can't walk to her car while talking on the phone? Does talking on the phone somehow increase the likelihood of getting raped? I feel like it'd do the opposite, or maybe I missed something here.

Or opening her windows when at home alone. Do therapists just start flying in her window or something when she does that? Since when is that a thing?

Mind you, <70% of rapes are done by someone the victim knows.

I don't feel like the song accurately summed up the problems at hand.

The biggest problem in terms of rape is women(And a small number of men) being raped by someone they know.

I think one step is we should teach women how to identify bad relationships like abusive boyfriends, husbands, etc, and how to get out of relationships like that safely.

 

18 minutes ago, iNow said:

It starts with each of us.

This is something I don't understand.

The heck do we do? Tell men "Don't rape, it's bad!"?

I'm pretty sure men who rape people know it's wrong........ Just taking a guess though.

2 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Can we stop with the "zero evidence" stuff. Surely Ford's testimony isn't equal to zero. We can debate how much value it alone is but we all should be able to agree it is clearly more than zero. 

In which case Kavanaugh had evidence as well. Surely Kavanaugh's testimony isn't equal to zero. 

[koti]

6 minutes ago, koti said:

What about the morning in 1994 when I woke up besides somebody I totally didn't want to have sex with and I felt used and afraid. She deliberately got me drunk the night before, she was an exchange student from Canada and she was a predator - she haunts me in my dreams sometimes. I hope you will be taking my side too in this iNow, it is possible I will be needing some very expensive professional help to cope with my trauma. Don't you dare to laugh, this is a serious thing.

Hell maybe I'll ask MigL for help in finding her and press charges...afterall its only been a quarter of century and my trauma haunts me to this day. My life has been a living hell. Do you think it has a chance to stand in Canadian court? I have witnesses, her sister who lived here back then was all over me for a month after this that I took advantage of her little sister (she wasn't so little actually)

[mistermack]

17 minutes ago, iNow said:

Reporting an incident is reactive AFTER the harm has been done.

Being afraid to walk alone at night for entirely valid reasons is something we can instead address proactively.

We as men. We as humans. With our expectations and mores of behavior. By being clear about what is and is not acceptable. 

Thats not wishful thinking. That’s how change happens. 

Stop pretending I’m being Pollyanish. I’m not. I’m clear on how hard this is and that’s why I’m working so hard to recruit friends like you to support this. 

It's not Pollyanish, but to me it's rather stating the obvious, and I don't see where change is going to come from. Good thinking people already fully support that kind of reasoning, I don't hear anyone saying any different. I'll bet Mike Tyson would have signed up to those sentiments, earlier in the day. Sexual violence is usually a heat of the moment thing, and so long as women and men interact, those moments will always arise. I think that schools could do a lot more, both in discussing it, and education in how it gets out of hand, and the lifelong consequences for both sexes. If you have some mental preparation, you might spot the signs early, and take a different path. 

[NicholaiRen]

50 minutes ago, iNow said:

Page 23...

Just out of curiosity, if you don't want to participate in this discussion is there an obligation that you do?

[iNow]

13 minutes ago, koti said:

she haunts me in my dreams

But I doubt you feel the need to have a friend walk you to your car after dark. 

I’ve not likely had as much to drink as you. Let’s continue this tomorrow. Cheers. 

13 minutes ago, NicholaiRen said:

The woman in the song appears to have a few issues if she believes everything she is saying there. S

And I think you have a few issues if you don’t realize just how common her entirely valid fears are amongst all women on this planet. 

[koti]

3 minutes ago, iNow said:

I’ve not likely had as much to drink as you. Let’s continue this tomorrow. Cheers. 

Unfortunately I haven't had anything to drink tonight.

Edited October 13, 2018 by koti

[iNow]

14 minutes ago, mistermack said:

I don't see where change is going to come from. Good thinking people already fully support that kind of reasoning,

Change comes from MORE right thinking people being more vocal and supportive. It’s a battle of hearts and minds... and numbers. Can I count you among my allies in this?

15 minutes ago, NicholaiRen said:

Just out of curiosity, if you don't want to participate in this discussion is there an obligation that you do?

It’s not about obligation. It’s about respect.

I respect you enough to engage in difficult subjects maturely. Do you respect me enough to seek common ground instead of easy barbs and lazy trolls?

(btw, no is a perfectly acceptable answer)

[koti]

6 minutes ago, iNow said:

Can I count you among my allies in this?

Me, me, I can answer that one for ya. I'm all with you on this one buddy, I will start telling my two and a half year old starting tomorrow that it's bad to rape women. Gosh I hope when my little Peter grows up he will make the lady from the video feel safer. Lets keep our fingers crossed.

Edited October 13, 2018 by koti

[iNow]

I appreciate your support 

[Ten oz]

31 minutes ago, NicholaiRen said:

In which case Kavanaugh had evidence as well. Surely Kavanaugh's testimony isn't equal to zero. 

Of course, but he undermined the value of his testimony by misrepresenting (lying) about his past behavior. 

[NicholaiRen]

2 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Of course, but he undermined the value of his testimony by misrepresenting (lying) about his past behavior. 

Oh yeah, I forgot.

Three people came forward saying he was lying about his drinking habits. He's lying.

So are the 65 other people who came forward to say he was telling the truth.

[iNow]

Page 24...

[NicholaiRen]

14 minutes ago, iNow said:

Do you respect me enough to seek common ground instead of easy barbs and lazy trolls?

I do respect you enough, however, you have a bad habit of only quoting one part of my post and seemingly ignoring the rest.

 

I mean, take my post about the fears.

You quoted one part about me saying somethings wrong if she believes all her fears.

Address the fears that I brought to question and I can change my mind. That's how debate works.

You address each of my arguments and claims, and I address each of yours. That way we're not talking past each other.

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by NicholaiRen

[mistermack]

2 minutes ago, iNow said:

Change comes from MORE right thinking people being more vocal and supportive. It’s a battle of hearts and minds... and numbers. Can I count you among my allies in this?

Not if being your ally means degrading the principle of innocent till proven guilty. It took a long time to get that far, and the yardstick of "beyond reasonable doubt"  is still the best we have. After all, that's what the thread's about. 

I detest the crime of rape, but I can't see being vocal and supportive cutting much ice when the clubs are kicking out and people are heading off with a belly full of alcohol, and a million different agendas in their heads. My own approach is to advocate practical things that might actually make a difference.

Desiree Washington, Mike Tyson's victim, did just that, and I give her full credit for it. She not only stopped him in his tracks, she must have had a big real-world effect on the millions of young men who idolised him at the time, and quite possibly made some of them think twice. But she very nearly didn't report it.

Prof. Ford's example, on the other hand, of doing nothing for decades, and then getting nowhere when she did come out with it, is the absolute worst example for women faced with a similar dilemma.

[Ten oz]

21 minutes ago, NicholaiRen said:

Oh yeah, I forgot.

Three people came forward saying he was lying about his drinking habits. He's lying.

So are the 65 other people who came forward to say he was telling the truth.

Go back through the thread. The word of 3 people is not the evidence of his lying. This issue of his testimony and TV interview have been covered in detail with plenty of citiation. 

[iNow]

36 minutes ago, NicholaiRen said:

You address each of my arguments and claims, and I address each of yours.

You asked above about obligation. To be be perfectly clear, I’m under no obligation to address anything you say. 

I do hope to convince you and other readers to agree with me, but this is hardly a debate. To avoid confusion, you need to know and accept that this is a discussion. Try not to conflate the two. 

I shared previously that my replies are a sign of respect. Logic dictates that my nonresponse is quite likely a sign of the opposite. 

I won’t go so far as to call your other points red herrings, but the points I do ignore tend IMO to be irrelevant distractions unworthy of my attention. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

Go back through the thread. The word of 3 people is not the evidence of his lying. This issue of his testimony and TV interview have been covered in detail with plenty of citiation. 

Believe all women and believe everything negative about the accused...is that the new slogan? (with the unstated understanding of course... that you believe in due process, but look at the statistics... he has to be lying...)

When in this thread have you ever noted anything that might point to his innocence? It was so clear to you right from the start that he was guilty.

If it is so clear he is lying he will soon be impeached. If it is not clear, or become clear, he will not be.

 

[Ten oz]

7 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Believe all women and believe everything negative about the accused...is that the new slogan? (with the unstated understanding of course... that you believe in due process, but look at the statistics... he has to be lying...)

When in this thread have you ever noted anything that might point to his innocence? It was so clear to you right from the start that he was guilty.

If it is so clear he is lying he will soon be impeached. If it is not clear, or become clear, he will not be.

 

Kavanaugh got up in front of the nation and in his own prepared words complained about Hillary Clinton, basically called all democrats sore losers, and took one of the most combative tones against the Senate during a hearing I have ever seen. Your response to my criticism of that is to challenge why I never point out things which mean Kavanaugh is innocent? Kavanaugh mis-characterizes his past and was disrespectful to me via his treatment of my representatives (I live in DC but am a registered voter in CA. Feinstein and Harris are my representatives) and you think I should ignore it, focus on the sexual misconduct allegations, and think about all the ways he might be innocent of them. Both Ford and Kavanaugh were given time to make statements. Both were questioned by the Senate. It was Kavanaugh who lied and behaved like an entitled A-Hole. Pointing out the manner in which Kavanaugh chose to represent himself in no way removes due process or makes all men guilty till proven innocent.  

[Ten oz]

14 hours ago, Ten oz said:

One in five women and one in 71 men will be raped at some point in their lives. 91% of victims of rape and sexual assault are female, and nine percent are male. Here

With numbers like that should it really make women rest easy knowing it's better than 80's era Manhattan? By that logic segregation was better for blacks than slavery. Having a 20% chance of being raped it still terrifying. If you know you had a 20% chance of being murdered I bet you'd seriously up your security. 

 

11 hours ago, koti said:

What about the morning in 1994 when I woke up besides somebody I totally didn't want to have sex with and I felt used and afraid. She deliberately got me drunk the night before, she was an exchange student from Canada and she was a predator - she haunts me in my dreams sometimes. I hope you will be taking my side too in this iNow, it is possible I will be needing some very expensive professional help to cope with my trauma. Don't you dare to laugh, this is a serious thing.

 

11 hours ago, koti said:

Hell maybe I'll ask MigL for help in finding her and press charges...afterall its only been a quarter of century and my trauma haunts me to this day. My life has been a living hell. Do you think it has a chance to stand in Canadian court? I have witnesses, her sister who lived here back then was all over me for a month after this that I took advantage of her little sister (she wasn't so little actually)

Men are raped. If you are experiencing feelings from a past experience you had iNow and MigL probably aren't the best individuals to reach out for help. I strongly recommend speak with a professional therapist. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

2 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Kavanaugh got up in front of the nation and in his own prepared words complained about Hillary Clinton, basically called all democrats sore losers, and took one of the most combative tones against the Senate during a hearing I have ever seen. Your response to my criticism of that is to challenge why I never point out things which mean Kavanaugh is innocent? Kavanaugh mis-characterizes his past and was disrespectful to me via his treatment of my representatives (I live in DC but am a registered voter in CA. Feinstein and Harris are my representatives) and you think I should ignore it, focus on the sexual misconduct allegations, and think about all the ways he might be innocent of them. Both Ford and Kavanaugh were given time to make statements. Both were questioned by the Senate. It was Kavanaugh who lied and behaved like an entitled A-Hole. Pointing out the manner in which Kavanaugh chose to represent himself in no way removes due process or makes all men guilty till proven innocent.  

Then you have nothing to worry about. Your representatives will ensure he is impeached.

If they don't you are wrong to make that statement like it is factual.