Kids. What are your views on upbgringing.

[koti]

Okay so our 28 month old is driving us both nuts. He’s at an age where he’s testing us and we both agree that borders need to be established otherwise mayhem. He can literally throw a steel toy car at my Pioneeer amp 17 times untill I take the toy car from him and I’m sticking to not giving it back to him to try to establish the borders. At this point he’s entering the febrile spasm mode deliberately choking in agony which is fine by me, I’m sticking to not giving in. Analogous situations are happening a few times a day for the past 2 weeks or so and both me and my partner are basically in agreement about how to deal with it.

My question is, what are/were your ways of dealing with these things? Do you think theres a more efficient alternative to how we are trying to deal with this? 

[StringJunky]

They need to be constructively occupied. If they are doing something destructive, divert their attention to something that is interesting to them but constructive. A destructive child is generally a bored child. I think at that age you've got to guide them in their activities quite a bit. I don't think it's reasonable, at that age, to expect them to play peacefully on their own for long... they've got the attention span of a gnat.  For that reason, disciplinary measures, being stern are a bit fruitless. They've still got a lot of 'baby' in them and need pretty much constant, proactive attention to keep them stimulated positively.  Between 18 months and 3 years is probably the most demanding and testing time. The strongest measure I would use is to have a place for them to 'time out' where you are still in sight or just in the next room. A few minutes on the 'naughty step' or 'naughty chair' might be useful. "When you''ve calmed down, you can come in here again"... or something like that. Be calmly consistent. They like routine and predictability. Never show bad temper.

All stuff you don't want to hear.

Edited August 27, 2018 by StringJunky

[koti]

25 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

They need to be constructively occupied. If they are doing something destructive, divert their attention to something that is interesting to them but constructive. A destructive child is generally a bored child. I think at that age you've got to guide them in their activities quite a bit. I don't think it's reasonable, at that age, to expect them to play peacefully on their own for long... they've got the attention span of a gnat.  For that reason, disciplinary measures, being stern are a bit fruitless. They've still got a lot of 'baby' in them and need pretty much constant, proactive attention to keep them stimulated positively.  Between 18 months and 3 years is probably the most demanding and testing time. The strongest measure I would use is to have a place for them to 'time out' where you are still in sight or just in the next room. A few minutes on the 'naughty step' or 'naughty chair' might be useful. "When you''ve calmed down, you can come in here again"... or something like that. Be calmly consistent. They like routine and predictability. Never show bad temper.

All stuff you don't want to hear.

Oh man I really did not want to hear that  Good points though Stringy.

I don’t have a problem with occupying him as much as possible, Im lazy and I have to force myself sometimes because I know its my job as a parrent. Most of the time its an awesome experience for both me and my son though, he’s actually unusually calm, clean and pedantic for his age, he knows numbers and letters and he’s extremely well developed socially for his age. I give all the credit to myself for that for providing him with the sense of security and love he needs  

The issue here is different though...there are times when a kid deliberately test you and occupying his attention will not work every time, confrontation is sometimes inevitable and I wonder if there are alternative views (which make sense) on establishing those borders or maybe those borders aren’t neccessary at all?

[studiot]

Yes I agree with SJ. Confrontation or clash of wills is generally counterproductive.

At that age he doesn't have much weight to throw about (even if it is a steel toy)

Develop those learned habits and stances till he is 18 you will find out the weight a thwarted 18 year old can throw about.

 

The most amazing things I have seen is a tantrum in full flow stopped in an instant by simply changing the subject.

Grandma is coming soon. Have you seen this trick? etc etc

Try to divert his attention to something else then something else again.

 

Having seen it in action I have always tried to follow it, though I was never as good as the lady I was copying.

[MigL]

Keeping in mind that I've never been a parent ( and at the risk of derailing your thread Koti )...

Do you feel there is ever the need for a smack on the hand or bum of you little one ?
Can an emotional punishment ( say a time-out ) be more cruel than a smack on the bum, as it makes the child feel unloved ?
And I certainly don't mean physicality in afit of rage, but a controlled 'punishment' tailored to a specific unwanted action.

As an example, your child is playing with his soon, and has become curious about the electrical outlet next to his high-chair.
He tries to stick the end of the metal spoon in the outlet.
Do you give him a sharp smack on the hand, making it clear that probing electrical outlets is forbidden; Or do you reason with him, try to explain the dangers, and hope that he doesn't do it again when you're not looking.

I know I received the occasional smack when I was growing up, and I didn't and still don't see a problem with my upbringing.
But times have changed, and as I've never been in the situation, I don't know how sensible/intelligent people deal with raising children.

( not that I'm planning on having kids anytime soon )

Edited August 27, 2018 by MigL

[zapatos]

I agree completely with SJ and studiot. Diversion is one of your best allies.

I put up as few limits as possible, because limits are a point of confrontation. The limits I used were primarily for safety and not annoying those around us.

As far as corporal punishment, I never hit either of my children. Not even a slap on the wrist. I don't know if corporal punishment has any lasting long term affects on children. I just didn't do it because I felt I could find an alternative, and because it would have made me feel awful. I couldn't smack my kids any more than I could smack my wife.

[StringJunky]

37 minutes ago, MigL said:

Keeping in mind that I've never been a parent ( and at the risk of derailing your thread Koti )...

Do you feel there is ever the need for a smack on the hand or bum of you little one ?
Can an emotional punishment ( say a time-out ) be more cruel than a smack on the bum, as it makes the child feel unloved ?
And I certainly don't mean physicality in afit of rage, but a controlled 'punishment' tailored to a specific unwanted action.

As an example, your child is playing with his soon, and has become curious about the electrical outlet next to his high-chair.
He tries to stick the end of the metal spoon in the outlet.
Do you give him a sharp smack on the hand, making it clear that probing electrical outlets is forbidden; Or do you reason with him, try to explain the dangers, and hope that he doesn't do it again when you're not looking.

I know I received the occasional smack when I was growing up, and I didn't and still don't see a problem with my upbringing.
But times have changed, and as I've never been in the situation, I don't know how sensible/intelligent people deal with raising children.

( not that I'm planning on having kids anytime soon )

I think, If they are curious in that way, try and show them and let them experience the danger in a safe, controlled way, so they get a real sense of things like 'hurts', 'sharp', 'hot' etc. Like when they start to walk they want to run too soon. Tell them they'll fall over and hurt themselves... and they do. Let them touch the the side of your hot coffee cup to let them experience 'hot'. They'll learn about electricity if they ever go on a trampoline and get a shock when they step off!  All these mundane things to us adults are fresh, new, meaningful experiences for a two year old and up.

Forbidding children from things only strengthens their desire to do it... such is curiosity. Better to let them do it, within reason, under controlled circumstances, or something similar, so they know what you mean. Eventually, they'll take your word for it, but to start, they they need to have a visceral sense of certain basic concepts like 'danger' and that can only be learned by first hand experience. Trust has to be earned, it is not given. Corporal punishment, however mild, just causes a person to withdraw or react with the same.

Edited August 27, 2018 by StringJunky

[iNow]

Put a gate up around your important stuff. Block them from getting to it instead of expecting them to know enough to leave it alone. 

If they're throwing hard things, replace those things with soft things (like nerf balls or wadded up paper, whatever).

Being angry with a toddler is like being angry with a tree for dropping a branch. It's not helpful. TBH, it's kinda dumb. The tree won't respond the way you want. Same with kiddos. Look inward to find calm and perspective, or if that's too hard... just leave for a little while.

The kids still trying to figure out how the world works. Give them more appropriate things to occupy and satisfy that curiosity. 

[koti]

1 hour ago, studiot said:

Yes I agree with SJ. Confrontation or clash of wills is generally counterproductive.

At that age he doesn't have much weight to throw about (even if it is a steel toy)

Develop those learned habits and stances till he is 18 you will find out the weight a thwarted 18 year old can throw about.

 

The most amazing things I have seen is a tantrum in full flow stopped in an instant by simply changing the subject.

Grandma is coming soon. Have you seen this trick? etc etc

Try to divert his attention to something else then something else again.

 

Having seen it in action I have always tried to follow it, though I was never as good as the lady I was copying.

My partner and my Mom are experts at diversions, I'm learning from them and I'm becoming good at it too. It does work wonders.

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Keeping in mind that I've never been a parent ( and at the risk of derailing your thread Koti )...

Do you feel there is ever the need for a smack on the hand or bum of you little one ?
Can an emotional punishment ( say a time-out ) be more cruel than a smack on the bum, as it makes the child feel unloved ?
And I certainly don't mean physicality in afit of rage, but a controlled 'punishment' tailored to a specific unwanted action.

As an example, your child is playing with his soon, and has become curious about the electrical outlet next to his high-chair.
He tries to stick the end of the metal spoon in the outlet.
Do you give him a sharp smack on the hand, making it clear that probing electrical outlets is forbidden; Or do you reason with him, try to explain the dangers, and hope that he doesn't do it again when you're not looking.

I know I received the occasional smack when I was growing up, and I didn't and still don't see a problem with my upbringing.
But times have changed, and as I've never been in the situation, I don't know how sensible/intelligent people deal with raising children.

( not that I'm planning on having kids anytime soon )

When I was 15 or 16 I stole money from my Dad's wallet and got hit on the face. I think that my Dad not only had the right to do that but it was his responsibility as a Father to do so (he actually came in appologizing to me a day later which I think was a mistake) Appart from that, I never experienced violence from my family.
Having said that, I think hitting or smacking a 2 year old in any way is both useless and deplorable, a small kid like that will not understand that the punishment was an implication of him sticking his fingers into the outlet. Ofcourse an occasional smack in certain situations is something I consider ok with older kids. I presume people who are advocating zero tollerance for any kind of physical contact are the ones that may have been abused when they were children. 

11 minutes ago, iNow said:

Put a gate up around your important stuff. Block them from getting to it instead of expecting them to know enough to leave it alone. 

If they're throwing hard things, replace those things with soft things (like nerf balls or wadded up paper, whatever).

Being angry with a toddler is like being angry with a tree for dropping a branch. It's not helpful. TBH, it's kinda dumb. The tree won't respond the way you want. Same with kiddos. Look inward to find calm and perspective, or if that's too hard... just leave for a little while.

The kids still trying to figure out how the world works. Give them more appropriate things to occupy and satisfy that curiosity. 

Good points iNow. Looks like you know what youre talking about.

[zapatos]

3 minutes ago, koti said:

 I presume people who are advocating zero tollerance for any kind of physical contact are the ones that may have been abused when they were children. 

 

That's a pretty big presumption.

[iNow]

13 minutes ago, koti said:

I presume people who are advocating zero tollerance for any kind of physical contact are the ones that may have been abused when they were children. 

Or, perhaps they're just informed on what the science says.

https://www.sciencealert.com/science-why-you-should-never-spank-children

Quote

The research clearly shows that spanking is related to an increased likelihood of many poor health, social and developmental outcomes. These poor outcomes include mental health problems, substance use, suicide attempts and physical health conditions along with developmental, behavioural, social and cognitive problems.

Equally important, there are no research studies showing that spanking is beneficial for children.

Those who say spanking is safe for a child if done in a specific way are, it would seem, simply expressing opinions. And these opinions are not supported by scientific evidence.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-science-says-and-doesn-t-about-spanking/

Quote

Studies continue to find that spanking predicts negative behavior changes—there are no studies showing that kids improve

 

[Sensei]

3 hours ago, koti said:

He can literally throw a steel toy car at my Pioneeer amp 17 times untill

Did you ask him why he is doing it.. ?

Such behavior has some source. Lack of attention from parents comes to mind the first. By doing something which he knows will upset you, he is informing that "I am here!"..

At such age some kids are even able to read books.. Did you teach him?

 

 

Edited August 27, 2018 by Sensei

[iNow]

5 minutes ago, Sensei said:

At such age some kids are even able to read books.. Did you teach him?

I'm sure there are some, but it would be extremely rare for a child to already be able to read after just turning 2.

[zapatos]

3 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Did you ask him why he is doing it.. ? At such age some kids are even able to read books.. Did you teach him?

Such behavior has some source. Lack of attention from parents comes to mind the first. By doing something which he knows will upset you, he is informing that "I am here!"..

When I was very young, my dad replaced a step on our back porch, then nicely painted it. I noticed he left a phillips head screwdriver outside and out of curiosity I poked it into the step. Seeing what a neat imprint it made, I then proceeded to put a hundred or so additional indentations into the step.

Sometimes the source of the behavior is just that it is fun from the perspective of the kid.

[Sensei]

3 hours ago, koti said:

at my Pioneeer amp 17 times

Compulsive behavior..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsive_behavior

Was Pioneeer amp turned on? If it was turned on, maybe he didn't like the music? Or it was too loud for him..

 

7 minutes ago, iNow said:

I'm sure there are some, but it would be extremely rare for a child to already be able to read after just turning 2.

That depends on parent, whether child is talking, reading and writing. People spending little time with kid and/or not talking with him/her, not reading books, not teaching how each letter is looking like etc. etc. obviously will have illiterate kids..

Edited August 27, 2018 by Sensei

[zapatos]

Fun...

 

[koti]

36 minutes ago, zapatos said:

That's a pretty big presumption.

I’m not going to defend it, Im not basing it on any evidence. Im thinking that maybe abnormal behaviour and abuse experienced in childhood might end up in very strict stances later in adulthood...may it be abusing your own children or advocating for taking parents’s custody rights for spanking.

24 minutes ago, iNow said:

Or, perhaps they're just informed on what the science says.

https://www.sciencealert.com/science-why-you-should-never-spank-children

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-science-says-and-doesn-t-about-spanking/

 

Informative, thanks iNow. To set the record straight, Im not advocating for spanking children. I see mothers spank their children or treat them like rag dolls pulling by clothes, etc and its really sad and disturbing.

20 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Did you ask him why he is doing it.. ? At such age some kids are even able to read books.. Did you teach him?

Such behavior has some source. Lack of attention from parents comes to mind the first. By doing something which he knows will upset you, he is informing that "I am here!"..

Sure Sensei. I would love to see you ask my kid why he’s doing it. You can teach him how to read too while at it (he knows half of the alphabet and knows the concept of numbers btw) He doesn’t speak yet, only about 20-30 words and learns new ones every day. He’s 2

Lack of attention is one cause but 2 year olds tend to revolt against their parrents to test where the borders are, how far he can go...and thats what we’re experiencing. On top of it being irritsting its also very amusing as a stage in a small persons dvelopment.

12 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Compulsive behavior..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsive_behavior

Was Pioneeer amp turned on? If it was turned on, maybe he didn't like the music? Or it was too loud for him..

Man, you crack me up

The „Pioneer amp” was not turned on, he likes dancing by the way, hes exposed to music very often and loves it, I used to make my life as a dj in late 90’s early 2000’s. 

10 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Fun...

 

That looks like 5 years old. My little lovely devil is 2  I play with him every day btw...I have other kids from previous marriage whom Im not able to see so I’m really into spending time with Peter.

46 minutes ago, iNow said:

I'm sure there are some, but it would be extremely rare for a child to already be able to read after just turning 2.

He reads individual letters and numbers plus he knows the concept of 1 car, 2 ice cream, 3 trucks, etc. As his dad, I ofcourse consider this as behaviour of a genius at 28 months  

Edited August 27, 2018 by koti