If (illicit) drugs were legal.

[koti]

3 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

Do you realise that alcohol is- in fact- classed as a soft drug?

That's because, in fact, the distinction is political, rather than scientific.
So, the two posts f mine which you quoted say exactly the same thing.

 

Why don't you understand that?

Also, if you use this definition then there are relatively few "hard" drugs - essentially barbiturates and alcohol- maybe some of the benzodiazepines too.

What's the  point in splitting drugs into 2 groups where almost all of them are "soft"?

 You can legally buy magic mushrooms in Amsterdam while facing 8 years in jail for the same a few hundred km away - so what? The scientific distinction is there nevertheless, you just layed it out, the moronic legislation is a different issue. 

[Ten oz]

29 minutes ago, koti said:

Would you agree that this aproach would not work in all circumstances and that the laws would need to be tweeked accordingly based on the environment we are implementing them in? IIRC, Portugal had a pandemia of heroin usage resulting in need to implement solutions by whatever means possible, these solutions would not be adequate in California or London. Berlin had its own story and I'm not sure which years you are refering to, possession of hard drugs are as far as I know very much illegal in Germany, there might have been programs to pass out needles and/or put people on methadone but that was in the 90's I think. If we can agree that the approach you are proposing would not be adequate in all circumstances then we need to find out what would be adequate, surely we cannot have varying laws implemented depending on factors. 

What is your standard for adequate? California, London, Berlin, and Portugal all have addicts. If your goal is zero addicts no country or region of the world is currently is adequate. Treating drug abuse as a medical problem rather than a legal problem isn't actually that big a change. Hundreds of billions of dollars a year is already being spent around the world to provide medical care for addiction. So switching from a legal focus to a medical focus would save the billions currently being spent within legal systems. Here is the U.S. we counter drug units attached to any number of agencies like the Drug Enforcement Admin, Custom Border Protection, Coast Guard, and FBI. Locally every major metro's Police Dept. has their own special narcotics teams. Countless arrests are made, millions of people have gone to prison, millions put on probation, trillions of dollars has been spent between federal and local efforts and yet drugs are still available in every town seemingly without exception in the USA. Imagine if all that infrastructure (professional staff, facilities, and $trillions) went towards things like education  and childcare. 

[dimreepr]

41 minutes ago, koti said:

Would you agree that this aproach would not work in all circumstances

1

I don't see why. If it's legalised, the only way to do that is to make it all legal, the growing/manufacture, the supply chain, and use. 

47 minutes ago, koti said:

the laws would need to be tweeked accordingly based on the environment we are implementing them in?

Not laws, regulations would need to be tweaked to include them in tax collection. 

50 minutes ago, koti said:

IIRC, Portugal had a pandemia of heroin usage resulting in need to implement solutions by whatever means possible, these solutions would not be adequate in California or London. Berlin had its own story and I'm not sure which years you are refering to, possession of hard drugs are as far as I know very much illegal in Germany, there might have been programs to pass out needles and/or put people on methadone but that was in the 90's I think. If we can agree that the approach you are proposing would not be adequate in all circumstances then we need to find out what would be adequate, surely we cannot have varying laws implemented depending on factors. 

Not only does illicit drug taking happen despite the harshest of countermeasures, but the major driver of addiction is poverty. The only logical answer is to accept the first and, use the money saved and raised (by legalisation) to alleviate the second; of course, it won't stop drug abuse but then nothing ever does.

And by tax, I don't mean punitive tax's like we have in England for alcohol and tobacco; all that does is create the same conditions as making it illegal, profit for criminals...

[MigL]

Alcohol may indeed be a dangerous 'drug', John, but it is used differently.
While a small minority would suffer alcohol withdrawl symptoms, the vast majority have a drink with their dinner, or after a work day to 'take the edge off'.
No one I know inhales half a toke ( and tosses the rest of their joint ), or a couple of grains of coke ( and saves the rest of the line for tomorrow ), just to relax.

And just to play devil's advocate, CharonY...

Having expensive stuff makes me feel good.
Hitting people who have wronged me also makes me feel good.
Feeling good is very addictive.
can we then say that theft ( to support my need for expensive stuff ) and violence ( retribution for those who have wronged me ) are medical problems and not criminal problems ?
the only difference is theft and violence hurts specific individuals while drug use hurts society as a whole.

IOW are we just doing some 'creative accounting' with the problems by moving it from one column to another ?

[dimreepr]

8 minutes ago, MigL said:

Alcohol may indeed be a dangerous 'drug', John, but it is used differently.

 

Is it? 

11 minutes ago, MigL said:

While a small minority would suffer alcohol withdrawl symptoms, the vast majority have a drink with their dinner, or after a work day to 'take the edge off'.

That doesn't mean they're any less addicted, that's one of the qualities of addicts, the vast majority deny they are...

15 minutes ago, MigL said:

No one I know inhales half a toke ( and tosses the rest of their joint ), or a couple of grains of coke ( and saves the rest of the line for tomorrow ), just to relax.

 

Who do you know that takes half a sip of their pint of beer or glass of wine and puts the rest in the fridge for tomorrow? I''m very relaxed when I smoke a doob. 

Not so much when I snort a line a line of coke, but it does take the edge off.

[MigL]

Reminds me of my yearly work  medical a few years back ( with a new doctor ), Dimreepr.

He asked me how many drinks a week I consume, and I replied about 10-12.
He then stated that needing one or two drinks per day makes me an alcoholic.
To which I calmly replied that I only drink one day per week.

Edited August 18, 2018 by MigL

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, MigL said:

Reminds me of my yearly work  medical a few years back ( with a new doctor ), Dimreepr.

He asked me how many drinks a week I consume, and I replied about 10-12.
He then stated that needing one or two drinks per day makes me an alcoholic.
To which I calmly replied that I only drink one day per week.

I only smoke a reefer once or twice a month (when I can afford it).

[John Cuthber]

1 hour ago, koti said:

the moronic legislation is a different issue. 

And it is that moronic legislation that distinguishes "hard" + "soft" drugs, by, for example, giving stricter sentences for possession of what the government deems "hard" drugs.

They are social and, to a degree, legal terms. They are not scientific ones.

35 minutes ago, MigL said:

Alcohol may indeed be a dangerous 'drug', John, but it is used differently.

Quite, and that's another reason why the "hard" vs "soft" classification of the drugs is unhelpful, and unscientific..

[koti]

Its all bery subjective. I remmebr taking my friend to AA a few years back, he got his initial interviewer asking him when was the last time he remembers loosing consciousness and he replied never. He was told to come back when he is ready to be sincere and we went out. My friend drinks every day since he was 13 years old, he’s 44 now, manages to keep his work and personal life together but he’s drunk every single day without ever crossing the line of crawling alongside a street or throwing up all over himslef. The devastation in his brain must be horrible though, I literally have to arrange a meeting with him the same day we’re supposed to meet because otherwise he forgets. He foes manage to run a succesfull company, drive a new BMW and keep his marriage together somehow - I can’t imagine him shooting heroin every day for 30 years straight and be able to function or be alive for that matter. 

Anyway...I think in general I agree with John, TenOZ and John. What bothers me is how many new users would emerge after implementing liberal drug laws, is there any reliable data on this? I once had a joint taken away from me by cops in mid 90’s here in Warsw, he told me to never buy drugs again and told me to f off. Years later my younger brother’s friend got 2 years probation for possession of 0,3gr of pot - these kinds of stories are obviously ridiculous and the law need to be adressed - I’m sure its a lot worse than this in the US. 

[StringJunky]

24 minutes ago, MigL said:

Reminds me of my yearly work  medical a few years back ( with a new doctor ), Dimreepr.

He asked me how many drinks a week I consume, and I replied about 10-12.
He then stated that needing one or two drinks per day makes me an alcoholic.
To which I calmly replied that I only drink one day per week.

That makes you a binger.

[Moontanman]

52 minutes ago, MigL said:

No one I know inhales half a toke ( and tosses the rest of their joint ), or a couple of grains of coke ( and saves the rest of the line for tomorrow ), just to relax.

 

Everyone I know takes a toke or two and then saves the rest for next time. In fact that is one of the oddest things about pot. You smoke enough to get the buzz you want then put the rest down for later. It lends itself very well to one hit bongs due to this. I have no idea about coke, I've never used it but pot is no doubt a drug you only use a small amount and save the rest, whether it's part of a bong hit or part of a joint. I honestly know of no one who doesn't do this... 

[koti]

21 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

That makes you a binger.

Thats more smokers territory  

I have it the same as MigL, I never have 1 or 2 drinks, whats the point. I never favour a drink the day after though, I prefer to suffer through the hangover, the idea of intoxicating myself when suffering from the intoxication is just wrong to me. Having a single drink on a saturday night with friends would be like having sex and stop half way through to save it for later. 

Edited August 18, 2018 by koti

[John Cuthber]

25 minutes ago, koti said:

I can’t imagine him shooting heroin every day for 30 years straight and be able to function or be alive for that matter. 

Your imagination is irrelevant.
There are people who use heroin (under it's more respectable name of diamorphine) regularly for years.

In terms of toxic damage done to the body, alcohol is worse- simply because the doses (ounces rather than milligrams)are so much bigger.

 

28 minutes ago, koti said:

how many new users would emerge after implementing liberal drug laws, is there any reliable data on this?

Of course there is.
Several countries have relaxed the legislation on drugs- notably Holland and Portugal. There is typically a small increase in the number of users of pot (and a slight drop in alcohol use).
There's a huge saving on police time etc.
The problem isn't people using drugs. There is a problem with people how use them too much, or too often.
But there's a huge problem with people who are injured- not by the drug use, but by the illegality of that use.
The people killed in gang wars over drug territories are killed by the fact that the drugs are illegal.
The people who die of overdoses from drugs that were sold with uncontrolled strength and make-up were killed by the fact that the drugs are illegal.
The people who die from infections from sharing needles are killed by the fact that the drugs are illegal.

We could save most of those people.

Why are we not donig so?

 

[dimreepr]

39 minutes ago, koti said:

Its all bery subjective. I remmebr taking my friend to AA a few years back, he got his initial interviewer asking him when was the last time he remembers loosing consciousness and he replied never. He was told to come back when he is ready to be sincere and we went out. My friend drinks every day since he was 13 years old, he’s 44 now, manages to keep his work and personal life together but he’s drunk every single day without ever crossing the line of crawling alongside a street or throwing up all over himslef. The devastation in his brain must be horrible though, I literally have to arrange a meeting with him the same day we’re supposed to meet because otherwise he forgets. He foes manage to run a succesfull company, drive a new BMW and keep his marriage together somehow - I can’t imagine him shooting heroin every day for 30 years straight and be able to function or be alive for that matter. 

8

It's almost never heroin itself that kills people, dirty needles, impurities, vulnerability and no knowledge of its strength, all of which is due to its legality

Edit. Xposted with John who earns another +1...

Edited August 18, 2018 by dimreepr

[koti]

12 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

There are people who use heroin (under it's more respectable name of diamorphine) regularly for years.

In terms of toxic damage done to the body, alcohol is worse- simply because the doses (ounces rather than milligrams)are so much bigger.

 

Of course there is.
Several countries have relaxed the legislation on drugs- notably Holland and Portugal. There is typically a small increase in the number of users of pot (and a slight drop in alcohol use).
There's a huge saving on police time etc.
The problem isn't people using drugs. There is a problem with people how use them too much, or too often.
But there's a huge problem with people who are injured- not by the drug use, but by the illegality of that use.
The people killed in gang wars over drug territories are killed by the fact that the drugs are illegal.
The people who die of overdoses from drugs that were sold with uncontrolled strength and make-up were killed by the fact that the drugs are illegal.
The people who die from infections from sharing needles are killed by the fact that the drugs are illegal.

We could save most of those people.

Why are we not donig so?

 

I’m looking after data on new users of opiates not new users of pot after relaxing the drug laws. I think we can all agree that a little more pot users and a little less alcohol users is good thing. I also tend to agree with what you wrote above.

 

Quote

Your imagination is irrelevant.

Why don’t you take your own advice, relax your internal drug laws, have a beer or a smoke and stop being such a d***k.

[John Cuthber]

22 minutes ago, koti said:

 

 

Why don’t you take your own advice, relax your internal drug laws, have a beer or a smoke and stop being such a d***k.

If I do so, it will not mean that the universe follows your imagination.

[koti]

46 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:If I do so, it will not mean that the universe follows your imagination.

Thats quite a conclusion you’ve drawn. My imagination of my friend presumably not being able to live through 30 years of shooting heroin every day straight led you to believe that the universe will not follow my imagination? Make that a double vodka shot John, maybe you can relax then.  

[dimreepr]

3 minutes ago, koti said:

Thats quite a conclusion you’ve drawn. My imagination of my friend presumably not being able to live through 30 years of shooting heroin every day straight led you to believe that the universe will not follow my imagination? Make that a double vodka shot John, maybe you can relax then.  

Hello, is this thing working?

[John Cuthber]

3 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Hello, is this thing working?

It seems to have lost the connection somehow.

[CharonY]

3 hours ago, MigL said:

Alcohol may indeed be a dangerous 'drug', John, but it is used differently.
While a small minority would suffer alcohol withdrawl symptoms, the vast majority have a drink with their dinner, or after a work day to 'take the edge off'.
No one I know inhales half a toke ( and tosses the rest of their joint ), or a couple of grains of coke ( and saves the rest of the line for tomorrow ), just to relax.

And just to play devil's advocate, CharonY...

Having expensive stuff makes me feel good.
Hitting people who have wronged me also makes me feel good.
Feeling good is very addictive.
can we then say that theft ( to support my need for expensive stuff ) and violence ( retribution for those who have wronged me ) are medical problems and not criminal problems ?
the only difference is theft and violence hurts specific individuals while drug use hurts society as a whole.

IOW are we just doing some 'creative accounting' with the problems by moving it from one column to another ?

It is not about accounting, but about efficacy. Addiction is a different beast from merely "feel good" as any addiction can tell you. Actual kleptomania does not go away with punishment. Yet therapy can at least assist in controlling impulse disorders. Punishment may make society feel better. In those cases it just does nothing to improve outcome.

While John already clearly expressed it, I just want to reiterate that there is no scientifically consistent classification of hard vs soft drugs. Moreover public perception of harm is quite different to actual biological and medical effects.

 

[koti]

8 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

OK,

Withdrawal from those is bad- but that from heroin- which was widely touted as the most addictive-has been likened to a doas of the flu. (Obviously, people's experiences of both vary). It' s possible, but unlikely that someone will actually die from opiate withdrawal.
https://ndarc.med.unsw.edu.au/blog/yes-people-can-die-opiate-withdrawal

 

This comes from the first paragraph of what you linked:
"It is generally thought that opiate withdrawal is unpleasant but not life-threatening, but death can, and does, occur. The complications of withdrawal are often underestimated and monitored inadequately."
You're contradicting yourself and then...

 

5 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

Your imagination is irrelevant.
 

 

4 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

If I do so, it will not mean that the universe follows your imagination.

 

3 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Hello, is this thing working?

 

3 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

It seems to have lost the connection somehow.

 

How do you draw a conclusion that my imagination is leading me astray in saying that „I cant imagine my friend shoot heroin for 30 years everyday straight and lead a functional life” when what you link to confirms my point of view? Is it maybe something had disconnected on your side and its not the internet connection? 

Edited August 18, 2018 by koti

[John Cuthber]

1 hour ago, koti said:

This comes from the first paragraph of what you linked:
"It is generally thought that opiate withdrawal is unpleasant but not life-threatening, but death can, and does, occur. The complications of withdrawal are often underestimated and monitored inadequately."
You're contradicting yourself and then...

 

 

How do you draw a conclusion that my imagination is leading me astray in saying that „I cant imagine my friend shoot heroin for 30 years everyday straight and lead a functional life” when what you link to confirms my point of view? Is it maybe something had disconnected on your side and its not the internet connection? 

It's a pity you didn't read a little further. The next line says "The opioid withdrawal syndrome is often characterised as a flu-like illness, subjectively severe but objectively mild. "
And it goes on to say "People can, and do, die from opiate withdrawal – and all such deaths are preventable, given appropriate medical management."

Whereas the death rate from alcohol withdrawal isn't zero, even with intervention.

So, the reality is that abrupt alcohol withdrawal is more likely to kill you (with or without  medical assistance) than abrupt opiate withdrawal (with or without medical assistance).

And that's the point I was making.

As for "I cant imagine my friend shoot heroin for 30 years everyday straight and lead a functional life”
Just because you can't imagine it doesn't mean it can't happen.
People do that sort of thing.

Your (lack of) imagination does not change the facts, does it?
I didn't say your imagination was leading you astray, I said that it didn't influence the real world.

People live more or less normal lives while regularly using heroin.

If you can't imagine that, that's your problem.

[koti]

56 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

It's a pity you didn't read a little further. The next line says "The opioid withdrawal syndrome is often characterised as a flu-like illness, subjectively severe but objectively mild. "
And it goes on to say "People can, and do, die from opiate withdrawal – and all such deaths are preventable, given appropriate medical management."

Whereas the death rate from alcohol withdrawal isn't zero, even with intervention.

So, the reality is that abrupt alcohol withdrawal is more likely to kill you (with or without  medical assistance) than abrupt opiate withdrawal (with or without medical assistance).

And that's the point I was making.

As for "I cant imagine my friend shoot heroin for 30 years everyday straight and lead a functional life”
Just because you can't imagine it doesn't mean it can't happen.
People do that sort of thing.

Your (lack of) imagination does not change the facts, does it?
I didn't say your imagination was leading you astray, I said that it didn't influence the real world.

People live more or less normal lives while regularly using heroin.

If you can't imagine that, that's your problem.

That sounds a bit more subtle and a bit less invasive. Thank you, I much more prefer your posts when they're missing the d**k features. 

[John Cuthber]

10 hours ago, koti said:

That sounds a bit more subtle and a bit less invasive. Thank you, I much more prefer your posts when they're missing the d**k features. 

You seem to think I'm a dick the first time I point something out which you don't like , but stop thinking it when I restate the point and demonstrate  that you are mistaken.
Wouldn't it be easier if you just read my posts carefully the first time and saved yourself the trouble of posting (and me the trouble of replying)?

[koti]

37 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

You seem to think I'm a dick the first time I point something out which you don't like , but stop thinking it when I restate the point and demonstrate  that you are mistaken.
Wouldn't it be easier if you just read my posts carefully the first time and saved yourself the trouble of posting (and me the trouble of replying)?

You haven’t pointed out anything, this disagreement does not have an obvious answer. People might live through 30 years of shooting heroin every day but its certainly not obvious like you’re trying to make it. The „being functional” part is yet another level of not obvious yet you choose to stand firm by your single minded view which along with gentle implications that Im irrational by not agreeing with you makes you...annoying to skip on the previous word. I choose to try to de-antagonize by pointing out where I agree with you and point out where you’re making progress on your „annoying” part but I’m beginning to realize its pointless in your case.

It’s time for you now to show data on people who shoot heroin every day for 30 years straight and manage to be functional. Lets see it.

Edited August 19, 2018 by koti