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Itoero

Can you believe in evolution and in god?

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7 minutes ago, mistermack said:

But there were plenty of atheists before Darwin.

But he wasn't one of them.

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2 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

But he wasn't one of them.

My understanding is that he pretty much lost his faith after the death of his daughter

29 minutes ago, Itoero said:

I said in the OP I mean evolution that started at the big bang, not only the biological evolution on this Earth.

 

I can't really see why there would be any conflict there. The evolution of the universe is just physics (and later chemistry) and some of it is just basic stuff like thermodynamics. 

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24 minutes ago, Strange said:

I can't really see why there would be any conflict there. The evolution of the universe is just physics (and later chemistry) and some of it is just basic stuff like thermodynamics. 

The biological evolution on this Earth is part of the evolution of the universe. The evolution of the universe is physics/chemistry/biology.

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1 hour ago, Strange said:

Evolution depends on three things:

  • Variation in a population 
  • Those variations being heritable
  • The variations having a differential effect on survival and reproductive success 

We know (from fairly trivial observation) that all three exist. And we also now know the mechanism. So it would actually take divine intervention to stop evolution happening 

While not wrong this specifically refers one specific mechanism, namely natural selection. While this was probably the first recognized mechanism, it is not the only one. In fact I think looking at the expected outcome makes it easier to argue why evolution is the expected outcome. Specifically when we talk about evolution we mean that the genetic composition of a given population is not static. The reason are those that you mentioned, but can also include stochastic effects. Especially in small population random elimination of individuals from the pool, regardless of their genetic composition (and thus, inheritable aspect of reproductive success) can shift the gene pool significantly. As such there are only few situations where you do not expect evolution to happen (e.g. the population being in a Hardy-Weinberg equlibrium).

 

 

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2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

You keep saying you're not a science denier, but this is a basic biological classification. Study up on hominids if you're interested in learning something. This has NOTHING to do with religion at all, it's not a faith-based belief, it's a system of classification that's based on trustworthy observation derived from countless genetic experiments.

I've probably said it already in this thread, but if you actually study evolution and the theory that explains it, you'll come to realize there's no way to stop the process of evolution from happening. If you think you can, your reality is wrong.

"I said in the OP I mean evolution that started at the big bang, not only the biological evolution on this Earth."

I wasn't talking faith based or God and mentioned neither, PHi.  I stated I do believe in evolution, just that I did not have to believe in BB to believe in evolution, as was inferred in the title.  It appears as if humans are apes, and live in zoos, but this scientific article from the  University of Chicago says we are not apes, that evolution continued, and humans are no longer apes.   https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524141534.htm   Phi, I hope you will stop seeing me in your prejudicial light based on the popular image of a bible believer who believes in a flat earth and creation in Genesis done in 24 hour days, I have met only one bible believer who thinks that combination of things.

  I know very little about time dilation other than time is not the same everywhere.  Genesis nowhere says those first days were 24 hours, only periods of light and darkness.   This link https://www.google.ca/search?q=has+earth's+rotation+sped+up+over+time&oq=has+earth's+rotation+sped+up+over+time&aqs=chrome..69i57.19145j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8  gives a quick glance at how earth's rotation changes in our present day, and while we can easily see where those changes happen because they are measured scientifically we can't know what the rotation was during Genesis because we were not here, and neither is it possible to determine the lengths of those days by science today.  You're as prejudiced towards me, Phi, as some White people are towards Blacks, and for the same reason, stereotyping and ignorance of the person.  It will be hard for you to break your prejudice which colours your interpretation of every word I write,  but I pray you will. 

Edited by coffeesippin
Clarified why I mentioned BB.

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1 hour ago, mistermack said:

There's more to be learned, but no prospect at all of it ever being ditched.

That is only true if one approaches evolutionary theories on a very high level in which details are pretty much not considered. Below that level there have been many aspects that have fallen out of favour over time.

 

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

Yeh, well put. Evolution is now so well understood and verified that it's almost on a par with physics or chemistry.

I would not know what to make out of that comparison. There are many aspects in Chemistry and Physics that are not well understood. Otherwise there would not be ongoing research in those disciplines. The main difference between the disciplines is roughly speaking the complexity of the systems under investigation which lends itself to the need for different methodologies. 

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9 minutes ago, CharonY said:

While not wrong this specifically refers one specific mechanism, namely natural selection. While this was probably the first recognized mechanism, it is not the only one. In fact I think looking at the expected outcome makes it easier to argue why evolution is the expected outcome. Specifically when we talk about evolution we mean that the genetic composition of a given population is not static. The reason are those that you mentioned, but can also include stochastic effects. Especially in small population random elimination of individuals from the pool, regardless of their genetic composition (and thus, inheritable aspect of reproductive success) can shift the gene pool significantly. As such there are only few situations where you do not expect evolution to happen (e.g. the population being in a Hardy-Weinberg equlibrium).

Good point.

In previous versions of this argument I have also included "a source of new variation" as another requirement. 

41 minutes ago, Itoero said:

The biological evolution on this Earth is part of the evolution of the universe. The evolution of the universe is physics/chemistry/biology.

I'm not sure I see much benefit in conflating the two; they happen on such different scales, rely on different mechanisms, with different levels of complexity.

Of course, ultimately everything is just physics. But trying to explain the function of an MPEG player in terms of electron-hole mobility in semiconductors probably isn't useful.

12 minutes ago, coffeesippin said:

It appears as if humans are apes, and live in zoos, but this scientific article from the  University of Chicago says we are not apes, that evolution continued, and humans are no longer apes. 

It doesn't say that, as far as I can see. It uses "ape" as a shorthand for "non-human ape". It says: "Both humans and apes belong to a group of primates known as the Hominoidea."

Hominoidea: "Apes (Hominoidea) are a branch of Old World tailless anthropoid primates native to Africa and Southeast Asia. ... There are two extant branches of the superfamily Hominoidea: the gibbons, or lesser apes; and the hominids, or great apes. ... The family Hominidae (hominids), the great apes, includes three extant species of orangutans and their subspecies, two extant species of gorillas and their subspecies, two extant species of chimpanzees and their subspecies, and one extant species of humans in a single extant subspecies."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape

But whether humans are grouped with apes or not doesn't rally make any difference. As the article points out, we have a common ancestor.

18 minutes ago, coffeesippin said:

I stated I do believe in evolution, just that I did not have to believe in BB to believe in evolution, as was inferred in the title.

I don't think "believe" is really appropriate to either of these. One can accept the scientific evidence or reject it. I suspect that only rejecting it counts as a belief/faith based act.

 

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2 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

You claimed the Bible is 99.9999999999% true... not true in fact the very opposite is true... Again, The BB is not a subject that is taught alone, that would be like someone teaching one verse in your bible and nothing else... 

No, I said YOUR understanding of what the bible is about comprises 99.+those other nines% of what the bible is about, though I should change that to 'what I know about your understanding of what the bible is about."  The King James Bible is 100% true in every word.

  In your experience BB is not taught alone.  Sarah told me she was teaching BB.  I suppose you might want to call her a liar?

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19 hours ago, coffeesippin said:

"I said in the OP I mean evolution that started at the big bang, not only the biological evolution on this Earth."

I wasn't talking faith based or God and mentioned neither, PHi. 

!

Moderator Note

And that's why your post(s) were moved, because the title of the thread does mention god. And why any other posts of the same sort will be split, as they are off-topic.

 
Quote

I stated I do believe in evolution, just that I did not have to believe in BB to believe in evolution, as was inferred in the title. 

!

Moderator Note

No. No, no, no. The title mentions evolution, and god, and whether you can believe in both. It did NOT ask anything about believing in the BB and in evolution.

If you want to talk about this, start a new thread. (I don't think this is a difficult concept to grasp)

 

 

 

!

Moderator Note

I have split many posts to the trash (though it's possible they might be moved to a new thread; we'll see)

The topic of this thread is whether one can believe in cosmological and biological evolution and god. (from subsequent refinements, one might just say can you believe in science and god)

It is NOT the place to discuss whether you believe in any particular scientific theory. The OP didn't ask that, and you have not been invited to opine in that area. It's whether you CAN believe in both. If you don't, that's irrelevant. And I think the question has been answered: yes, you can. But there are limitations on what kind of belief you can have, which you are free to discuss.  

 

Any new OT responses will be hidden.

 

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11 hours ago, Moontanman said:

I don't believe in satan either and please name who in the bible satan killed? God is said to have killed millions, babies, children, men, women... who is really evil in your book of fables? 

Good call, sadly the bible doesn't allow for this but since you have displayed much dishonesty already I see no reason you would break your pattern here. 

http://www.humanreligions.info/gospels.html

I suggest you do so, my quotes are accurate... 

 

Your sad attempt at obfuscation is deceitful, Genesis was not talking about the things you're asserting, in no place did it mention anything but aerobic complex life in the form we see today. To assert anything else is again dishonest... 

You are being dishonest if you think any of these are part of genesis. In fact later in genesis it asserts the earth is a flat disc under a crystal dome surrounded by water with the sun moon and stars being under that dome. 

meaningless drivel, your would have to show they had some actual evidence of being true before that was even meaningful. 

That is a lie, bats are mammals, Kiwis are birds, this has always been the case despite god evidently not knowing it. 

Your attempt at disinformation is sad, none of these things has anything to do with genesis or the earth being created in 6 days. Perhaps monkeys will fly out of my ass your dishonesty is disturbing coming from one who believes in the 9th commandment. 

So god was afraid to tell people that owning people as property was wrong? seems kind of timid for a god who was willing to kill the entire world. Paul wasn't Jesus, never could have met jesus and your assertion is meaningless. jesus believed in demonic possession caused diseases, claimed that what went into your mouth couldn't hurt you but that what came out was dangerous. Jesus cursed a fig tree because it didn't bear fruit out of season. 

So far you have failed miserably to show anything in the bible is true and done nothing but dishonestly dissemble and side step the issues. 

The flood cannot have happened, trees die when submerged for a year, cephalopods cannot survive in water that is not within very close salinity tolerances, neither can echinoderms. There is no mechanism that could allowed so many animals to actually fit into the ark nor get them to or from the middle east. Hell the ark was too small to even hold all the insects which the bible said weren't included which means they would have all died. 

You fail utterly and do nothing but repeat PRATT to try and smoke screen your dishonesty... Smoke and mirrors will not make your assertions true...

There might very well be a god but not god as described in the bible, the bible is a book of fairy tales, morality tales, and parables, not facts... Biblical inerrancy is a false belief, it is demonstrably a false belief, lucky that most reasonable christians know this and understand that the bible is just mythology about their god not the inerrant word of god...  

Oh and BTW, Kiwis are birds, they do lay eggs despite what your goofy links claims... 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi

Bats however are mammals in the same way birds are dinosaurs. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat

 

You know what Moontanman .. Your ignorance of recent science (as much water in the earth as in all the earth's oceans) and historical scripture is forgivable, your ignorance of religous history is forgivable, your inability or unwillingness to read ("Oh and by the way, Kiwis are birds" .. yes, exactly what the link said) is forgivable, your error about the bible saying the earth is flat beneath a crystal dome is forgivable, your unbelief in the Word is forgivable, your rebellion at a just God who drowned an entire world because of the rebellion of that world against God is forgivable, in fact you are entirely forgivable, and your constant accusation that I'm a liar is also forgivable

     Looks like a much longer reply I sent about 5 a.m. this morning has been deleted or suspended.   Too much fact with references in it that contradicted your mutterings I guess.

2 hours ago, swansont said:
!

Moderator Note

And that's why your post(s) were moved, because the title of the thread does mention god. And why any other posts of the same sort will be split, as they are off-topic.

 
!

Moderator Note

No. No, no, no. The title mentions evolution, and god, and whether you can believe in both. It did NOT ask anything about believing in the BB and in evolution.

If you want to talk about this, start a new thread. (I don't think this is a difficult concept to grasp)

 

 

 

!

Moderator Note

I have split many posts to the trash (though it's possible they might be moved to a new thread; we'll see)

The topic of this thread is whether one can believe in cosmological and biological evolution and god. (from subsequent refinements, one might just say can you believe in science and god)

It is NOT the place to discuss whether you believe in any particular scientific theory. The OP didn't ask that, and you have not been invited to opine in that area. It's whether you CAN believe in both. If you don't, that's irrelevant. And I think the question has been answered: yes, you can. But there are limitations on what kind of belief you can have, which you are free to discuss.  

 

Any new OT responses will be hidden.

 

It seems it's my posts with verifiable links only have been removed, while Moontan's accusations of lying and presentation of shallow science remain on.  I guess it's nice to have special friends on a forum, right Moon?  No fear of anyone seeing the real facts and seeing for themselves who's posting the fraudulent stuff, people deciding for themselves who is merely accusing someone of lying and fabrication.    Sad that a forum has to come to that kind of deceit and coverup.    Fishing buddies I suppose, well, all the poison along the Carolina coast will suit your tastes.  Enjoy.  And when Apophis hits, and raises a big personal flood for you maybe you'll have taken a lesson from history and have built an ark, and end up on a mountain.

Edited by coffeesippin
Plain fact of life

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11 minutes ago, coffeesippin said:

You knosw what Moontanman .. Your ignorance of recent science (as much water in the earth as in all the earth's oceans) and historical scripture is forgivable, your ignorance of religous history is forgivable, your inability or unwillingness to read ("Oh and by the way, Kiwis are birds" .. yes, exactly what the link said) is forgivable, your error about the bible saying the earth is flat beneath a crystal dome is forgivable, your unbelief in the Word is forgivable, your rebellion at a just God who drowned an entire world because of the rebellion of that world against God is forgivable, in fact you are entirely forgivable, and your constant accusation that I'm a liar is also forgivable

3
3

It's also ok to forgive yourself; no god/ignorance required...

Edited by dimreepr

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Also .. isn't it prophetic of me to have foreseen my post being deleted, and sending it in a message to Moon.   At least he knows the real facts even if he chooses not to beleive them .. and it's easy for anyone else to see the coverup and prejudice, my post gone, Moon's remaining.   Thanks for the easy obviously seen additional evidence, Swan, of what you really do here.

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5 minutes ago, coffeesippin said:

Also .. isn't it prophetic of me to have foreseen my post being deleted, and sending it in a message to Moon.   At least he knows the real facts even if he chooses not to beleive them .. and it's easy for anyone else to see the coverup and prejudice, my post gone, Moon's remaining.   Thanks for the easy obviously seen additional evidence, Swan, of what you really do here.

2
2

Only in error...

Edited by dimreepr

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5 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Only in error...

I don't understand your meaning, DR.

22 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

It's also ok to forgive yourself; no god/ignorance required...

Thanks DR .. I do have to forgive my anger at Swans abuse of power .. but he at least made it clearly known by doing it .. so I'll rejoice that darkness has come to light.   Hallelujah.  Darkness has come to light!!!

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Just now, coffeesippin said:

I don't understand your meaning, DR.

We don't gang up, we debate...

That's the rules...

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20 minutes ago, coffeesippin said:

Also .. isn't it prophetic of me to have foreseen my post being deleted,

It has probably been moved into the other highjack spin off thread from this one.  Didn't the Holy Spirit tell you that?  I thought it was supposed to be an omniscient god. If that was the case then why would it let you make such an embarrassing error when you are supposed to be a witness for it?

 

Edited by DrP

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42 minutes ago, coffeesippin said:

Also .. isn't it prophetic of me to have foreseen my post being deleted, and sending it in a message to Moon.   At least he knows the real facts even if he chooses not to beleive them .. and it's easy for anyone else to see the coverup and prejudice, my post gone, Moon's remaining.   Thanks for the easy obviously seen additional evidence, Swan, of what you really do here.

!

Moderator Note

Your post wasn't deleted, it was moved. I thought that was explained quite clearly. Should I use smaller words?

Further, Moon's post is in the thread that was moved. So I have no idea what you are going on about, other than this is all still off-topic. Is there a comprehension problem here? Is "do not post in the thread unless you are discussing the topic of the thread" that difficult of a concept?

This goes for everyone, BTW. STOP POSTING UNLESS IT ADDRESSES THE TOPIC OF THE THREAD

 

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As our mod has already mentioned....of course you are able to believe in the theory of evolution and god at the same time. The Catholic church has already sanctioned it. And while they are 100% correct re the theory of the evolution of life, due to the preponderance of irrefutable evidence confirming that, the god bit though, is that old "god of the gaps" adage, installed for no other reason then it is a gap in our scientific knowledge, so therefor take advantage of it.

 

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I posted this earlier in the thread, it might be of interest in case coffeesippin missed it :

On 28/07/2018 at 10:35 PM, Strange said:

There is a website biologos that explains how biological evolution and religious faith are not in conflict.

 

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For Christians it's impossible to acknowledge all scientific evidence concerning biological evolution.

Human 'history' is part of this biological evolution. All Christians believe in miracles that happened in biological evolution,  the miracles go in against scientific evidence.

If someone says he believes in evolution then that doesn't mean he acknowledges all scientific evidence.

Religious faith and bio evolution are not in conflict because religious faith is an evolutionary trait.

Edited by Itoero

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21 hours ago, Strange said:

I posted this earlier in the thread, it might be of interest in case coffeesippin missed it :

 

I don't have to read it to believe it, I've been saying that all along.  But I will try to find time to read it.

49 minutes ago, Itoero said:

For Christians it's impossible to acknowledge all scientific evidence concerning biological evolution.

Human 'history' is part of this biological evolution. All Christians believe in miracles that happened in biological evolution,  the miracles go in against scientific evidence.

If someone says he believes in evolution then that doesn't mean he acknowledges all scientific evidence.

Religious faith and bio evolution are not in conflict because religious faith is an evolutionary trait.

Not all scientists acknowledge all scientific evidence regardless of branch.  There are feverish debates and even hatreds among scientists, the history of science shows that clearly (Hoyle was an example mentioned on the forum in the last day or two or today woe unto me if I ever get it straight) calling other scientists liars and frauds.   

Your first statement is far to broad to have real meaning .. how many Christians do you know personally?   "The projection begins with 2010 statistics when "Christianity was by far the world's largest religion, with an estimated 2.2 billion adherents, nearly a third (31%) of all 6.9 billion people on Earth. Islam was second, with 1.6 billion adherents, or 23% of the global population.”   Furthermore, aren't scientists still looking for the missing link?  http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170517-we-have-still-not-found-the-missing-link-between-us-and-apes   Is it still missing because it never was?

I can't see why biology has anything to do with religious faith.  One is flesh .. the other is spirit.  The mind may be born and evolve and die, but the spirit is eternal.

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1 hour ago, coffeesippin said:

Not all scientists acknowledge all scientific evidence regardless of branch

You do know many scientists are Christian? Many scientists(from different religions) deny bio evolution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceptance_of_evolution_by_religious_groups

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_support_for_evolution

 

1 hour ago, coffeesippin said:

how many Christians do you know personally

What does that matter? All Christians believe in the miracles about Jesus...

 

1 hour ago, coffeesippin said:

"The projection begins with 2010 statistics when "Christianity was by far the world's largest religion, with an estimated 2.2 billion adherents, nearly a third (31%) of all 6.9 billion people on Earth. Islam was second, with 1.6 billion adherents, or 23% of the global population.” 

relevance?

 

1 hour ago, coffeesippin said:

aren't scientists still looking for the missing link

If you understand evolution then you would know there are in theory always 'missing links'. Have a look to this  list, especially 'human evolution'. : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils

 

1 hour ago, coffeesippin said:

I can't see why biology has anything to do with religious faith.

Religious faith arises in your brain.

Edited by Itoero

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23 hours ago, Strange said:

I posted this earlier in the thread, it might be of interest in case coffeesippin missed it :

There is a website biologos that explains how biological evolution and religious faith are not in conflict.

So that's what happens to religious conservatives if you feed them science for long enough with a positive response to the treatment. They become half reasonable but still believe in Santa Claus. Cute.

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12 hours ago, Itoero said:

For Christians it's impossible to acknowledge all scientific evidence concerning biological evolution.

Human 'history' is part of this biological evolution. All Christians believe in miracles that happened in biological evolution,  the miracles go in against scientific evidence.

I feel the real Scotsman fallacy coming... Who defines who is Christian? You? Or do Christians define themselves as Christian?

Sorry, But I hate these kind of sweeping statements where you state what others should believe according the labels you use. 

10 hours ago, Itoero said:

Many scientists(from different religions) deny bio evolution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceptance_of_evolution_by_religious_groups

Fascinating. The article is amongst others about Christians who accept evolution. 

10 hours ago, Itoero said:

All Christians believe in the miracles about Jesus...

Another one. If you had written 'most' I would have given you the benefit of the doubt, but you wrote 'all'. I know several people who also take Jesus' miracles symbolically.

10 hours ago, Itoero said:

Religious faith arises in your brain.

Yes, probably. Surely evolution made us prone to religious ideas. But religious ideas of individuals are mainly socially learned. So they may arise in the brain, but not necessarily caused by it.

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8 hours ago, Eise said:

feel the real Scotsman fallacy coming... Who defines who is Christian? You? Or do Christians define themselves as Christian?

Sorry, But I hate these kind of sweeping statements where you state what others should believe according the labels you use. 

People that believe in the Christian god and Jesus+miracles are defined as Christian. All Christians believe in miracles concerning God/Jesus which go in against bio evolution.

I'm not stating what others should believe. Stop misinterprating me, react to what I actually say or don't react at  all.

8 hours ago, Eise said:

Fascinating. The article is amongst others about Christians who accept evolution. 

Because people accept evolution that doesn't mean they accept all scientific evidence concerning evolution.

 

It's funny how many people(like you) can't deal with  religion scientifically...your emotions take the upper hand.

Many forummembers must know I'm correct.

Edited by Itoero

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