If civilization falls, will people go back to their natural habitat?

[Unitive_Mystic]

4 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Mortality rates for different groups in the UK are fairly consistent across all groups. So we at least know they live as long as is to be expected for humans in the UK. 

 

Vitamin D deficiency isn't a mortal illness. But, it does weaken immune system and energy amount. So my premise is that, in this modern civilization, vitamin D deficiency doesn't have a terrible effect on us because we have antibiotics, medicine, hospitals, and alot of health related support.

This is why I'm bringing up the idea of civilization collapse. Because we won't have the modern conveniences so protect us from the bad effects of vitamin D deficiency.

Or maybe vitamin D deficiency really does harm people of this modern world and I just don't know. Still doesn't disprove my point either way.

[Ten oz]

32 minutes ago, Unitive_Mystic said:

Vitamin D deficiency isn't a mortal illness. But, it does weaken immune system and energy amount. So my premise is that, in this modern civilization, vitamin D deficiency doesn't have a terrible effect on us because we have antibiotics, medicine, hospitals, and alot of health related support.

This is why I'm bringing up the idea of civilization collapse. Because we won't have the modern conveniences so protect us from the bad effects of vitamin D deficiency.

Or maybe vitamin D deficiency really does harm people of this modern world and I just don't know. Still doesn't disprove my point either way.

Yes, but you continue to ignore that fact that vitiman D deficiency has never stopped any group or groups of humans from living someplace. There have been people of color in northern areas for a few hundred years now. Slaves in the U.S. use to flee North to settlements in Canada for example. Whatever "modern" comforts you think people today have certainly weren't available to runaway slaves. The vitiman D issue simply doesn't matter are the scale required to force a migration. 

Quote

 

When Great Britain abolished slavery in its empire in 1834, thus making all its possessions free territory, thousands of African Americans escaped to the refuge of Canada. The migration was further spurred in 1850 with the passage of the Fugitive Slave Act that permitted the capture and return of escaped slaves anywhere in the U.S.—thus the North was no longer a safe haven for escaped slaves. Up to thirty thousand slaves fled to Canada and, as in the northern U.S., many free blacks joined together to provide aid and advice. Henry Bibb and Josiah Henson, themselves escaped slaves (whose narratives are excerpted in this Toolbox), formed the Refugees' Home Colony in Canada in 1851, and Bibb established the first black newspaper in Canada, the Voice of the Fugitive. In an anti-slavery meeting (ca. 1850), Bibb delivered a welcome statement to fugitive slaves arriving in Canada. Interwoven in his brief statement are the themes of self-determination, self-respect, and, at last, self-ownership. 

Fugitive settlements in Canada grew steadily, primarily in western Ontario. In 1855 the white abolitionist Benjamin Drew travelled through "Canada West" to interview fugitive slaves who had settled there, publishing their narratives in A North-Side View of Slavery: The Refugee (the narratives of John Little and his wife are included in Theme I: ENSLAVEMENT: Runaways).

http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/pds/maai/community/text8/text8read.htm

 

 

[Unitive_Mystic]

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

Yes, but you continue to ignore that fact that vitiman D deficiency has never stopped any group or groups of humans from living someplace. There have been people of color in northern areas for a few hundred years now. Slaves in the U.S. use to flee North to settlements in Canada for example. Whatever "modern" comforts you think people today have certainly weren't available to runaway slaves. The vitiman D issue simply doesn't matter are the scale required to force a migration. 

 

Slaves only lived to be in their 20s north and south.

And before the north abolished slavery, the northern slaves were seen to be in worst condition than southern slaves.

[Sensei]

On 22.06.2018 at 11:43 PM, Unitive_Mystic said:

"People living in northern latitudes often don’t get enough UV to synthesize vitamin D in their skin so natural selection has favored two genetic solutions to that problem—evolving pale skin that absorbs UV more efficiently or favoring lactose tolerance to be able to digest the sugars and vitamin D naturally found in milk."

Domestication of cattle happened just relatively recently, approximately 10,500 years ago. There was not enough time for natural selection. Also, intolerance does not kill, so even if tolerance would be developed in some people, people with intolerance would still survive, still spreading their genes, and mixing with people with tolerance (disallowing tolerance to lactose in genes to prevail, and becoming dominant in population).

There is also very easy way to turn milk to become drinkable by people with intolerance - simply make kefir. Put spoon of old kefir to container with fresh milk and wait couple hours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kefir

"As a result of the fermentation, very little lactose remains in kefir. People with lactose intolerance are able to tolerate kefir, provided the number of live bacteria present in this beverage consumed is high enough (i.e., fermentation has proceeded for adequate time). It has also been shown that fermented milk products have a slower transit time than milk, which may further improve lactose digestion.[11]"

 

Edited June 25, 2018 by Sensei

[Unitive_Mystic]

24 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Domestication of cattle happened just relatively recently, approximately 10,500 years ago. There was not enough time for natural selection. Also, intolerance does not kill, so even if tolerance would be developed in some people, people with intolerance would still survive, still spreading their genes, and mixing with people with tolerance (disallowing tolerance to lactose in genes to prevail, and becoming dominant in population).

There is also very easy way to turn milk to become drinkable by people with intolerance - simply make kefir. Put spoon of old kefir to container with fresh milk and wait couple hours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kefir

"As a result of the fermentation, very little lactose remains in kefir. People with lactose intolerance are able to tolerate kefir, provided the number of live bacteria present in this beverage consumed is high enough (i.e., fermentation has proceeded for adequate time). It has also been shown that fermented milk products have a slower transit time than milk, which may further improve lactose digestion.[11]"

 

Correct.

[CharonY]

6 hours ago, StringJunky said:

What about overall health. No one said it's a mortal illness.

Morbidity is dependent on many factors and as such is rather difficult to disentangle. However, if a singular factor was a driving force as proposed in this thread, it would be much easier to identify. Based on the 2004 survey In the UK there are marked differences between the health of Black Caribbeans and Black Africans, indicating that skin colour does not seem to be a driving force.

Also, while in the US African American had lower levels of vitamin D, the usual risks found in white population (e.g. higher osteoporosis rates) was not found to be relevant on African American populations. The reason is not quite known and some speculate that there may be adaptation to the lower vitamin D levels. Whatever the case may be, there is no strong evidence of selective pressure based vitamin D levels. 

[Unitive_Mystic]

2 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Yes, but you continue to ignore that fact that vitiman D deficiency has never stopped any group or groups of humans from living someplace. There have been people of color in northern areas for a few hundred years now. Slaves in the U.S. use to flee North to settlements in Canada for example. Whatever "modern" comforts you think people today have certainly weren't available to runaway slaves. The vitiman D issue simply doesn't matter are the scale required to force a migration. 

 

Also, when slaves went up north, alot of them got rickets and it probably would have been best for them to move down south. 

[StringJunky]

13 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Morbidity is dependent on many factors and as such is rather difficult to disentangle. However, if a singular factor was a driving force as proposed in this thread, it would be much easier to identify. Based on the 2004 survey In the UK there are marked differences between the health of Black Caribbeans and Black Africans, indicating that skin colour does not seem to be a driving force.

Also, while in the US African American had lower levels of vitamin D, the usual risks found in white population (e.g. higher osteoporosis rates) was not found to be relevant on African American populations. The reason is not quite known and some speculate that there may be adaptation to the lower vitamin D levels. Whatever the case may be, there is no strong evidence of selective pressure based vitamin D levels. 

OK.

[Ken Fabian]

Plenty of reasons given to think this kind of preferential migration will not happen. I haven't seen any arguments that change my view that it would not.

[Unitive_Mystic]

1 hour ago, Ken Fabian said:

Plenty of reasons given to think this kind of preferential migration will not happen. I haven't seen any arguments that change my view that it would not.

So if it does not happen, do you think it would be better for the individual to do so, if they had opportunities?

[Sensei]

Migration will be caused by overpopulation plus global warming. Too hot regions of planet for agricultural production in the future, will cause exodus from Africa to colder regions of the planet.

Eventual migration from North America can be caused by eruption of Yellowstone Caldera.

 

Edited June 26, 2018 by Sensei

[Ken Fabian]

2 hours ago, Unitive_Mystic said:

So if it does not happen, do you think it would be better for the individual to do so, if they had opportunities?

If I were one of them I wouldn't migrate for that reason, even knowing my risk of skin cancers to be greater than people with a similar skin type to mine living in other places - I'd be too concerned with staying alive where I am. Sunburn risks might rate as a reason to get kids to wear hats but not for the arduous task of migrating great distances on foot or in bark canoes.

[Unitive_Mystic]

7 hours ago, Ken Fabian said:

If I were one of them I wouldn't migrate for that reason, even knowing my risk of skin cancers to be greater than people with a similar skin type to mine living in other places - I'd be too concerned with staying alive where I am. Sunburn risks might rate as a reason to get kids to wear hats but not for the arduous task of migrating great distances on foot or in bark canoes.

What about dark skin individuals to migrate south, the effects for them living in the north are much more worse. Vitamin D deficiency is important for physical and cognitive ability, which will be way more important to anyone in a crisis. Also dark skinned people are more prone to getting rickets in the north. A simple virus that causes you fatigue could actually kill you because there is no medicine(unless you find it) and you wouldn't have enough energy for your body to find food, get supplies, farm, and hunt to its best ability.

So if a dark skinned individuals had an opportunity to relocate in a crisis. Should they?

[dimreepr]

3 minutes ago, Unitive_Mystic said:

What about dark skin individuals to migrate south, the effects for them living in the north are much more worse. Vitamin D deficiency is important for physical and cognitive ability, which will be way more important to anyone in a crisis.

 

People in an actual crisis don't stand in line for vitamin pills, it's absurd to think people will migrate if they don't absolutely have too, and I don't mean because they lack a convenient drug store. 

[Unitive_Mystic]

22 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

People in an actual crisis don't stand in line for vitamin pills, it's absurd to think people will migrate if they don't absolutely have too, and I don't mean because they lack a convenient drug store. 

What I mean is that they won't have vitamin D pills. And not having them could lead to serious consequences. Such as the lack of ability to fight off viruses and lack in stamina. In this modern civilization vitamin D deficiency doesn't hinder our survival as much as it would in a crisis.

[dimreepr]

4 minutes ago, Unitive_Mystic said:

What I mean is that they won't have vitamin D pills. And not having them could lead to serious consequences. Such as the lack of ability to fight off viruses and lack in stamina. In this modern civilization vitamin D deficiency doesn't hinder our survival as much as it would in a crisis.

What sort of bull shit is this? Do you imagine a failed civilisation is like a soft brexit? 

[Unitive_Mystic]

5 hours ago, dimreepr said:

What sort of bull shit is this? Do you imagine a failed civilisation is like a soft brexit? 

Giant meteor or ww3. Anything to set back the technological advancement.

[Ken Fabian]

Unitive mystic, either way these are not serious problems that I think would lead to migrations - more akin to the health risks populations would face regardless of location. I think rereading my posts will tell you  why I think that - and the reasons others give support that conclusion also. Unless you have something new to add I'll leave it at that.

[Unitive_Mystic]

16 hours ago, Ken Fabian said:

Unitive mystic, either way these are not serious problems that I think would lead to migrations - more akin to the health risks populations would face regardless of location. I think rereading my posts will tell you  why I think that - and the reasons others give support that conclusion also. Unless you have something new to add I'll leave it at that.

Not a forced migration, of course. Let's say we had a warning of a crisis that would lead humanity back to close to the stone age. Like a giant meteor or ww3. Would you then, recommend people to migrate if they had opportunities. And considering all the health benefits of doing so.

[Janus]

1 hour ago, Unitive_Mystic said:

Not a forced migration, of course. Let's say we had a warning of a crisis that would lead humanity back to close to the stone age. Like a giant meteor or ww3. Would you then, recommend people to migrate if they had opportunities. And considering all the health benefits of doing so.

In either of these cases, even with warning, people would be more concerned with surviving the immediate after effects of these events, and if any migration were to occur it would be to those regions where these after effects would be minimal. Either of these events are going to reshape the Earth in terms what regions will be more livable than others, and if you can figure out before hand where they will be, everyone would try to get to those places if they could.  Short time survival will outweigh any other consideration.

[Ten oz]

On 6/25/2018 at 7:46 AM, Unitive_Mystic said:

I am searching for a premise to a situation of civilization collapse. Where would humans have the most garaunteed survival? Together or apart? It doesn't matter either way

Seems to me like it does matter to you. This thread has become lengthy, several members have responded , yet you continue against the grain pushing a singular idea no one here has agreed with. You are playing very loose history and don't seem to have a firm understanding of evolution and the various conditions that led to change. If you could provide a single example in all of history of people relocating south do to health concerns related to vitamin D it would really go a long way to supporting your idea. As of yet no data has been provided illustrating the obstacles to survival you are insisting upon. I also still don't understand the imaginary total collapse of society which would include the loss of all knowledge and language (if language was still around why couldn't people read books to re-obtain the knowledge) yet somehow still would leave humans with so few concerns Vitamin D would be a priority 

On 6/25/2018 at 5:40 PM, Unitive_Mystic said:

Slaves only lived to be in their 20s north and south.

And before the north abolished slavery, the northern slaves were seen to be in worst condition than southern slaves.

Which is long enough to reproduce and wouldn't lead to a reduction in gene diversity. 

[Unitive_Mystic]

5 hours ago, Janus said:

In either of these cases, even with warning, people would be more concerned with surviving the immediate after effects of these events, and if any migration were to occur it would be to those regions where these after effects would be minimal. Either of these events are going to reshape the Earth in terms what regions will be more livable than others, and if you can figure out before hand where they will be, everyone would try to get to those places if they could.  Short time survival will outweigh any other consideration.

What about those peppers that put alot of money and time into preparing for these events. Some of them actually do migrate to the enviroment they are adapted to so that they can live as naturally as possible. Don't you think these people might have the right idea? Even if it's not completely necessary, they still are smart by thinking about the best way to live in a crisis possible (i have a lot of "prepper" friends so that is why I bring up this subject) 

[Unitive_Mystic]

21 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Seems to me like it does matter to you. This thread has become lengthy, several members have responded , yet you continue against the grain pushing a singular idea no one here has agreed with. You are playing very loose history and don't seem to have a firm understanding of evolution and the various conditions that led to change. If you could provide a single example in all of history of people relocating south do to health concerns related to vitamin D it would really go a long way to supporting your idea. As of yet no data has been provided illustrating the obstacles to survival you are insisting upon. I also still don't understand the imaginary total collapse of society which would include the loss of all knowledge and language (if language was still around why couldn't people read books to re-obtain the knowledge) yet somehow still would leave humans with so few concerns Vitamin D would be a priority 

Which is long enough to reproduce and wouldn't lead to a reduction in gene diversity. 

I know this is lengthy and the discussion is long, that doesn't answer my question.

I heard of some instances where some northern slaves were sent to the south treatment for the rickets disease and sent back up north once cured. I'm still doing research however.

When you realize its going to take you over 5 days to get over a sickness and you are to weak to farm, hunt, or run away from possible threats. Also

Vitamin D is necessary to activate the immune system's T-cells, which identify and attack bad pathogens circulating throughout the body.

 so you will also have a much more harder time fighting off infection as well. Or when you know that you are at a higher risk for cancer and other diseases. On top of all that, according to this https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4103214/ Vitamin D deficiency is likely linked to premature death, until then you will realize that vitamin D deficiency would be a priority and should not be looked at in an apathetic perspective. Vitamin D deficiency might not be your number 1 concern, but it can make your number 1 concern even more concerning. That sounds like a good enough reason to migrate. Regardless whether if they do or not, the evidence suggest it would be better if they did.

So many users on here have responded, but I have yet to find a good reason why people shouldn't migrate for a more garaunteed survival in a crisis.

Edited June 28, 2018 by Unitive_Mystic

[Sensei]

On 27.06.2018 at 11:45 PM, Unitive_Mystic said:

What about those peppers that put alot of money and time into preparing for these events. Some of them actually do migrate to the enviroment they are adapted to so that they can live as naturally as possible. Don't you think these people might have the right idea? Even if it's not completely necessary, they still are smart by thinking about the best way to live in a crisis possible (i have a lot of "prepper" friends so that is why I bring up this subject) 

As I said earlier, after hypothetical collapse of civilization, the most valuable thing will be knowledge. If they have just gigantic pantry, but have no duplicate of wikipedia (also in printed version the most important things like physics, chemistry, biology, etc.), they're not really prepared..

 

[Sensei]

On 28.06.2018 at 4:43 PM, Unitive_Mystic said:

Vitamin D is necessary to activate the immune system's T-cells, which identify and attack bad pathogens circulating throughout the body.

[...]

So many users on here have responded, but I have yet to find a good reason why people shouldn't migrate for a more garaunteed survival in a crisis.

As I said earlier, everybody can make kefir, in just few hours from milk, and have their vitamin D nutrient, even if they're lactose intolerant.. They just have to have knowledge that fermented milk has no lactose (or tiny amount of lactose) (and knowledge what is lactose.. and what is lactose intolerance at all..)... It's much easier than migrate back to Africa, or so, don't you think so.. ?

This is a very similar case as in the case of sailors, and a deficiency of vitamin C causing scurvy. After they realized that citruses are healing them, they spread plant on the entire globe and used it. There was just needed knowledge "do you have scurvy? eat citrus"..

A bit of history: "James Lind (...) he developed the theory that citrus fruits cured scurvy. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Lind

 

Edited June 30, 2018 by Sensei