Sci101 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 (edited) Referring to following video, it seems that for Balmer Series there are many elements dropping to n = 2 orbit, which release blue color wavelength. When blue wavelength is scattering, it requires electrons to interact with 2nd orbits to absorb and radiate energy (blue color wavelength). That make Ocean looking blue from space. Furthermore, for following orbits, they release infrared wavelength. Paschen Series (3rd Orbit) - Infrared wavelength Brackett Series (4th Orbit) - Infrared wavelength Pfund Series (5th Orbit) - Infrared wavelength It seems that color / wavelength are fixed based on absorb and radiate energy levels. so why apple is red? which orbit levels are related to absorb and radiate energy (red color wavelength)? is the distance between orbit levels fixed within N2 (Blue) and O2 (Yellow or Orange) structure? Furthermore, when red color wavelength do not change any orbit levels within N2 or O2 atom, does red color wavelength just pass through atom without any interaction with atom's electrons? Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks in advance for any suggestions Edited June 7, 2018 by Sci101 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 There is very little monatomic hydrogen in the ocean, and color in this case is not generated by de-excitation, so looking at the Balmer series is not the right approach. You have to look at the water molecule's absorption characteristics, which are much more complicated, owing to the many transitions you can get in molecules. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Water_infrared_absorption_coefficient_large.gif As you can see, liquid water absorbs red more strongly than blue. So white light will be preferentially absorbed in the red end of the spectrum, leaving water looking blue. Things in the water can also absorb light, changing the color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrP Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 I think it also has something to do with solvated electrons in seawater. They make the water blue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci101 Posted June 8, 2018 Author Share Posted June 8, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, swansont said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Water_infrared_absorption_coefficient_large.gif As you can see, liquid water absorbs red more strongly than blue. So white light will be preferentially absorbed in the red end of the spectrum, leaving water looking blue. Things in the water can also absorb light, changing the color. Referring to your linked image, wavelength shows up to 100 um, which is outside the visible light. If water absorb red, then water must emit red instead of blue based on changing energy levels. Do you have any reference source to show water absorbing red more than blue? Furthermore, x-axis is for wavelength. I would like to know on what object is measured on the y-axis of the chart, Do you have any suggestions? Thanks, to everyone very much for any suggestions (^v^) Edited June 8, 2018 by Sci101 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 5 minutes ago, Sci101 said: Referring to your linked image, wavelength shows up to 100 um, which is outside the visible light. If water absorb red, then water must emit red instead of blue based on changing energy levels. Do you have any reference source to show water absorbing red more than blue? Do you have any suggestions? Thanks, to everyone very much for any suggestions (^v^) Does this help? https://www.dartmouth.edu/~etrnsfer/water.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci101 Posted June 8, 2018 Author Share Posted June 8, 2018 (edited) Leaf is green, green energy wavelength with white light is absorbed by any leaf's element, which change electrons into higher energy levels and then electrons drop back to lower energy levels and emit green wavelength, so we see Green Leaf. would it be correct process to see color ? Do you have any suggestions? Thanks, to everyone very much for any suggestions (^v^) Edited June 8, 2018 by Sci101 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 9 hours ago, Sci101 said: Referring to your linked image, wavelength shows up to 100 um, which is outside the visible light. If water absorb red, then water must emit red instead of blue based on changing energy levels. Do you have any reference source to show water absorbing red more than blue? Furthermore, x-axis is for wavelength. I would like to know on what object is measured on the y-axis of the chart, Do you have any suggestions? Thanks, to everyone very much for any suggestions (^v^) The visible end of the spectrum is on the left, with wavelengths below 1 micron, but you can see the trend starts in the NIR. The y axis is the absorption coefficient (m^-1) In molecules it is not unusual for there to be non-radiative relaxation, but also, emission would be in a pattern covering pretty much the entire spherical solid angle (though not the same probability for all angles). Red light absorbed from above can be re-emitted to the side and therefore lost from view. The amount of reflected light you would see would be deficient in the red part of the spectrum, as opposed to the blue. 8 hours ago, Sci101 said: Leaf is green, green energy wavelength with white light is absorbed by any leaf's element, which change electrons into higher energy levels and then electrons drop back to lower energy levels and emit green wavelength, so we see Green Leaf. would it be correct process to see color ? Do you have any suggestions? Thanks, to everyone very much for any suggestions (^v^) Actually chlorophyll absorbs more strongly in the red and blue, which is why we see green. http://www.austincc.edu/biocr/1406/labm/ex7/prelab_7_4.htm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci101 Posted June 8, 2018 Author Share Posted June 8, 2018 2 hours ago, swansont said: Actually chlorophyll absorbs more strongly in the red and blue, which is why we see green. When chlorophyll absorbs red and blue, the electrons along the orbits must absorbed exact red and blue wavelength energy and jump up to another orbits, that is called absorption. However, the electrons on upper orbits do not go up forever and would drop down to original orbits and emit red and blue, I would like to know on why leaf is green instead of red and blue, if you mention that chlorophyll absorbs more strongly in the red and blue. Do you have any suggestions? Thanks, to everyone very much for any suggestions (^v^) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 3 minutes ago, Sci101 said: When chlorophyll absorbs red and blue, the electrons along the orbits must absorbed exact red and blue wavelength energy and jump up to another orbits, that is called absorption. However, the electrons on upper orbits do not go up forever and would drop down to original orbits and emit red and blue, I would like to know on why leaf is green instead of red and blue, if you mention that chlorophyll absorbs more strongly in the red and blue. Do you have any suggestions? Thanks, to everyone very much for any suggestions (^v^) You are still focussing on the behaviour of single atoms being excited by a photon. There are other mechanisms. The energy of the photon is enough to cause the chlorophyll molecule to lose an electron - it is this free electron that starts the chain of reactions that make up photosynthesis. The chlorophyll molecule eventually gets its electron back from another source (when a water molecule is split by another molecule). The chlorophyll molecule doesn't release a photon when it gets its electron back and so there is a net absorption of red/violet photons. More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthesis#Light-dependent_reactions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Sci101 said: When chlorophyll absorbs red and blue, the electrons along the orbits must absorbed exact red and blue wavelength energy and jump up to another orbits, that is called absorption. In a molecule there are many, many possible transitions. They overlap, since they are not infinitely narrow. 1 hour ago, Sci101 said: However, the electrons on upper orbits do not go up forever and would drop down to original orbits and emit red and blue, I would like to know on why leaf is green instead of red and blue, if you mention that chlorophyll absorbs more strongly in the red and blue. The molecule can lose energy in ways other than releasing a photon (e.g. it can heat up, i.e. create phonons), so to say it drops down to the original orbit is wrong. Even when a photon is released, the odds of it going toward you is small. You aren't going to see the red or blue photon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci101 Posted June 8, 2018 Author Share Posted June 8, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Strange said: You are still focussing on the behaviour of single atoms being excited by a photon. There are other mechanisms. The energy of the photon is enough to cause the chlorophyll molecule to lose an electron - it is this free electron that starts the chain of reactions that make up photosynthesis. The chlorophyll molecule eventually gets its electron back from another source (when a water molecule is split by another molecule). The chlorophyll molecule doesn't release a photon when it gets its electron back and so there is a net absorption of red/violet photons. More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthesis#Light-dependent_reactions " In the light-dependent reactions, one molecule of the pigment chlorophyll absorbs one photon and loses one electron." Leaf is GREEN (that is FACT), electron must drop from upper orbit to lower orbit in order to emit GREEN wavelength photon (energy between different orbit's levels = GREEN wavelength energy / photon), that is why we see that leaf is GREEN. Since the distance between orbits is fixed (let assume), Leaf - element's orbit structure cannot absorb BLUE wavelength photon, because the energy between orbit's levels are different. How can chlorophyll absorb BLUE / RED wavelength photon from this viewpoint? Do BLUE / RED wavelength photon just pass through Leaf without any interaction with any electron within orbit from leaf element? Do you have any suggestions? Thanks, to everyone very much for any suggestions (^v^) Edited June 8, 2018 by Sci101 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 2 hours ago, Sci101 said: Do you have any suggestions? Stop ignoring explanations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 12 minutes ago, Strange said: Stop ignoring explanations. He's got his own theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci101 Posted June 8, 2018 Author Share Posted June 8, 2018 5 hours ago, Strange said: Stop ignoring explanations. Quote For example, in green plants, the action spectrum resembles the absorption spectrum for chlorophylls and carotenoids with absorption peaks in violet-blue and red light. In red algae, the action spectrum is blue-green light, which allows these algae to use the blue end of the spectrum to grow in the deeper waters that filter out the longer wavelengths (red light) used by above ground green plants. The non-absorbed part of the light spectrum is what gives photosynthetic organisms their color (e.g., green plants, red algae, purple bacteria) and is the least effective for photosynthesis in the respective organisms. I would like to understand on how each step works, "in red algae, the action spectrum is blue-green light" and in ground green plants, the action spectrum is red light. When Light pass from sky to ocean, Ground green plants absorb red light to grow (let assume somehow red light can be absorbed, that is not the main discussed issue), how green plants handle blue light in atom levels? why is leaf GREEN, not BLUE? where do BLUE light go? Do you have any suggestions? Thanks, to everyone very much for any suggestions (^v^) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 18 hours ago, Sci101 said: " In the light-dependent reactions, one molecule of the pigment chlorophyll absorbs one photon and loses one electron." You should give a link when you quote other sites. Quote Leaf is GREEN (that is FACT), electron must drop from upper orbit to lower orbit in order to emit GREEN wavelength photon (energy between different orbit's levels = GREEN wavelength energy / photon), that is why we see that leaf is GREEN. This will continue to be wrong, no matter how many times you repeat it. When a molecule absorbs a photon, it usually emits it in some other direction. In order for you to see it, it has to be emitted toward your eye,. The chance of doing this are small. The chance of reflected light getting into your eye is much larger. There is more green reflected light than red or blue, because red and blue get absorbed. The leaf is not green because of photons it emits. It is green because of the photons it reflects. There are a few examples of objects having a color because of emitted light ("neon" lights for example, or some LEDs. Lasers. Planetary nebulae). But the vast majority of things have a color because of reflection. Quote Since the distance between orbits is fixed (let assume), Leaf - element's orbit structure cannot absorb BLUE wavelength photon, because the energy between orbit's levels are different. How can chlorophyll absorb BLUE / RED wavelength photon from this viewpoint? Do BLUE / RED wavelength photon just pass through Leaf without any interaction with any electron within orbit from leaf element? Have you tried to look through a leaf? What color is the light that gets through? It's an experiment you can do. You need a leaf, a flashlight, a white piece of paper, and a darkened room. Quote Do BLUE / RED wavelength photon just pass through Leaf without any interaction with any electron within orbit from leaf element? This has been answered. The light tends to get absorbed. The Bohr model, ultimately, is wrong, and is far too simple to be relied upon for discussions of complex molecules and atoms in lattices. There are transitions that do not involve an electron changing its principle quantum number (n), and there are ways of an atom losing (some of) its excitation energy that do not involve emitting a photon, e.g. collisions, or being bound to other atoms/molecules, you can create vibrations. The de-excitation can also be (or include) a cascade of lower-energy transitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci101 Posted June 9, 2018 Author Share Posted June 9, 2018 (edited) Referring to following video, I would like to know on why leaf only bounce off GREEN light and not other colors on atom levels. Do you have any suggestions? Thanks, to everyone very much for any suggestions (^v^) Edited June 9, 2018 by Sci101 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 10 minutes ago, Sci101 said: Referring to following video, I would like to know on why leaf only bounce off GREEN light and not other colors on atom levels. The "bounce" in the video is absorption by a virtual state. The emission follows certain rules (same energy, follows Snell's law, which is conservation of momentum. No energy or momentum imparted to the atom.) The blue and red absorptions in a leaf are in real states. The photons do not "bounce" — they do not follow the law of reflection, because energy and momentum must be transferred to the atom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci101 Posted June 9, 2018 Author Share Posted June 9, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, swansont said: The "bounce" in the video is absorption by a virtual state. The emission follows certain rules (same energy, follows Snell's law, which is conservation of momentum. No energy or momentum imparted to the atom.) The blue and red absorptions in a leaf are in real states. The photons do not "bounce" — they do not follow the law of reflection, because energy and momentum must be transferred to the atom. Referring to following video, your mentioned Snell's law (for different media) not applied on why leaf is GREEN, Sunlight shines on leaf through air, and we see GREEN leaf through air (same media here). Since you agreed that photons do not "bounce", which must be transferred to the leaf's atom. Why do Leaf only emission GREEN light instead of other colors? if you do not agree on the Bohr model. Do you have any suggestions? Thanks, to everyone very much for any suggestions (^v^) Edited June 9, 2018 by Sci101 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 49 minutes ago, Sci101 said: Referring to following video, your mentioned Snell's law (for different media) not applied on why leaf is GREEN, No, you should not be looking at the law for different media. In the same medium (air), the reflection angle is the same as the incident angle. 49 minutes ago, Sci101 said: Sunlight shines on leaf through air, and we see GREEN leaf through air (same media here). Since you agreed that photons do not "bounce", which must be transferred to the leaf's atom. You see the green because the red and blue are not reflecting. Those colors are absorbed. They do not bounce. 49 minutes ago, Sci101 said: Why do Leaf only emission GREEN light instead of other colors? if you do not agree on the Bohr model. The light you see is not emitted light. It is reflected light. 49 minutes ago, Sci101 said: Do you have any suggestions? Read my responses, and stop trying to force your misconceptions into the answer. The Bohr model is only a small conceptual part of the explanation - that some light is absorbed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci101 Posted June 9, 2018 Author Share Posted June 9, 2018 (edited) 48 minutes ago, swansont said: No, you should not be looking at the law for different media. In the same medium (air), the reflection angle is the same as the incident angle. You see the green because the red and blue are not reflecting. Those colors are absorbed. They do not bounce. The light you see is not emitted light. It is reflected light. Read my responses, and stop trying to force your misconceptions into the answer. The Bohr model is only a small conceptual part of the explanation - that some light is absorbed. There is a missing explanation area, what cause red and blue colors to be absorbed, and not GREEN in atomic levels. I would like to know on how thing works. Do you have any suggestions? Thanks, to everyone very much for any suggestions (^v^) Edited June 9, 2018 by Sci101 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiot Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 To get back on topic an leave the leaves alone. Quote What elements make Ocean Blue from Space? The blue colour is caused by scattering from water (note not elements) that is deeper than 50 metres. Here are some facts. As sunlight penetrates seawater, By 1 metre depth most of the red is lost to absorbtion by the water. By 10 metres depth all the red and most of the yellow and about 50% of the green is lost. By 100 metres depth all the red yeloow and 95% of the green is lost, leaving only blue light. As any light penetrates water it is scattered. The only light going back upwards (by scattering) from the deep is blue light so that is what emerges and is seen form space. There are exceptions. The resence of phytoplankton scatters some green light upwards Some Algae scatter red light upwards giving the famous colour blooms. But remembering that light travelling upwards is subject to the same absorbtion regime, the red and green light only reappears if the water is shallow enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 25 minutes ago, Sci101 said: There is a missing explanation area, what cause red and blue colors to be absorbed, and not GREEN in atomic levels. I would like to know on how thing works. Do you have any suggestions? Thanks, to everyone very much for any suggestions (^v^) It's because of the energy levels of chlorophyll. Here's a diagram http://happy-firewalker.blogspot.com/2015/03/where-does-protein-come-from-photons.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 Occasionally, the energy absorbed by chlorophyll is re-emitted as red light. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorophyll_fluorescence Obviously, in a leaf the whole point is that the energy goes into converting carbon dioxide and water into sugars and oxygen. So leaves don't fluoresce well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci101 Posted June 9, 2018 Author Share Posted June 9, 2018 (edited) There is exactly back to original question again, it just change the FOCUS, 1) Leaf absorbs blue and red light, 2) now we look closer that Chlorophyll absorbs blue and red light There is still missing explanation on how Chlorophyll absorbs blue and red light and not GREEN in atomic levels. Do you have any suggestions on how thing works? Thanks, to everyone very much for any suggestions (^v^) Chlorophyll absorbs blue and red light:The green pigment, chlorophyll, plays a central role in photosynthesis. The fact that it is green means that it absorbs blue and red light and reflects green when it is illuminated by white (all wavelengths) light. http://happy-firewalker.blogspot.com/2015/03/where-does-protein-come-from-photons.html Edited June 9, 2018 by Sci101 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 37 minutes ago, Sci101 said: There is exactly back to original question again, it just change the FOCUS, 1) Leaf absorbs blue and red light, 2) now we look closer that Chlorophyll absorbs blue and red light There is still missing explanation on how Chlorophyll absorbs blue and red light and not GREEN in atomic levels. Because there are no transitions with energy differences corresponding to green light, involving states that are populated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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