Hate is hate no matter your politics.

[MigL]

So Rosanne Barr displays to the world that she doesn't just play 'white trash' on TV; she IS white trash.
And she gets herself and a lot of others , on the unemployment line.
Whether you think that's fair to the rest of the cast or others who worked on the show, is irrelevant, as the network has the right to protect its 'image'.

Now Samantha Bee calls Ivanka Trump a "c**t' on national TV and no action is taken by the network.

Is this the double standard Republicans are always complaining about ?
Are TV networks trying to project an Anti-Trump image, so this is OK ?
Is this a non-issue ( because it agrees with your sensibilities ) ?
Or is hateful speech to be called out no matter what your political leanings ?

 

[Strange]

As an outsider (who doesn't know much about most of the people involved) ...

It is interesting because Samantha Bee used an extremely offensive word (one I would never use myself but which I hear fairly regularly) to insult someone. But the forcefulness of the word does not (in my opinion) make the insult much worse than if she had said "bitch" or "idiot". If I were in charge of the TV station, I might feel the need to suggest that she moderate her language but no more than that.

One the other hand, none of the words used by Roseanne Barr are themselves taboo or offensive. However, what she said is so extraordinarily offensive that I find it hard to believe anyone would say it. It is completely and utterly indefensible. No apology after the fact can take away from that. I am not surprised that the show was cancelled instantly. 

Edited June 1, 2018 by Strange

[John Cuthber]

Samantha's choice of vocabulary might be condemned, but her point is valid (Ivanka's outlook on life leaves much to be desired).
Rosanne's choice of language may be better calculated, but the underlying assertion is false (I didn't bother to check exactly what she said, but racist claims are unsupported in reality.

Essentially, the liar got sacked.

Is that a problem?

[iNow]

One was a comment about a persons looks and heritage (over which they have no control) and the other was about a persons actions and failure to stand up for principles. The suggested equivalence is false.

That said... It sure is a good thing neither of them were kneeling peacefully on a football field or we’d have a real problem on our hands. 

Edited June 1, 2018 by iNow

[CharonY]

Moreover:

Roseanne Barr had a history of sharing anything from conspiracy stories to racist rants (e.g. calling Susan Rice an ape,  claiming that the Clintons run a pedophile ring etc). I am quite sure that the producers already had some words with her and that was just the last straw. Also, even isolation, in one case it was an insulted to a specific person. In the other case it was clearly a racist comparison. To a degree, in fact that even right-wing pundits did not really try to defend it. Also the insult in itself (cunt) can be interpreted at worst as misogynist. But coming from  woman it can be considered less severe. 

So yes, I do not think that a double standard was applied here as there two non-equivalent situations. Also note that earlier Kathy Griffin was fired over a rather tasteless joke.

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Is this the double standard Republicans are always complaining about ?

Absolutely. And as you can see from the responses, as usual it's completely misplaced.

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Are TV networks trying to project an Anti-Trump image, so this is OK ?

I think the anti factions make more money because people tend to stay tuned longer to stories that rile them up (the Howard Stern factor). But the pro factions are very easily manipulated, so they make great clickbait and are immensely profitable. It's TV news, it's all about the $, not the information.

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Is this a non-issue ( because it agrees with your sensibilities ) ?

I agree with Strange, I don't like using the "c word" due to the vehemence for gender it displays, and the shroud of hate men who use it regularly seem to cloak themselves with. When women use it among themselves, it strikes me the same as black people owning the "n word" and using it daily. I suppose when you own something you have a right to use it, but if it's such a loaded, horrible word I'd rather nobody used it at all. But it's worthless to ban the words if the sentiments still exist.

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Or is hateful speech to be called out no matter what your political leanings ?

The folks who always sought to take the high road aren't in office anymore. In the age of Trump, quiet voices of reason aren't heard, critical thinking links  don't get clicked on. It seems the People are choosing blare and rage and pitchforks over thoughtful approaches. 

There's a difference between hate speech and angry reactions to hateful behavior. The thoughtful and compassionate voices that need air time are probably more numerous than we know, but their ratings are bad compared to the liars and haters and opportunists we have leading us now.

[iNow]

The part that really pisses me off is how practically nobody is talking about the Muslim related comments Rosanne made, as if it’s completely acceptable to suggest being a Muslim is somehow an acceptable or valid slur.

It’s like when Obama was accused of being a secret Muslim. As if that alone was disqualifying. He wasn’t, but seriously...so what if he was?!? 

Edited June 1, 2018 by iNow

[rangerx]

2 hours ago, MigL said:

Now Samantha Bee calls Ivanka Trump a "c**t' on national TV and no action is taken by the network.

Is this the double standard Republicans are always complaining about ?
Are TV networks trying to project an Anti-Trump image, so this is OK ?
Is this a non-issue ( because it agrees with your sensibilities ) ?
Or is hateful speech to be called out no matter what your political leanings ?

1- No, it's a false equivalence Republicans are always resorting to. ( I don't actually think like that, insomuch as reacted accordingly) Often enough, though.
2- Some are, but not in the absence of story line writing itself in an endless stream of instances. They had the right to fire her, but didn't. They upheld both rights. She apologized and was undoubtedly put on notice.
3- It was distasteful, rude and clearly uncalled for even in a comedic sense, but nowhere near the level of a racist rant, no less directed a person supposedly out of the blue and dubiously as a joke. (see #1)
4- Of course, but exactly what was hateful in Sam Bee's dialog?

It's the double standard liberals are always complaining about.

It was tactless joke. If anything it's not so much the C-word as it was about the kids. The kids should always be off limits, even indirectly. They both ought to have known better.
 

[Ten oz]

Calling a specific individual person a name is different than demagoguing a group of people. Barr reference the Muslim brotherhood  and Planet of the Apes purposefulve to draw a negative association to demographics of people. Bee pointedly attacked/criticized a singular person. The 2 situations are not the same.

1 hour ago, iNow said:

It’s like when Obama was accused of being a secret Muslim. As if that alone was disqualifying. He wasn’t, but seriously...so what if he was?!? 

He may as well have been. The point being made when accusing Obama of being Muslim was that Obama wasn't white. To those who cared about such distinction it was heard loud and clear. 

[MigL]

Disregarding all her past stupidities and fascination with conspiracy theories, R Barr specifically aimed her comments at one person of a certain demographic, and compared her to the offspring of fundamentalist terrorists and intelligent apes.
S Bee aimed her comment at a person of a specific gender, and compared her to a genital orifice.

How is one directed at all people of color, while the other not directed at all people of the female gender ?

Incidentally , rather than 'owning' the C word, I find the use by a female, directed at another female, even more hateful.

Personally, I have no use for R Barr, and have lost respect for S Bee, who seems to think she needs shock tactics to stay relevant.
Whatever happened to taking the high road, and demonstrating the superiority of your ideals over the other side's

[iNow]

FWIW, I’m sympathetic to your suggestion that it’s not so cut and dry. It sure seems like many of us, myself included, sometimes show more understanding toward those with whom we agree than those with whom we don’t.

I really don’t think this breaks down so neatly across clear lines like right and left or repub and dem, but it rather clearly simpler for us all to look away when “one of our own” does something while pointing and laughing and even punishing or ostracizing when one of “the others” does something. 

The equivalence being asserted here still strikes me as false for the reasons I shared above, but I’m admittedly sympathetic to the broader point you’re making. There are clearly similarities and we must each decide for ourselves what crosses the line and what does not.  

[Phi for All]

41 minutes ago, MigL said:

Incidentally , rather than 'owning' the C word, I find the use by a female, directed at another female, even more hateful.

You're entitled, I guess, but I don't see how that word could EVER be used by a woman with the contempt most men who use it often put into it.

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Whatever happened to taking the high road, and demonstrating the superiority of your ideals over the other side's

Well, rather unfortunately it appears that those days are gone. And if one demands civility or at least a certain standard of discourse, inevitably one would be accused of stifling free speech and being PC.

There are comedians of course whose whole shtick is trying to say offensive or shocking things (say Jim Jeffries), and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I am not sure whether that type of joke is common repertoire in Samantha Bee's show. That, btw. is yet another difference. At least theoretically Bee can claim that it was a bit. Unless Barr has a history of making twitter jokes (and it really does not sound like that) is unlikely to be able to claim that. 

 

[YaDinghus]

6 hours ago, MigL said:

So Rosanne Barr displays to the world that she doesn't just play 'white trash' on TV; she IS white trash.
And she gets herself and a lot of others , on the unemployment line.
Whether you think that's fair to the rest of the cast or others who worked on the show, is irrelevant, as the network has the right to protect its 'image'.

Now Samantha Bee calls Ivanka Trump a "c**t' on national TV and no action is taken by the network.

Is this the double standard Republicans are always complaining about ?
Are TV networks trying to project an Anti-Trump image, so this is OK ?
Is this a non-issue ( because it agrees with your sensibilities ) ?
Or is hateful speech to be called out no matter what your political leanings ?

 

I tend to agree that personal attacks on national TV are unprofessional, and the c word in particular expresses a very big deal of disdain. It's like calling the turkish president a goatf**ker, which happened in Germany on TV, albeit in a satirical setting. Btw that comedian still is on national TV in Germany, even though the Turkish president filed a lawsuit against him, and when Bundestag denied him, Erdogan got pretty angry at Germany and Chancellor Merkel in specific. 

I never cared for Roseanne Barr and her show in the first place, and I'm not shedding tears for her. As little as I care for Duck Dynasty. I mostly accept that characters in a movie or show have racist tendencies or prejudice towards other religions or are sexist, because it's part of the dramaturgical structure, and often it is criticized inside the film. As long as the actors don't behave like that IRL. But Roseanne posted that on her persona twitter account, and that is unacceptable. I wouldn't want to be associated with her. 

[Endy0816]

Using the word as an adjective vs as a noun too going on.

I actually liked all the other characters/plot of the show. Never really Rosanne thought  was ever truly acting though so not exactly surprised there, just mildly releived. Good isn't dead yet and actions still have consequences.

[Ten oz]

8 hours ago, MigL said:

Disregarding all her past stupidities and fascination with conspiracy theories, R Barr specifically aimed her comments at one person of a certain demographic, and compared her to the offspring of fundamentalist terrorists and intelligent apes.

Surely you understand that calling a black person an Ape is a well used racial slur and offends ALL black people. While the C word is gender specific, male equivalent being A**hole, Bee herself is of the same gender. So the context is different.

As for the Muslim Brotherhood part that was a specific signal to right wing conservatives. Here is the U.S. it was conservative media outlets that touted the evils of the the Muslim Brotherhood post Arab Spring as a way to imply Obama had some secret pro Muslim agenda. Al Qaeda, ISIS, Hamas, and etc are all more well known extremist groups responsible for more violence and not directly associated with wild right wing conspiracies about the First Black President. Barr mentioned the Muslim Brotherhood specifically as a shot out to those conservatives who bought into the birther movement, secret Muslim stuff, and etc.  

[Strange]

11 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

While the C word is gender specific

I wonder if that is a US thing. In the UK, I have heard it applied to men (by men) pretty frequently. It is just a swear word like any other.

[Ten oz]

8 hours ago, Phi for All said:

You're entitled, I guess, but I don't see how that word could EVER be used by a woman with the contempt most men who use it often put into it.

Right, this conversation reminds me a bit of ones where conservative white males argue that if African American Rappers can use the N-word than white males should be able to as well. It is entirely structured around formalities and ignores the known tropes and histories.  

[StringJunky]

7 minutes ago, Strange said:

I wonder if that is a US thing. In the UK, I have heard it applied to men (by men) pretty frequently. It is just a swear word like any other.

Yes, we apply it to anyone guilty of atrocious behaviour or if I hit my finger with a hammer or make a stupid mistake.

[Ten oz]

2 minutes ago, Strange said:

I wonder if that is a US thing. In the UK, I have heard it applied to men (by men) pretty frequently. It is just a swear word like any other.

Good point. I watch a fair share of international films and have noticed it used to describe both male and females. Here is the U.S. my experience is that one would call a female the C-word or B-word to describe them as corrupt, having low integrity, selfish, or pushy. For men calling them an A**hole or  D word conveys the same thing. 

 

[dimreepr]

45 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Good point. I watch a fair share of international films and have noticed it used to describe both male and females. Here is the U.S. my experience is that one would call a female the C-word or B-word to describe them as corrupt, having low integrity, selfish, or pushy. For men calling them an A**hole or  D word conveys the same thing. 

 

I'd imagine that association is decreasing by the day, since the arrival of the aforementioned Jim Jefferies. 

10 hours ago, MigL said:

Incidentally , rather than 'owning' the C word, I find the use by a female, directed at another female, even more hateful.

1

That's exactly the point, it all depends on the context.

[Endy0816]

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

Right, this conversation reminds me a bit of ones where conservative white males argue that if African American Rappers can use the N-word than white males should be able to as well. It is entirely structured around formalities and ignores the known tropes and histories.  

Nigga is actually okay to use locally, if you have a close relationship with the person and know your audience. Other times about asking for bodily harm or to offend everyone in your vicinity.

59 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Good point. I watch a fair share of international films and have noticed it used to describe both male and females. Here is the U.S. my experience is that one would call a female the C-word or B-word to describe them as corrupt, having low integrity, selfish, or pushy. For men calling them an A**hole or  D word conveys the same thing.

They are definitely gendered here. Interesting. Seriously thought some foreign tourists I've run into were being particularly vulgar(even if not directed at me personally).

Edited June 2, 2018 by Endy0816

[dimreepr]

Barr's insult was for no other reason than she hates, Bee hates for a reason.

Hate is never good, but its destructive power is context-dependent.

Edited June 2, 2018 by dimreepr

[Ten oz]

9 minutes ago, Endy0816 said:

if you have a close relationship with the person and know your audience. Other times about asking for bodily harm or to offend everyone in your vicinity.

All iteration of the N-word are inappropriate. Sometimes the context is meant as a racial slur and other times as a familiar term or whatever but it is always improper.  Many curse words are commonly used in private settings but that doesn't mean they are okay broadly. I am disappointed every time I hear someone used any iteration of the N-word. It might not always be racist but it is always offensive in my opinion. Only ignorant people use it loosely far as I am concerned. 

[dimreepr]

7 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

It might not always be racist but it is always offensive in my opinion.

What if your best friend, who you haven't seen for ten years, walks up to you in happy excitement and opens his arms in anticipation of a heartfelt man hug saying "MY NIGGA"?