Transgender-Age/Species?

[Raider5678]

Just now, StringJunky said:

I'll see if I can find it. I think it's still at the controversial stage in high-level. discussions

Thank you.

 

[StringJunky]

Just now, dimreepr said:

I'm not sure how to read this without an emoji.

There's nowt as queer as folk.

[dimreepr]

Just now, StringJunky said:

There's nowt as queer as folk.

Was hoping it was that one. 

[StringJunky]

9 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Thank you.

 

I found her... she's American. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/25/rachel-dolezal-not-going-stoop-apologise-grovel

[Raider5678]

7 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

I found her... she's American. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/25/rachel-dolezal-not-going-stoop-apologise-grovel

So yes, she's fighting for affirmative action to apply to Trans-Race.

 

Let's add this one as well.

 

We have Trans-Age, Trans-Species, and Trans-Race.

 

I'm a Female African-American Vulcan.

[dimreepr]

53 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

I'm a Female African-American Vulcan.

I've got a different name for it... 

[MigL]

I think what Raider is asking, is where do we draw the line ( as a society ) in fixing people's mental health issues by changing their perceived reality.
 If I was convinced I am Napoleon, and it made me happier, should society give me surgery to make me 5 ft tall, partly balding and  give me a 'hook' nose ( oh yeah, and an empire in Europe ). Or am I merely delusional and in need of drugs/therapy ?

Edited May 3, 2018 by MigL

[swansont]

4 hours ago, Raider5678 said:

I found out in Canada that people can be transgender age.

Do you have anything more concrete than a video to support this? Saying that "in Canada you can X" suggests that there is some legal framework recognizing this. Is there? 

I mean, in the US transgender has ramifications regarding discrimination on the basis of sex/gender, and related things. That's codified into law, and you can look it up, though specifics vary by jurisdiction.

https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/transgender-people-and-law

"California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont, Washington, and the District of Columbia all have such laws. Their protections vary. For example, Nevada’s law bans discrimination in employment, housing, and public accommodations like restaurants, hospitals, and retail stores; Maine’s law covers those categories plus access to credit and education."

Age identification (if that's a thing) seems to me to be orthogonal to gender identification. I don't see why or how these mix together.

[dimreepr]

6 minutes ago, MigL said:

If I was convinced I am Napoleon, and it made me happier, should society give me surgery to make me 5 ft tall, partly balding and  give me a 'hook' nose ( oh yeah, and an empire in Europe ). Or am I merely delusional and in need of drugs/therapy ?

There's a difference between delusional and unhappy.

[MigL]

A lot of people are happier in their delusions than they are with reality.
The booze, drugs and pornography suppliers are making large amounts by recognizing this. 

[dimreepr]

4 minutes ago, MigL said:

A lot of people are happier in their delusions than they are with reality.
The booze, drugs and pornography suppliers are making large amounts by recognizing this. 

It's the job of governments to lag behind.

[Raider5678]

18 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

It's the job of governments to lag behind.

So the government should indulge people in their own realities because they're happier that way?

Okay then.

 

 

33 minutes ago, swansont said:

Do you have anything more concrete than a video to support this? Saying that "in Canada you can X" suggests that there is some legal framework recognizing this. Is there? 

News articles, videos, interviews, and news segments.

Which would you like?

Additionally, there is no legal framework around it. Hence, why the question is being brought up. What happens when they begin pushing for legal framework around it?

Dimreepr is in support of it, I believe. I'm not really sure though.

 

32 minutes ago, swansont said:

Age identification (if that's a thing) seems to me to be orthogonal to gender identification. I don't see why or how these mix together.

It is a thing actually. So are Trans-Race and Trans-Species.

And when did I say they have to mix together?

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is not about Trans-Gender. This is about Trans-Age and Trans-Species. Let's keep it on topic people.

[CharonY]

52 minutes ago, MigL said:

I think what Raider is asking, is where do we draw the line ( as a society ) in fixing people's mental health issues by changing their perceived reality.

The way I see it there are two questions. First, how much do we see it as the role of society to diagnose and fix people's mental  health issues. One problem is the clear definition for certain issues, of course. But even if there are diagnoses, typically treatment is done by professionals (not the society) and, unless harm of self or others is involved, has to be initiated by the affected person (or legal guardian). 

Also, society has traditionally viewed diverging views in a negative light (thoughthere are a lot of subgroups with different levels of acceptance) but has done little in "fixing" things. What is probably meant is whether society should "accept" these divergent views. But that seems to be a different discussion. In fact you could ask, how much should society care what folks think and at what point does society want to penalize the individual. Note that this runs counter to the idea of personal freedom. We could reasonably roll out the discussion to the whole gambit of evidence-free things that people believe, including that they are different species, that astrology determines their future,  flat Earth, creationism, homeopathy etc.

Note that I reject that the equivocation of trans-genderism (though I do not think that it is a uniform thing, either and requires careful evaluation of each case) and e.g. trans-speciesm (which by all accounts just sounds silly).

The traditional approach has ranged from ignoring, ridiculing, to persecution. I do think that the internet has made things trickier as a lot of different aspects are now rolled into large meta-narratives, that blur a lot of different aspects. I.e. using youtube videos I can create a totally parallel world, in which, say Europe is a Muslin Caliphate, the US a totalitarian Wasteland and Canada provided health benefits to dragons. And then we can all be outraged about it.

The real issue is then the codification in law . There, it seems that there are clear definition of what is protected, making the whole point somewhat moot. 

[Raider5678]

2 minutes ago, CharonY said:

The real issue is then the codification in law . There, it seems that there are clear definition of what is protected, making the whole point somewhat

At the moment, however, there is no codification in law.

What I am saying though, is that it won't be long before someone is pushing for it to be codified into law.

That's where the real problems begin.

 

 

[CharonY]

1 minute ago, Raider5678 said:

What I am saying though, is that it won't be long before someone is pushing for it to be codified into law.

Any shred of evidence for that? Note that for example Intelligent Design has arguably far more proponents. Yet in court it was successfully challenged (Kitzmiller et al. vs Dover) as it clearly not science. Creating new laws specifically to what you propose would arguably be a much higher hurdle to pass. So, do you have anything other than youtube and gut feeling?

[Raider5678]

5 minutes ago, CharonY said:

So, do you have anything other than youtube and gut feeling?

 

4 years ago I would have said it'd be impossible for a man to win the woman of the year award. It came about.

Additionally, while I don't have solid evidence, the current culture surrounding people who are Transmorphic is currently unconditional acceptance.

I doubt it'll be long before they're pushing for acceptance of this.

 

The article StringJunky posted earlier mentioned a woman who was Trans-Race.

She's pushing for legal recognition of it.

Edited May 3, 2018 by Raider5678

[zapatos]

I suspect most of us are trans-race.

[Raider5678]

1 minute ago, zapatos said:

I suspect most of us are trans-race.

Trans-Race is not saying you're mixed race.

 

It's saying you're clearly a white person, but you're saying you're fully African-American, or vice versa.

Or you being an Indian and saying you're fully Asian, or vice versa.

[zapatos]

I claim to be 'white' when asked, even though I doubt that is a completely accurate assessment of my background. I choose 'white' because in the culture I grew up in the people with similar colored skin called themselves white. I think it is reasonable for people to pick their own way to identify themselves, especially with respect to race.

[Raider5678]

5 minutes ago, zapatos said:

I claim to be 'white' when asked, even though I doubt that is a completely accurate assessment of my background. I choose 'white' because in the culture I grew up in the people with similar colored skin called themselves white. I think it is reasonable for people to pick their own way to identify themselves, especially with respect to race.

Well then Affirmative Action get's kicked out the window, and I've never experienced white privilege.

 

Edited May 3, 2018 by Raider5678

[zapatos]

Just now, Raider5678 said:

Well then Affirmative Action get's kicked out the window.

Not at all. Affirmative Action protects members of groups that have previously suffered from discrimination. If I have not suffered from being a member of a group that has suffered discrimination, then I should not receive the benefits of Affirmative Action. If I claim to be black in the US but grew up with all the privilege of a white middle class upbringing, then I should not get any special treatment, regardless of the hue of my skin.

[Raider5678]

Just now, zapatos said:

Not at all. Affirmative Action protects members of groups that have previously suffered from discrimination. If I have not suffered from being a member of a group that has suffered discrimination, then I should not receive the benefits of Affirmative Action. If I claim to be black in the US but grew up with all the privilege of a white middle class upbringing, then I should not get any special treatment, regardless of the hue of my skin.

1

But then that means the government isn't respecting your right to be who you want to be.

Legally.

 

[zapatos]

How is the government legally required to respect who I want to be?

[Raider5678]

7 minutes ago, zapatos said:

How is the government legally required to respect who I want to be?

https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/transgender-people-and-law

Because they keep winning court cases that say if they don't in the case of being Trans-Gender, it's gender discrimination. Because the only possible reason you'd deny legally changing someone's gender is gender discrimination.

 

The exact same concept will apply.

It doesn't matter what you're born as. It matters what you choose to be. If you choose to be black, and the government refuses to recognize it, it's racial discrimination.

 

 

Edited May 3, 2018 by Raider5678

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, Raider5678 said:

If you choose to be black, and the government refuses to recognize it, it's racial discrimination.

 

 

We all are ultimately  from blacks, so yes, they are racially discriminating against that part of us. What percentage of black does one have to have to qualify? Is black a colour or recognition of heritage?