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So then if the universe did not come about by pure chance - what did happen? Perhaps a better question would be 'who' did it?

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I know all about your Big Bang theories, your evolutionary concepts, your philosophies how a God couldn't possibly exist, your statistics showing how everything came to be by pure chance, etc.

And if the universe did not come about by pure chance - what did happen? Perhaps a better question would be 'who' did it?

***********

I just choose to refuse to accept this information. I NEED FAITH. Faith is the only way I can believe it to be true. Nothing can change my worldview and my faith I have in Jesus Christ.

The faith you possess to believe how processes like evolution and the Big Bang actually occurred matches the faith I have that my God created everything in existence. 

The faith you have to believe in the occurrence of the Big Bang and transpeciation is the same faith you have that the chair you're sitting in will hold you, that the building you're in will not collapse on you, that the planet you're on will not disintegrate.

**********

Unless you can construct a time machine and go back to the "very beginning", your faith in scientific explanations will be no different from my faith in Biblical interpretations.

So explain to me how you'll be 100% confident in the formation of the universe once you board a time machine and travel back to the beginning.

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1 hour ago, PaulP said:

I just choose to refuse to accept this information... Nothing can change my worldview..

Given your position, there is not really much to discuss here. But thanks for sharing.

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1 hour ago, PaulP said:

I know all about your Big Bang theories, your evolutionary concepts, your philosophies how a God couldn't possibly exist, your statistics showing how everything came to be by pure chance, etc.

And if the universe did not come about by pure chance - what did happen? Perhaps a better question would be 'who' did it?

***********

I just choose to refuse to accept this information. I NEED FAITH. Faith is the only way I can believe it to be true. Nothing can change my worldview and my faith I have in Jesus Christ.

The faith you possess to believe how processes like evolution and the Big Bang actually occurred matches the faith I have that my God created everything in existence. 

The faith you have to believe in the occurrence of the Big Bang and transpeciation is the same faith you have that the chair you're sitting in will hold you, that the building you're in will not collapse on you, that the planet you're on will not disintegrate.

**********

Unless you can construct a time machine and go back to the "very beginning", your faith in scientific explanations will be no different from my faith in Biblical interpretations.

So explain to me how you'll be 100% confident in the formation of the universe once you board a time machine and travel back to the beginning.

Ancient man, in his/her ignorance and the absence of science, saw magical deities and gods in rivers, mountains, the Sun, Moon etc etc. Do yo still accept that? Of course you don,t! Because science has shown you, and given you logical explanations, models and theories as to how rivers came to be, how the Moon and Sun came to be, and how the Earth came to be. 

Science has in fact pushed the need for any supernatural/paranormal explanation of the universe back into near oblivion. And of course if you are genuine in your belief in some magical spaghetti monster/god or whatever as an explanation to have created the universe, please tell me who created that magical being? and who created him or her? and who created........

Let me add also that the evidence is so strong for the theory of evolution and the BB, that even the Catholic church have recognised it, although then they again move to their mythical deity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag6fH8cU-MU

Quote

I just choose to refuse to accept this information. I NEED FAITH. Faith is the only way I can believe it to be true. Nothing can change my worldview and my faith I have in Jesus Christ.

Good for you...You are entitled to accept, or reject anything you like and accept whatever myth you like to give you that deep, warm inner glow and good feeling. So why did you came here to share it with us? 

I prefer science, logic and reason.

Edited by beecee

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Before I write anything (and before I take a shower as I have to get ready for some drinks with the lads),
I am going to give 3 links of my argument to a person who said some of the things you are saying here, although his own focuses more on the origin of life instead of the origin of the universe but since you mention both here they are.

Link 1: http://docdro.id/6r5nwvo

Link 2:  http://docdro.id/34pMf7b

Link 3: http://docdro.id/WYtI3Gv

Take from these what you will. I might be back later to focus on what you have said but for now, I hope this will have to answer a few of your questions and claims you have made PaulP, especially the claim that it takes faith to believe in certain scientific theories and hypotheses in comparison to your faith in a supernatural creator. Equating these and putting them on a 50/50 footing is ludicrous indeed. Nobody can say for sure whether or not a teapot orbits the Sun somewhere in space between the Earth and Mars, but that doesn't mean the probability is midway.

First of all, science is a organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe. It goes through regiments of falsifiable tests. So no, I don't have faith in it.

You seem to be ignorant of this while dishonest theists like to conflate what you call "faith" (belief in something without evidence) with "reasonable expectation" that is based in either pattern of behaviour or evidence-backed assumptions. There is a reasonable explanation of the big bang and the universe existing without the need to posit supernatural deity to them. There is no need for that hypothesis. 

Perhaps a little introduction of the definitions and differences of theories, hypotheses facts and law's might be a good way to start. As it does seem you are conflating abiogenesis and evolution by natural selection. Evolution makes no claims about how life began. This is your first mistake PaulP.

And if anybody else wants to have a look at my links, please be my guest. If you have any corrections again I welcome them.


 

Edited by JamesT

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Wait a minute, isn't your title basically appalling to an argumentum ad ignorantiam? I think it is. Just because we can't explain the origin of the universe or that there isn't an answer yet that it makes your position and more valid or, my position any less. You are appealing to ignorance as evidence for something. "We have no evidence that God doesn't exist, therefore, he must or he there is good chance he does or that this claim is just as likely as any other theories." Ignorance about something says nothing about its existence or non-existence.

Your title:

Quote

"So then if the universe did not come about by pure chance - what did happen?"

are like these common phrases :

Quote

"you tell me how it was created."

Quote

"how else could you explain this or that...?"

This is basically what you are saying?

If so: that's called the argument from ignorance fallacy. Ignorance here being not knowing or not understanding how this or that could be explained, therefore god must exist. (is kinda saying: I don't know how the universe started, therefore Magic or therefor magic is on equal footing with any other competing).


Well, science honestly doesn't know whether the universe had a beginning or not! In fact, a major new hypothesis gaining ground right now is that the universe is in fact eternal. But that is beside the point. Science doesn't know, but that is okay. We don't need answers for everything, and just because we don't have an answer doesn't mean God makes sense as one. This is known as an argument from ignorance. 

A simple example: What if I put a die into a bag (6 sided), but you didn't know how many faces it had on it. 
Then I asked you, "Can I roll an 8 on the die in this bag?". Would the fact that you don't know what type of die is in the bag actually make it possible to roll an 8? Of course not. A standard six sided die cannot physically roll an 8. ever. 
Many people argue for God saying, "Well we don't really know, and if the universe is infinite, then mus'nt that mean it is likely there is a God?". This is fallacious, as shown by my example above. 

Just because we don't know another explanation for sure doesn't actually mean God is a legitimate explanation, or even possible. And indeed, very little evidence supports the idea that our universe had to have been created by a supreme being. There are a million other possibilities as to what created the universe, all as equally likely as if not more so than God. I mean people say, "But the universe looks designed!", or, "It had to have a creator!". But none of that actually is solid evidence for God. I mean, by those standards magical unicorns or tap-dancing creator-leprechauns are also possible explanations. Without some substantial evidence to support the assertion "God did it", and to show that God is the only plausible explanation, we don't actually have a convincing argument.

Just because you don't understand something or don't know yet or something is too complex does not mean a supernatural deity is behind. We just do not know yet. Simple. No more assumptions should be made than necessary. Scientific ignorance. Moving the goal posts. Cowardly stance to retain an unreasoned position. This is not rational and therefore does not make sense, i'm sorry to say.

 

Quote

"Perhaps a better question would be 'who' did it?"

No, no I wouldn't. What males you think it's a whom?

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7 hours ago, PaulP said:

I know all about your Big Bang theories, your evolutionary concepts, your philosophies how a God couldn't possibly exist, your statistics showing how everything came to be by pure chance, etc.

And if the universe did not come about by pure chance - what did happen? Perhaps a better question would be 'who' did it?

***********

I just choose to refuse to accept this information. I NEED FAITH. Faith is the only way I can believe it to be true. Nothing can change my worldview and my faith I have in Jesus Christ.

The faith you possess to believe how processes like evolution and the Big Bang actually occurred matches the faith I have that my God created everything in existence. 

The faith you have to believe in the occurrence of the Big Bang and transpeciation is the same faith you have that the chair you're sitting in will hold you, that the building you're in will not collapse on you, that the planet you're on will not disintegrate.

**********

Unless you can construct a time machine and go back to the "very beginning", your faith in scientific explanations will be no different from my faith in Biblical interpretations.

So explain to me how you'll be 100% confident in the formation of the universe once you board a time machine and travel back to the beginning.

I think the easiest to understand "who" did it is to understand that the universe is developing from the lowest possible state to eternity. From Nothing (0) to Everything(1) we have today.

What is important to understand I think that if the first moment of existence, a simple information, (the application of the laws of nature, basic consciousness, will of existence) will be everything in proporion to Nothing. Everything we have today has some informational connection(evolution) to that moment through space time. I.e. we are part of God as an atom is part of our body...I think God evolving with the system. We are simply too primitive to have more connection, what we have through the physical reality today.

I believe in God (higher intelligence naturally connected to the first moment of existence)

Edited by Lasse

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7 hours ago, PaulP said:

everything came to be by pure chance

Just no. (Which doesn't bode well for your claim "I know all about ...")

7 hours ago, PaulP said:

And if the universe did not come about by pure chance - what did happen?

No one nows. We don't even know if it "came about" (if by that you mean "was created"). It could be infinitely old.

I suppose you can fill that gap with a god of your choice, if you want.

7 hours ago, PaulP said:

Perhaps a better question would be 'who' did it?

That would only be a better question if there was some evidence that it was done by someone.

If someone is murdered, it makes sense to ask who did it.

If someone is killed in an earthquake, not so much.

7 hours ago, PaulP said:

I just choose to refuse to accept this information.

You can of course refuse to accept facts. It is a bizarre way to choose to live your life but it is up to you.

7 hours ago, PaulP said:

I NEED FAITH. Faith is the only way I can believe it to be true. Nothing can change my worldview and my faith I have in Jesus Christ.

Does you faith have to be inconsistent with reality?

There are plenty of people who have faith (in Jesus, the christian gd, other gods and prophets) who can accept the reality of the way the world is.

So it doesn't seem to be faith itself that is the problem. It seems that you have chosen not to accept reality and then are trying to use "faith" to justify your ignorance. Would your god be proud of this stance? Would he want to ignore the reality and beauty and complexity of the universe he has created for you? Just because you find it hard to understand; wouldn't he want you to work to fully understand his creation?

7 hours ago, PaulP said:

The faith you possess to believe how processes like evolution and the Big Bang actually occurred matches the faith I have that my God created everything in existence. 

No. Because one of those is back by evidence and the other is just your opinion. (And, again, there are plenty of people who accept evolution and the Big Bang but all believe a god created everything. So the problem here seems to your own personal problem, not one of faith, religion or science.)

7 hours ago, PaulP said:

So explain to me how you'll be 100% confident in the formation of the universe once you board a time machine and travel back to the beginning.

On that basis, many criminal convictions are not valid because the jury did not have a time machine to go back and watch the crime being committed? 

No. Instead they use the available evidence to reach a conclusion. (And, like science, they can't be 100% certain.)

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9 hours ago, PaulP said:

I know all about your Big Bang theories, your evolutionary concepts, your philosophies how a God couldn't possibly exist, your statistics showing how everything came to be by pure chance, etc.

And if the universe did not come about by pure chance - what did happen? Perhaps a better question would be 'who' did it?

***********

I just choose to refuse to accept this information. I NEED FAITH. Faith is the only way I can believe it to be true. Nothing can change my worldview and my faith I have in Jesus Christ.

The faith you possess to believe how processes like evolution and the Big Bang actually occurred matches the faith I have that my God created everything in existence. 

The faith you have to believe in the occurrence of the Big Bang and transpeciation is the same faith you have that the chair you're sitting in will hold you, that the building you're in will not collapse on you, that the planet you're on will not disintegrate.

**********

Unless you can construct a time machine and go back to the "very beginning", your faith in scientific explanations will be no different from my faith in Biblical interpretations.

So explain to me how you'll be 100% confident in the formation of the universe once you board a time machine and travel back to the beginning.

Did you bring a collection tray for the follower offerings ?

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9 hours ago, PaulP said:

everything came to be by pure chance

Just to highlight how silly this claim is: if you combine sodium and chlorine, they will always combine in equal quantities to form salt. You will never "by pure chance" get sugar or a potato. The universe behaves deterministically.

If you want to believe that deterministic and consistent behaviour is because of a god, then go ahead. It can't be disproved (because it isn't science; it's faith). That is a reasonable application of faith. But don't try and pretend that your faith trumps reality.  (I did read once about a US preacher or politician who said that "if the Bible and Reality disagree then it must be Reality that is wrong." But that is not faith; it is pure insanity.)

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13 hours ago, PaulP said:

I just choose to refuse to accept this information. I NEED FAITH. Faith is the only way I can believe it to be true. Nothing can change my worldview and my faith I have in Jesus Christ.

 

TBH most of the members here don't really care if there's a God or your faith in it, but they will push back if you start a topic, on a discussion (science) site that basically states "I don't care what you say, I believe in magic." (that's fine for your blog); which begs the question, what's the point?

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13 hours ago, PaulP said:

I know all about your Big Bang theories, your evolutionary concepts, your philosophies how a God couldn't possibly exist, your statistics showing how everything came to be by pure chance, etc.

And if the universe did not come about by pure chance - what did happen? Perhaps a better question would be 'who' did it?

***********

I just choose to refuse to accept this information. I NEED FAITH. Faith is the only way I can believe it to be true. Nothing can change my worldview and my faith I have in Jesus Christ.

The faith you possess to believe how processes like evolution and the Big Bang actually occurred matches the faith I have that my God created everything in existence. 

The faith you have to believe in the occurrence of the Big Bang and transpeciation is the same faith you have that the chair you're sitting in will hold you, that the building you're in will not collapse on you, that the planet you're on will not disintegrate.

**********

Unless you can construct a time machine and go back to the "very beginning", your faith in scientific explanations will be no different from my faith in Biblical interpretations.

So explain to me how you'll be 100% confident in the formation of the universe once you board a time machine and travel back to the beginning.

 Is the Bible the source of your faith? If so then you must believe these things are also true. I know this is just a meme but all of things are asserted as true or real in the Bible and it was easier to just post the meme. I know that is intellectually lazy but then so is an argument from ignorance which so far is all you have...  

 

 

cf12011958c2691bb737b4b897c8e070.jpg

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Secular scientists need faith to believe how it began.

Us creationists need faith to believe how it began.


No one was there, so whether you believe in the Bible or the "Big Bang", it is impossible to know or prove.

Both require faith - one is scientific faith and the other is spiritual faith.

**********


Whether I believe in God or I believe in science, what's the difference?

Both require FAITH - science helps to explain what COULD HAVE happened, but no one was around to witness such events.

The Bible helps to explain what happened (t
o me, not to you of course) - but it also requires FAITH.

Faith is the belief in something you cannot see or prove.

I cannot prove to you God is real just as you cannot prove to me the actual processes that led to the formation of the observable universe.

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28 minutes ago, PaulP said:

Secular scientists need faith to believe how it began.

Most scientists acknowledge that we don't know if it began and, if it did, how. 

So no faith involved. (Unless you think that saying "I don't know" is a statement of faith. But that would be weird.)

28 minutes ago, PaulP said:

No one was there, so whether you believe in the Bible or the "Big Bang", it is impossible to know or prove.

Still nonsense, for the reasons stated above. 

28 minutes ago, PaulP said:

Both require faith - one is scientific faith and the other is spiritual faith.

Nope.

28 minutes ago, PaulP said:

Whether I believe in God or I believe in science, what's the difference?

Science is based on evidence.

And why does it have to be an either/or? Why not accept reality and keep your faith?

28 minutes ago, PaulP said:

I cannot prove to you God is real just as you cannot prove to me the actual processes that led to the formation of the observable universe.

Science doesn't prove anything. It comes up with detailed, mathematical descriptions and then compares them against observation.So we know the model matches reality. You can of course, ignore that.

So there is overwhelming, and very detailed, evidence for how the universe went from a hot dense plasma to the current state we see.  The fact you choose to ignore that (as you have chosen to ignore the answers to your first post) just shows how narrow minded you are. I imagine your god face-palming as he reads what you write.

Edited by Strange

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11 minutes ago, PaulP said:

Secular scientists need faith to believe how it began.

Us creationists need faith to believe how it began.


No one was there, so whether you believe in the Bible or the "Big Bang", it is impossible to know or prove.

Both require faith - one is scientific faith and the other is spiritual faith.

**********


Whether I believe in God or I believe in science, what's the difference?

Both require FAITH - science helps to explain what COULD HAVE happened, but no one was around to witness such events.

The Bible helps to explain what happened (t
o me, not to you of course) - but it also requires FAITH.

Faith is the belief in something you cannot see or prove.

I cannot prove to you God is real just as you cannot prove to me the actual processes that led to the formation of the observable universe.

Sooner or later science will arrive to be able to explain (mathematically too) the first moment of existence. Science is a process... it takes time to know... believe is not enough evidence is a necessity.

My fate is fact based. Crazy, that Everything what I can perceive, is an observable, measurable evidence...

Edited by Lasse

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14 minutes ago, PaulP said:

Whether I believe in God or I believe in science, what's the difference?

Evidence...

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3 minutes ago, PaulP said:

Secular scientists need faith to believe how it began.

 

No, in science faith is not part of the process. Evidence is what convinces us that things either are or are not true. If we don't have enough evidence then the honest term is I don't know... As in I don't know how it all began but I have a pretty good idea back to something like 10 to the -47 of a second after it began. If you are going to assert something about science I would suggest you actually find out how science works instead of assuming it works based on how you get your beliefs. 

3 minutes ago, PaulP said:

Us creationists need faith to believe how it began.

 

Yes, it takes faith to believe in things demonstrably not true... 

3 minutes ago, PaulP said:

No one was there, so whether you believe in the Bible or the "Big Bang", it is impossible to know or prove.

 

Knowing is based on evidence, science is not in the business of proof science is based in evidence... 

3 minutes ago, PaulP said:



Both require faith - one is scientific faith and the other is spiritual faith.

 

No, in fact only religion is based on faith, science is based on what you can show, if you can't show it then you don't know it.. hence your faith based ideas are simply wishful thinking... 

3 minutes ago, PaulP said:

Whether I believe in God or I believe in science, what's the difference?

 

The difference is that science is based on evidence while god is based on baseless assertions... 

3 minutes ago, PaulP said:

Both require FAITH - science helps to explain what COULD HAVE happened, but no one was around to witness such events.
 

No, science requires evidence and being there is not necessary and more than watching a murder is necessary to solve one.   

3 minutes ago, PaulP said:

The Bible helps to explain what happened (to me, not to you of course) - but it also requires FAITH.

 

Maybe but did you bother to read the meme i posted? Do you believe in all of those things? The bible claims they happened... 

3 minutes ago, PaulP said:

Faith is the belief in something you cannot see or prove.
 

Faith is wishful thinking.

3 minutes ago, PaulP said:

I cannot prove to you God is real just as you cannot prove to me the actual processes that led to the formation of the observable universe.

Actually the actual processes that led to the formation of the universe are still under investigation. You god is just a place holder that allows you to make claims you cannot back up..  

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Doesn't really answer my question, though; what's the point? 

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41 minutes ago, PaulP said:

Secular scientists need faith to believe how it began.

Us creationists need faith to believe how it began.


No one was there, so whether you believe in the Bible or the "Big Bang", it is impossible to know or prove.

Both require faith - one is scientific faith and the other is spiritual faith.

 

We ARE there to witness the Big Bang. It is happening at this very moment. 

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that the Big Bang describes how the universe began. It does not. It explains the large scale evolution of the universe over time.

While some may offer theories of the 'beginning' of the universe, no scientists claim to 'know' how it began.

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16 hours ago, zapatos said:

Given your position, there is not really much to discuss here. But thanks for sharing.

What do you mean? I can't bring myself to believe it came from nothing by pure chance. It's you who believes it came about by pure chance.

Why would you believe everything came from a singularity that existed in a "nothingness" yet you can't believe that a supreme God was in full control and created all?

What is the difference between the singularity and God to you people?

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8 minutes ago, PaulP said:

What is the difference between the singularity and God to you people?

The difference is that nobody beliefs in the former.

Neither does anyone belief that it came from nothingness.

I have no clue where you got the pure chance thing from. I don't think anyone beliefs in that either.

None of your assertions about what scientists say are actually what scientists say. Perhaps you should listen more to scientists.

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8 minutes ago, PaulP said:

What do you mean? I can't bring myself to believe it came from nothing by pure chance. It's you who believes it came about by pure chance.

 

Who says it came about by pure chance? Citation please! 

8 minutes ago, PaulP said:

Why would you believe everything came from a singularity that existed in a "nothingness" yet you can't believe that a supreme God was in full control and created all?

 

You keep making these assertions about what others believe, who makes these claims, can you give quotes in context? 

8 minutes ago, PaulP said:

What is the difference between the singularity and God to you people?

A singularity is a mathematical concept no one knows if such a thing exists and no one who understands it would make that claim. Why do you claim the existence of a god? 

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10 minutes ago, PaulP said:

What do you mean? I can't bring myself to believe it came from nothing by pure chance. It's you who believes it came about by pure chance.

There is zero evidence it came from nothing. (It is a popular hypothesis but there is no evidence for it.)

There is zero evidence the universe was created at all.

11 minutes ago, PaulP said:

Why would you believe everything came from a singularity that existed in a "nothingness"

No one believes that.

11 minutes ago, PaulP said:

What is the difference between the singularity and God to you people?

One is a mathematical result that says we don't know what happened.

The other is a guess about what happened.

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1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

Evidence...

  • We've actually tested the Big Bang??

  • They've created galaxies and nebulae inside of science laboratories?

  • Has science allowed us to witness the creation of a star before our eyes?

  • Has science allowed us to watch the formation of another galaxy?

You're trying to claim absolute truth on something that occurred so far in the past.

No one observed it, no one recorded it - so even if you conduct millions of experiments and attempt to try to figure it out - you have to admit we'll never know.

We cannot know 100% - it requires a degree of "faith" to believe in that part of science.

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Just now, PaulP said:
  • We've actually tested the Big Bang??

  • They've created galaxies and nebulae inside of science laboratories?

  • Has science allowed us to witness the creation of a star before our eyes?

  • Has science allowed us to watch the formation of another galaxy?

You're trying to claim absolute truth on something that occurred so far in the past.

No one observed it, no one recorded it - so even if you conduct millions of experiments and attempt to try to figure it out - you have to admit we'll never know.

We cannot know 100% - it requires a degree of "faith" to believe in that part of science.

Religion is the only claim of absolute knowledge I am aware of, science uses theories that describe what we see in reality. New information is always welcome and can change the status quo. Where is your evidence of a god? 

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3 minutes ago, PaulP said:
  • We've actually tested the Big Bang??

  • They've created galaxies and nebulae inside of science laboratories?

  • Has science allowed us to witness the creation of a star before our eyes?

  • Has science allowed us to watch the formation of another galaxy?

You're trying to claim absolute truth on something that occurred so far in the past.

No one observed it, no one recorded it - so even if you conduct millions of experiments and attempt to try to figure it out - you have to admit we'll never know.

We cannot know 100% - it requires a degree of "faith" to believe in that part of science.

You seem to be mistaking me for someone who gives a shit...

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