Lasse Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, Strange said: Or, you have changed the meaning of "predetermined" to mean "not determined at all; the future can change at any time"? Why such radical thinking. Just black and white. True or false, one or zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 Just now, Lasse said: Why such radical thinking. Just black and white. True or false, one or zero. That makes absolutely no sense. What are you talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lasse Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 26 minutes ago, Strange said: 26 minutes ago, Lasse said: Why such radical thinking. Just black and white. True or false, one or zero? That makes absolutely no sense. What are you talking about? 27 minutes ago, Lasse said: minutes ago, Strange said: Or, you have changed the meaning of "predetermined" to mean "not determined at all; the future can change at any time"? So i mean what I wrote previously. The fact that something is there (predetermined) does not mean we can not impact* the course of action. *which is the part you perceived as: not determined at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 Just now, Lasse said: So i mean what I wrote previously. The fact that something is there (predetermined) does not mean we can not impact* the course of action. 1. That wasn't addressed to you. (Although it could have been.) 2. Predetermined means "fixed in advance". Which means, by definition, you can't change it. So, you are saying that if the future is fixed you can still change it. But that is nonsense because it is fixed (which means "not changeable"). If you can change the future, then it is not fixed, which means it is not predetermined. Maybe you don't mean "predetermined"? Maybe you mean "predictable" or "unfortunate" or "happy". I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lasse Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, Strange said: future is fixed The future can not be absolutely fixed. We have impact in the present time. The future is plastic in the present time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 Just now, Lasse said: The future can not be absolutely fixed. We have impact in the present time. The future is plastic in the present time. citation needed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Lasse said: The future can not be absolutely fixed. We have impact in the present time. The future is plastic in the present time. Then it isn't predetermined. You can't have it both ways: either the future is fixed/predetermined or we can change it so it isn't fixed/predetermined. Make your mind up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lasse Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Strange said: If you can change the future, then it is not fixed, which means it is not predetermined. I perceive that reality is determined until the present time (predetermined, fixed) and has the potential to be impacted in the present moment (not absolutely! Predetermined) 9 minutes ago, iNow said: citation needed I can not cite. I can give an example: Nuclear warheads predetermined to be used in conflict. President Trump has the power to ignite it any time, he still has the limited freedom of choice to use it and when to use it, impected by political, economical, cultural, moral, ethical aspects of reality. Edited April 16, 2018 by Lasse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Lasse said: I perceive that reality is determined until the present time (predetermined, fixed) That is not what "predetermined" means. Of course the past is fixed. I'm not sure why you would even need to say that. You might note that the word "predetermined" begins with the bound morpheme "pre" which means "in advance" so we are talking about the future. And the second morpheme is "determined" which means "fixed". You can't say that things in the past are predetermined. That is like saying "I am looking forward to yesterday". 6 minutes ago, Lasse said: and has the potential to be impacted in the present moment (not absolutely! Predetermined) Not predetermined at all then. (It can't be a little bit predetermined; that is like being "a little bit pregnant".) In other words, "predetermined" is not the word you are looking for. Edited April 16, 2018 by Strange Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lasse Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 9 minutes ago, Strange said: Then it isn't predetermined. You can't have it both ways: either the future is fixed/predetermined or we can change it so it isn't fixed/predetermined. Make your mind up. Exactly on this I said it is not seems to be just black or white, i.e even it is predetermined by the past can be impected in the present and by that alter the future outcome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 Just now, Lasse said: Exactly on this I said it is not seems to be just black or white, i.e even it is predetermined by the past can be impected in the present and by that alter the future outcome It is quite black and white. Predeterminism is not about the past. The future is either fixed and unchangeable (i.e. predetermined) or it isn't (i.e. not predetermined). It can't be both changeable and unchangeable. That makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lasse Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, Strange said: Not predetermined at all then. (It can't be a little bit predetermined; that is like being "a little bit pregnant".) Someone is pregnant and it is predetermined she will give birth in the future. The when, will depend from the impacts during the pregnancy i.e stress will make it happen earlier than it should Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 19 minutes ago, Lasse said: I can not cite. I can give an example: If you cannot cite evidence in support of your claims then you need to stop making claims. If you cannot support what you say, stop saying it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Lasse said: Someone is pregnant and it is predetermined she will give birth in the future. The when, will depend from the impacts during the pregnancy i.e stress will make it happen earlier than it should I don't think you know what "predetermined" means. Quote Someone is pregnant and it is predetermined she will give birth in the future. No it isn't. For all sorts of reasons. Not if by "predetermined" you mean that we know she will give birth. We don't know any such thing. But if you actually mean the birth is predetermined then you need to explain why do all the factors that could change that have no effect but the time of birth can be changed by external factors? How do you know which things are predetermined and which things are not? Are there categories of things that are predetermined and categories of things we can control? Is this to do with their size? Or complexity? Or how far in the future they are? What rational reason do you have for thinking that some things are predetermined but other things are not? 28 minutes ago, Lasse said: Nuclear warheads predetermined to be used in conflict. Oh no! You know that for a fact? We are all going to die? Or maybe, again, you don't mean "predetermined"? Maybe you mean "designed" or "planned" or or "possibly" or "hopefully not". I have no idea. But it is getting clearer and clearer that you are using the wrong word. Edited April 16, 2018 by Strange Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrP Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 9 minutes ago, Lasse said: Someone is pregnant and it is predetermined she will give birth in the future. The when, will depend from the impacts during the pregnancy i.e stress will make it happen earlier than it should Predicted but not predetermined - she could miscarry, die, abort.... it is not guaranteed/predetermined... just expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lasse Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, iNow said: If you cannot cite evidence in support of your claims then you need to stop making claims. I can not cite but took an example. You can not cite the theory of everything since it is not yet discovered but that does not mean that something would not work based on that... 59 minutes ago, Strange said: We are all going to die? Very good example! This seems to be predetermined for Humans. 59 minutes ago, Strange said: I don't think you know what "predetermined" means That the physical Reality has a unique set of existence presented through energy and matter in space (time). I think we can impact it's present but we can not impact its past. We have impacts on it's future. The recognition and the thought is part of the continuum (i.e it takes time to think through something). We use to arrive to a conclusion. What is your recognition? Own words please. No wiki. 1 hour ago, Strange said: It can't be both changeable and unchangeable. That makes no sense. Why? Now it's changing. The past is done. The future is predetermined by the present reality and subject to change. Edited April 16, 2018 by Lasse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Lasse said: Very good example! This seems to be predetermined for Humans. Are you doing this deliberately? Do I need to report you for trolling? Do you actually know that a nuclear war is inevitable? 24 minutes ago, Lasse said: I think we can impact it's present but we can not impact its past. We have impacts on it's future. Right. So not "predetermined". The word you are looking for is (ready for this) ... "not predetermined" or "undetermined". Here are some example sentences: "We can change the future because we have free will and so the future is not predetermined." "The future is undetermined so we can change it because we have free will." "Someone is pregnant but it is undetermined if she will give birth in the future." "Nuclear warheads are not predetermined to be used in conflict. Let's hope they aren't!" See? Easy, isn't it, when you use the right words. Edited April 16, 2018 by Strange 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lasse Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Strange said: Do you actually know that a nuclear war is inevitable? That should never happen. We are smarter than that. If you would recognize I am the only one never offends. I meant the example. You just wrote it when I was thinking about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Lasse said: That should never happen. We are smarter than that. So it isn't predetermined. So when you said it was, you were using the wrong word. Do you agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lasse Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Strange said: We can change the future because we have free will and so the future is not predetermined." This would be correct like this: We can change the future because we have free will and so the future is not determined. 3 minutes ago, Strange said: So it isn't predetermined Everything what you can perceive is here. It IS predetermined. Reality is here. Maybe You are trolling Edited April 16, 2018 by Lasse -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 Just now, Lasse said: This should sound be correct like this: We can change the future because we have free will and so the future is not determined. That doesn't really change anything. You could use the word "determined" about the past ("the past is determined and unchangeable") but it seems a bit silly. You can't use "predetermined" about the past. But using either "determined" (fixed) or "predetermined" (fixed in advance) about the future means exactly the same thing. In all cases, you have missed "predetermined". I have no idea what concept you are trying to express by using "predetermined" but you have failed completely. (Maybe try Google Translate. I don't know how well it works from Hungarian into English.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Lasse said: This would be correct like this: We can change the future because we have free will and so the future is not determined. Being cryptic only has value if you actually have something to say. Edit, Xposted. Edited April 16, 2018 by dimreepr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lasse Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 (edited) "So it isn't predetermined"-Strange. Deny please than the existence of Reality if you think it is not here as a pre-determining physical base for the future. Edited April 16, 2018 by Lasse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Lasse said: Deny please than the existence of Reality if you think it is not here as a pre-determining physical base for the future. You do know, you don't have to reply? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lasse Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 8 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Being cryptic only has value if you actually have something to say. Edit, Xposted. True Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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