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US Government Shuts Down... Again

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It is still unclear to me what you mean. Republicans around you voted for Trump because Democracts were racists in the 60s and that is why Republicans today are not driven by racism despite evidence to the contrary...?

I mean of course, there is a sizeable proportion who voted along party lines out of loyalty, but those would not need to make any excuses. I have colleagues like this, though they are really struggling with the current administration.

Edited by CharonY

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58 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

I realize this. I just said that's a common thing many people around me believe.

People believe in bigfoot, too. What does it add to the discussion?

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Just now, swansont said:

People believe in bigfoot, too. What does it add to the discussion?

That bigfoot has nothing to do with this discussion.

People's belief about which party is racist does.

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3 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

That bigfoot has nothing to do with this discussion.

People's belief about which party is racist does.

That's why it was "on another note"?

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So yeah, about the shutdown...

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9 minutes ago, iNow said:

So yeah, about the shutdown...

Good point.

I've gotten off track.

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I'm heartily sick of all the gaming going on in our politics to sludge up the works and make "government" synonymous with "roadblocks to success". These technical tactics of not funding the government or else, or not approving the debt ceiling or else, the gerrymandering, and the hideous amounts of money and effort spent on reducing the effectiveness of the government overall goes completely against the spirit of what a government should be about. This is more of the throw-mud-on-it-then-call-it-ugly tactic used to sway voters emotionally away from reason.

Who doesn't want an effective government? Those who have the wealth to do without one, and that's who we've got in charge.

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GOP talking points today have suggested they won’t even negotiate on DACA and CHIP until AFTER the government opens again. Basically, make the entire shutdown a colossal waste that achieves literally zero of the stated goals.

Anyone think that’s the likely outcome here, or will the GOP be forced to give a bit since they need democratic votes? Will democrats lose their spine and lose this (I hate to use this word given the magnitude of what’s happening, but...) game of chicken?

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1 minute ago, iNow said:

GOP talking points today have suggested they won’t even negotiate on DACA and CHIP until AFTER the government opens again. Basically, make the entire shutdown a colossal waste that achieves literally zero of the stated goals.

Anyone think that’s the likely outcome here, or will the GOP be forced to give a bit since they need democratic votes? Will democrats lose their spine and lose this (I hate to use this word given the magnitude of what’s happening, but...) game of chicken?

I feel like the Democrats are more in favor of keeping the government open, however, if they back down and open the government back open they'll appear weak to many more people who'd rather see Democrats wait until the other side says "chicken."

The Republicans, however, might be the first to give in my opinion.

If it's not over by Tuesday morning though, this could go on a while.

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13 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

I feel like the Democrats are more in favor of keeping the government open,

It cost us $24B last time it was shut down. I feel like the Democrats are right to think this way. Remember, the Republicans want the government to look bad so they can shrink it or otherwise opt out of helping pay for it. 13 minutes ago, Raider5678 said: however, if they back down and open the government back open they'll appear weak to many more people who'd rather see Democrats wait until the other side says "chicken." This is more like playing "chicken" over the government, only one side takes up the whole road, so there's no place for the other side to swerve to avoid them. A better analogy would be a mugging, where the mugger gets all your valuables but also wants all the other stuff too, since he's got you here. Link to comment Share on other sites Just now, Phi for All said: It cost us$24B last time it was shut down. I feel like the Democrats are right to think this way.

This is more like playing "chicken" over the government, only one side takes up the whole road, so there's no place for the other side to swerve to avoid them.

A better analogy would be a mugging, where the mugger gets all your valuables but also wants all the other stuff too, since he's got you here.

They are right. I agree.

You also have to note though, the GOP probably sees it the same way, that it's the Democrats who should back down and are forcing the government shutdown.

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2 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

You also have to note though, the GOP probably sees it the same way, that it's the Democrats who should back down and are forcing the government shutdown.

Which is not reasonable, since the Dems are asking for things the GOP had already promised. The dems offered up a very short CR, but it was denied by McConnell. Dems offered up a way to pay the troops. Denied by McConnell. The GOP controls what gets voted on. The bipartisan solutions for DACA and CHIP that would pass have not been brought up for a vote. And they've had months to do this.

So yeah, they can see it that way, but it's BS.

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1 minute ago, Raider5678 said:

You also have to note though, the GOP probably sees it the same way, that it's the Democrats who should back down and are forcing the government shutdown.

Yes, the bill has few bi-partisan concessions, the GOP wants it all their own way, but they don't have the votes for that, so instead of compromise, they allow the government to be shut down, costing us billions we really could have used, and blame it on the Dems because they wouldn't bend over and take it quietly. The bully rarely sees his demands as unreasonable.

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Also, trump said, “bring me a bipartisan deal and I’ll sign it.” They did (Graham, Durban, and a few others), but he moved the goal posts. Said, nope... now we want more.

They had an agreement with Trump Friday at 2pm, gave a MAJOR concession by offering to give him his stupid wall... $20B over 10 years... said, fine. This is the dumbest thing we’ve ever heard and are totally against it, but if that’s what it takes to help these kids... to move forward on what 80% of the public... Dems and Republicans alike... all fully support... then we’ll do it. Well even help lay the ridiculous bricks.... He got what he wanted... He agreed and it was ready, but then 2 hours later trumps team called them and said, “oops... never mind. J/k. We know that’s what trump agreed to, but he didn’t check with the rest of us. That’s not good enough. We actually want more.” McConnell himself basically said “we could do this, we’re ready to make a deal, but we don’t even know where the president is or what he even wants.” He can’t even get his own team to support him and stop working in opposite directions The senate had a compromise in hand a few minutes before midnight Friday, but the right wing in the house wouldn’t allow it to pass, so they had to scrap it. Why pass something the republicans in the house will just vote down anyway. The Dems asked to vote on allowing military paychecks to continue despite the shutdown, McConnell wouldn’t even allow the vote. No up or down, just “nope, we won’t even let the senators consider it.” But yeah... let’s blame the democrats for all of this in this insane bizarro world we live in. Because that makes total sense. Edited by iNow Link to comment Share on other sites 11 minutes ago, iNow said: But heah... let’s blame the democrats in this insane bizarro world we live in. Because that makes total sense. The Democrats think the government can work to help, but they're obviously wrong because the Republicans can force it to shut down over this vote. Ipso facto, government is bad, so Republicans are good for wanting it to fail, which, of course, would be the Democrats fault. This is the part that really burns. When you don't have enough votes to get what you want, you compromise until you get enough votes. You don't shut it all down, then blame colleagues for representing their constituency. Link to comment Share on other sites the operative word in the OP is "again" I don't think this is nearly the issue many others see it as. Shutting down the government has become a standard strategy for both the current dominant political parties. It too shall pass. Although I have no evidence, I suspect that the main reason why the congressional budgeting and funding process has remained structured the way it is is because both parties Like having this ability for political grandstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites 8 hours ago, OldChemE said: the operative word in the OP is "again" I don't think this is nearly the issue many others see it as. Shutting down the government has become a standard strategy for both the current dominant political parties. It too shall pass. Although I have no evidence, I suspect that the main reason why the congressional budgeting and funding process has remained structured the way it is is because both parties Like having this ability for political grandstanding. This is the first time the government has shut down when one party controls both branches of congress and the White House. They agreed to some CRs but instead of the GOP attending to the business of the budget and the other pressing matters, they decided to work on the tax cut (which, BTW, included a promise to get DACA worked out right after) So now you have the GOP (and especially Trump) reneging on promises. So why should the dems consider promises to see to CHIP and DACA after we get the budget straightened out? They have no power to being the matters to a vote. Only the republicans do. Link to comment Share on other sites 4 hours ago, swansont said: So now you have the GOP (and especially Trump) reneging on promises. So why should the dems consider promises to see to CHIP and DACA after we get the budget straightened out? Oh, come on... I'm just SURE that we'll get that football next time!! </sarcasm> Link to comment Share on other sites Senate has reached a tentative deal. Extend government funding for 3 more weeks (yes, only 3 weeks), fund childrens health insurance (CHIP) for 6 more years, and have a vote on immigration within this next 3 weeks. Still needs to pass senate vote, then pass the GOP house, then get Trump to sign, so it's hardly a done deal. Link to comment Share on other sites I really hoped I wouldn't have to live out the plot from Mad Max in my old age but it seems to be inevitable. Pitchforks and torches time my friends, I do not say this easily, not just my personal life is swirling around the bowl but many people I know who worked hard and gave life their best are heading that way as well. When a tiny percentage of people control the lion's share of wealth things will go bad. History tells us this but the people who have any power don't seem to give a shit. Sadly the people who vote against their self interests and no I am not talking about the extreme poor but they do it too, but the people who think they are well off and can't be touched will fall the hardest... Link to comment Share on other sites I find myself disappointed. Getting CHIP funding for 6 years is a very good thing. Lots of health insurance for lots of kids. Bravo. Gratitude for those millions of families. Leaving DACA unsolved was dumb, though. Democrats shouldn’t have given up until that happened. That’s what this fight was for. DACA. Grow a spine, FFS. You pulled the pin on the grenade. Now, charge forward and absorb the explosion. Don’t cower on the first business day where the explosion actually matters and say, “oopsie...j/k.” Very few fights are won by choosing to no longer fight. The people will stand behind those who stand up for what’s right. Having the courage of ones convictions is relevant. Looking like a wuss who can’t take one on the chin or absorb a few body blows for the greater good and to significantly help others is, unfortunately, relevant, too. McConnell has given no reason to trust him. Quite the opposite, really (see also: Merrick Garland). What do you think? Oh, and the deal today? Included$31 billion dollars more in tax cuts (adding to the $1.5 trillion in deficits already created by the other tax cuts they just passed): Quote The deal struck by Democrats and Republicans on Monday to end a brief government shutdown contains$31 billion in tax cuts, including a temporary delay in implementing three health care-related taxes.

(...)

The Congressional Budget Office said this month that the federal budget deficit reached $228 billion in the first three months of the current fiscal year,$18 billion more than the deficit in the first quarter of fiscal 2017, despite strong economic growth. And that was before the tax cuts kicked in.

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6 hours ago, iNow said:

I find myself disappointed. Getting CHIP funding for 6 years is a very good thing. Lots of health insurance for lots of kids. Bravo. Gratitude for those millions of families. Leaving DACA unsolved was dumb, though.

Democrats shouldn’t have given up until that happened. That’s what this fight was for. DACA. Grow a spine, FFS. You pulled the pin on the grenade. Now, charge forward and absorb the explosion. Don’t cower on the first business day where the explosion actually matters and  say, “oopsie...j/k.”

I disagree. They got CHIP and gave up very little. I don't think it's a given that the GOP leadership wanted CHIP. They could have acted on it at any time in the last few months, but they didn't.

Now the GOP has no excuse. The said they'd need three weeks for DACA and now they have it, so DACA is now not part of the budget deal. If DACA is not worked out or not brought to a vote, it's because McConnell lied. If it passes the senate and is not voted on in the house, then Ryan is to blame. If the president vetoes it, then it's all on him. Finalizing a budget is contingent on getting this done. The focus now is all on the GOP.

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11 minutes ago, swansont said:

I disagree. They got CHIP and gave up very little. I don't think it's a given that the GOP leadership wanted CHIP. They could have acted on it at any time in the last few months, but they didn't.

Now the GOP has no excuse. The said they'd need three weeks for DACA and now they have it, so DACA is now not part of the budget deal. If DACA is not worked out or not brought to a vote, it's because McConnell lied. If it passes the senate and is not voted on in the house, then Ryan is to blame. If the president vetoes it, then it's all on him. Finalizing a budget is contingent on getting this done. The focus now is all on the GOP.

I agree with iNow's position. What will change in their (Democrats) favor in the next 3 weeks. All the GOP agreed to do is address DACA and have  a vote. 51 Republicans could vote to end DACA and have all 800,000 protected by DACA be deported and Republicans would still be keeping their end of the bargain. Despite the Senate being nearly split equally the narrative is Republicans need 9 Democrats to pass a budget and not Democrats need 11 Republicans; either adds up to 60 votes. All giving Republicans another 3 weeks does in allow them time to have a 80's style training montage and comeback more prepared to fight. Republicans have repeated proven to be dishonest negotiators. They filibustered Garland demanding 60 votes but then seated Gorsuch with a simple majority. There is no good faith here. There is no status quo. Republicans will move forward in which ever way best suits them and could careless about what they agreed to. This is most the same group that voted to repeal the ACA over 100 times. They do not fear redundant divisive battles or damaging what's in the public's best interest.

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15 hours ago, Moontanman said:

I really hoped I wouldn't have to live out the plot from Mad Max in my old age but it seems to be inevitable. Pitchforks and torches time my friends, I do not say this easily, not just my personal life is swirling around the bowl but many people I know who worked hard and gave life their best are heading that way as well. When a tiny percentage of people control the lion's share of wealth things will go bad. History tells us this but the people who have any power don't seem to give a shit. Sadly the people who vote against their self interests and no I am not talking about the extreme poor but they do it too, but the people who think they are well off and can't be touched will fall the hardest...

I'm starting to think that given enough time, in a democracy, people will ultimately give away what makes them free.

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1 minute ago, Raider5678 said:

I'm starting to think that given enough time, in a democracy, people will ultimately give away what makes them free.

Turkey (the country).

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