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Butch
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10 hours ago, Butch said:

He is not knowledgeable when it comes to science, for example... He wants to establish a moon base in preparation for a manned Mars mission. I know his thinking on a Mars mission is wrong, however he has a knack for finding the right people. He has expressed the feeling that American technology is helping the planet as a whole. When he left the Paris Accord he stated that American technology produces the most efficient and cleanest facilities on Earth and this technology is being shared even in the third world.

I think he was right in leaving the Accord, this country is more than willing to help them who help themselves, we should not be held to help those who are not.

Most of the naysayers are focused on climate change... I believe climate change is happening, I also believe the U.S. is leading the world in reducing pollution. That said, if man had never appeared on Earth, the climate would still be changing and I don't think there really is a lot we can do about it... Even if we could turn on a machine that would regulate the climate, I don't think we should play around with such things... We are not gods.

Here is a quote from a Trump interview you can find it all over the web... Spun many different ways.

"Perhaps the best use of our limited financial resources should be in dealing with making sure that every person in the world has clean water. Perhaps we should focus on eliminating lingering diseases around the world like malaria. Perhaps we should focus on efforts to increase food production to keep pace with an ever-growing world population. Perhaps we should be focused on developing energy sources and power production that alleviates the need for dependence on fossil fuels. We must decide on how best to proceed so that we can make lives better, safer and more prosperous."

Sounds like science to me.

!

Moderator Note

What you believe is not at issue. When I say back up your claim it means present facts, preferably with links to credible sources. (see e.g. Arete's posts following yours as an example)

Simply quoting Trump is often meaningless, as he has taken both sides of so many issues.

 
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On 11/8/2017 at 7:13 PM, Strange said:

And you believed him?

By abandoning the agreement, the US will not be helping anyone. (But will, of course, benefit from the work that all the other countries do to meet the goals.)

I'm not sure what you/Trump think the agreement is about. It almost sounds like you think it is about the US bailing out other countries, or something. In fact it is about all countries doing their bit. The US is now, I believe, the only country that has refused to agree to do their best to reduce the effects of climate change. Luckily, industry and many states are more intelligent, and have a better grasp of the science, than Trump and his anti-science cronies.

The U.S. was helping before the Accord and will help still... But on our own terms. 

Is China doing its bit, India? If a country is developed enough to produce nuclear weapons it is developed enough for clean energy! Perhaps you have not read the terms of the Paris Accord?

https://unfccc.int/files/essential_background/convention/application/pdf/english_paris_agreement.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwih7tjJhLTXAhUCS2MKHaZhDgQQFggzMAA&usg=AOvVaw1a5d54sI9wYCXIa00vWfIi

The clean air act of 1963 led the world, long before the Paris Accord... Sounds like the world needs to catch up, via our leadership!

Edited by Butch
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On 04/11/2017 at 7:46 PM, Butch said:

Some of Trump's tweets are well...

Would we really rather have a president that hides behind closed doors and speaks only via a speech writer or a very strategic press secretary?

He doesn't even understand the material he is reading. Then when he has no material to read from, steals from other peoples material or regurgitates material he has already memorised.

 

 

And even when he is wrong, he is right. Actually, Trump is a classical psychopath. And I don't say that lightly. 

I know of one good case he regurgitated material he had memorised, there was an easter egg hunt going on at the white house, and his speech somehow turned into how it was going to make america better. 

 

America has made several steps back, in several pressing topics, two of those include racism and climate control 

Now maybe stupidity control has to be factored in to the next generation after all... Trump is not the only disappointment right now. Neo Nazi far right agenda parties have won votes in Germany recently. Can anyone say fourth Reich?

But then , I say took several steps back in racism, but it could be argued, what we have seen with Trump acting as the far right poster boy for America, has given incentive for racists to come out of the woodworks. My black friend in america was called a Nigger three times within the three weeks after his election. Whether this has continued. is not known to me, but this is the issue and Americans are allowing it to happen, some of them reluctantly. 

On 06/11/2017 at 9:58 PM, Butch said:

If you paid tuition for Trump University and expected to learn to become a billionaire without applying yourself, would you be surprised when you failed?

I believe Trump is an honest statesman, I also believe he is a dog that will rip out your through with no mercy in the business world. If he wanted to be a politician, he could probably do well. I do believe he chooses to be a statesman.

 

Psychopaths are not honest people. In fact, high functioning psychopaths do very well, by such manipulation of people around them. Many of them hold very respectable jobs, such as judges, lawyers, police officers... but do you see a pattern emerging? Psychopaths thrive on power. Such as the case with Trump. 

 

And he hates being challenged and your constitutional rights are being challenged every day. America is not what it once was and it is not great. 

What makes me laugh is that Trump once said no one understands the ''amendments like he does'' in his own words, yet, the only one he seems to be upholding is your right to bare arms and even that speaks platitudes for Trump and his agenda, because he is a demagogue. Yes, guns are an issue, but when he is in office, he is the first issue. 

Life is about its shades, let's not forget this. Life is about doing right over evil, since the majority appear complicit in this way. So.... what I am saying is, things are actually not too late for America to become great again. But it won't happen under him... not much happens under him. If you recall all his promises, hardly any where fulfilled. 

Edited by Dubbelosix
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1 hour ago, Butch said:

Is China doing its bit, India?

Uh. Yea. 

http://www.climatecentral.org/news/china-india-climate-leaders-west-falters-21377

Quote

India has developed one of the world’s most aggressive plans for installing solar panels, part of an effort by the large but low-income nation to provide electricity to the hundreds of millions of residents who currently lack regular access to it.

India’s ambitious clean power plans rely heavily on finance and aid from developed countries and experts expect they will be jeopardized by shifts in the U.S. and potentially elsewhere away from providing international assistance.

More recently, state governments in India have begun working aggressively to produce clean power and to help their residents adapt to the impacts of climate change. “This is the right approach, as impacts are understood better at local level,” said Harjeet Singh, a New Delhi-based climate policy lead for global nonprofit ActionAid.

“State governments as well as several local authorities are currently developing or implementing their plans,” Singh said. “A large part of money to carry the actions out will come from the national and sub-national governments, but international finance is also needed to boost these efforts.”

(...)

China’s leaders have been toiling in recent years to reverse the policies that allowed wanton pollution of the water and the air, including greenhouse gas pollution. That shift has amplified recently as China has come to view clean technology as a major potential driver of its economy.

China aims to create 13 million clean energy jobs by 2020. In 2015 it overtook the U.S. as the largest market for electric vehicles. The country is delivering on its Paris climate goals far more quickly than it had anticipated, prompting some onlookers to speculate that it may boost its pledge during the years ahead.

“China is seeing climate change as an opportunity,” said Ranping Song, an expert on climate policies in developing countries with the nonprofit World Resources Institute. “China would be in a good position to boost its climate pledge, if the economic transition goes as planned.” 

 

See also: http://www.wri.org/blog/2017/05/achieving-indias-ambitious-renewable-energy-goals-progress-report

And: http://business.edf.org/blog/2017/08/17/china-the-new-leading-voice-on-climate-change/

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4 hours ago, Butch said:

But on our own terms. 

I think this is the part that resonates with Trump supporters. It's also where he skews the information he pushes.

This phrase assumes we weren't negotiating on our own terms to begin with. It assumes the parts the WH disagrees with are more important than what the agreement does for us as a whole. It's a favorite tactic of propaganda called Begging the Question. It's the same way, during his campaign, he forced the spectre of crime on the voters at a time when it was overall as low as it had ever been.

This administration has given up our seat at the table for a LOT of modern discussion, and it's clear that many countries no longer look to the US for guidance because of it. Trump has made it quite clear that he doesn't look for alliances so much as limited partners who follow his lead in everything. These former friends will find their way with other allies, while Trump aligns us closer to the ruthless ideologies and agendas of Putin and Asaad. 

Tweeting is entertainment, like the news has become entertainment, all designed to keep you reading/watching/listening. When rational people present rational solutions that will produce better results for everyone, I think their voices are being drowned out because sometimes the smartest thing to do (and actually the most conservative) is boring, unentertaining, and ultimately un-clickworthy. Oh wow, folks are getting along, nobody starving, life better for all, it's all just so... uncontroversial.

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21 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I think this is the part that resonates with Trump supporters. It's also where he skews the information he pushes.

This phrase assumes we weren't negotiating on our own terms to begin with. 

I think many Trump supporters have their own individual concept of "our own". I am not under the impression by "our own" they mean U.S. Citizens broadly. That is part of the reason they are so dismissive about Russia's interference in the Election. 

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31 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I think this is the part that resonates with Trump supporters. It's also where he skews the information he pushes.

This phrase assumes we weren't negotiating on our own terms to begin with. It assumes the parts the WH disagrees with are more important than what the agreement does for us as a whole. It's a favorite tactic of propaganda called Begging the Question. It's the same way, during his campaign, he forced the spectre of crime on the voters at a time when it was overall as low as it had ever been.

This administration has given up our seat at the table for a LOT of modern discussion, and it's clear that many countries no longer look to the US for guidance because of it. Trump has made it quite clear that he doesn't look for alliances so much as limited partners who follow his lead in everything. These former friends will find their way with other allies, while Trump aligns us closer to the ruthless ideologies and agendas of Putin and Asaad. 

Tweeting is entertainment, like the news has become entertainment, all designed to keep you reading/watching/listening. When rational people present rational solutions that will produce better results for everyone, I think their voices are being drowned out because sometimes the smartest thing to do (and actually the most conservative) is boring, unentertaining, and ultimately un-clickworthy. Oh wow, folks are getting along, nobody starving, life better for all, it's all just so... uncontroversial.

Well said.

3 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

I think many Trump supporters have their own individual concept of "our own". I am not under the impression by "our own" they mean U.S. Citizens broadly. That is part of the reason they are so dismissive about Russia's interference in the Election. 

 

 

The only part most Trump supporters agree on which is their own, is their guns under the pillow or wherever. it's an insipid, psychological disorder of an entire nation, caused not without reason. The government has given plenty citizens to realize, they don't really care about us. We are the cattle, that bring in money, in death do us part. 

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he claimed he had a ''small loan'' which was actually a million pounds. it's evidence the man has no social understanding of the struggle. He (was) the UK's (almost analogue) of David Cameron who attacked the poor in britain and was documented, to loose many lives under his recent regime through the acts of suicide... people now, into the near thousand catagory. 

The world is sick to the bone. 

 

My country has problems, and while the politicians appear mostly right, they are not winning their ultimate agenda... and why? It's because our country does not have a limitation in the law systems like america has and continues to be inflicted by (plus) a faulty and antiquated legal system which appears to be... flexible, despite any fundamental amendments given to the people. 

 

Either Trump needs challenged, or the government does, for allowing him to violate your constitutional rights, in such a blatant and obvious culture of lawless in utter and upmost impunity. 

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To us mostly, because not trying to be big headed, but many nations look up to our tolerance for the expression of life, while in America, its being slowly taken away, but paradoxically, in an efficient manner. :(

I was supposed to move to america and I WANTED to become a politician, not to gain power, but whatever power I was landed with, i was going to make use to the people. But, it doesn't seem I will get across the pond this year. 

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yes. 

Do you want some examples?

We are the only country in the world, to be called great. 

Scotland, where I live, was recently considered the most tolerant place in the world for diversity.

 

Yet I am English, yet I am british. yet I am roman, scandinavian... where do we stop? :P

 

Oh and people from my region, are likely to have about 3% unknown correlations to genetic diversity, probably tribes that died out before any historical record.

my region = yorkshire originally

 

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2 minutes ago, Dubbelosix said:

We are the only country in the world, to be called great. 

We call ourselves Great- what does that say about us?

 

3 minutes ago, Dubbelosix said:

Scotland, where I live, was recently considered the most tolerant place in the world for diversity.

Rangers or Celtic?

 

It's certainly better than many, but it's not what it should be. The current govt is trying very hard to make it worse- Brexit is a case in point.

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neither, the idea of supporting rangers or celtic is akin to supporting burning at the stake or beheading the blameless. About time scotland woke up to the real struggle of the victorians. 

 

but hey back then, you could get a hold of all sorts of drugs, yet today, most of them are banned. Times change, and the world of sports will never go away, but it will mature over the next 100 years or more. 

Trump would make an excellent football stadium, riddle me why?

8 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

We call ourselves Great- what does that say about us?

.

Alexander the great, why was he called such?

In constrast, why was the first tsar of russia called the ''terrible''

Conflict the two, with their actions, and come back to me. 

Edited by Dubbelosix
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40 minutes ago, Dubbelosix said:

The government has given plenty citizens to realize, they don't really care about us. We are the cattle, that bring in money, in death do us part. 

Is it "the government", really? Or is it what the uber-wealthy who abuse the process for their gain have done to "the government"? 

Many governments have fantastic social programs that express how much the represented citizens care about themselves and each other. In Trump's US, it's becoming very clear "they really don't care about us", and are in the process of making themselves wealthier while taking it from the "us" they only claim to care about.

Repeal and replace with nothing. It's the Trump modus operandi.

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yes, the government was the root of initial conspiracy borne situations, yet those accusations held credible truth as the freedom act came into place.

The government hid the existence of the countries most advanced base testing only the most updated craft, in total secrecy... also known as area 51 and only in court they had been forced to admit its existence.

 

There have been contaminaton leaks, there has been an overcrowding of black people vs. white people in the a jail term... I know where america is heading... just the way of the old roman empire. It will fall because of an intrinsic instability, within the next 50 years as my upper limit 

These black budgets, I have estimated must come to about 20 billion in total. The governmnet has admitted about a fourth of those disappearances, and guess when... a day before the 9/11 attacks RIP. 

The government has even had secret programs in which they have infected some of their public. To determine whether intentional, is not an issue with me. I know it was. 

12 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Is it "the government", really? Or is it what the uber-wealthy who abuse the process for their gain have done to "the government"? 

Many governments have fantastic social programs that express how much the represented citizens care about themselves and each other. In Trump's US, it's becoming very clear "they really don't care about us", and are in the process of making themselves wealthier while taking it from the "us" they only claim to care about.

Repeal and replace with nothing. It's the Trump modus operandi.

and yet... very well said. I agree with the latter 100%

Edited by Dubbelosix
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1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

Is it "the government", really? Or is it what the uber-wealthy who abuse the process for their gain have done to "the government"? 

Many governments have fantastic social programs that express how much the represented citizens care about themselves and each other. In Trump's US, it's becoming very clear "they really don't care about us", and are in the process of making themselves wealthier while taking it from the "us" they only claim to care about.

Repeal and replace with nothing. It's the Trump modus operandi.

In fairness there are many uber-wealthy people who support many fantastic social programs: Warren Buffett, Laurene Powell Jobs, Bill Gates, Oprah Winfrey, Mike Bloomberg, John Kerry's wife in a billionaire, and etc, etc. Uber-wealthy people are not strictly conservative and all do not collude to corrupt governments. Billionaires like Elon Musk, Mark Cuban, Mark Zuckerberg, Tim Cook,and etc have all voiced their concerns about the current state of politics. 

Just as Republican have claimed to be the party of patriotism,  faith (Christian), fiscally responsible, hard work, families, and of course wealthy businessmen. Republicans claim these various labels and then proceed to use a litany stereotypes and straw-man talking points to define each. Republicans create caricature of what a successful business person is. That caricature is never that of a polite socially minded person interested in making the world a better place. It is always that of a alpha male jerk who knows that to succeed one must be crass, confident, and focused on winning at all cost. 

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1 minute ago, Ten oz said:

In fairness there are many uber-wealthy people who support many fantastic social programs: Warren Buffett, Laurene Powell Jobs, Bill Gates, Oprah Winfrey, Mike Bloomberg, John Kerry's wife in a billionaire, and etc, etc. Uber-wealthy people are not strictly conservative and all do not collude to corrupt governments. Billionaires like Elon Musk, Mark Cuban, Mark Zuckerberg, Tim Cook,and etc have all voiced their concerns about the current state of politics. 

In fairness, I don't include these people in my description of "the uber-wealthy who abuse the process for their gain". 

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7 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

It's as if there's a second clause that distinguishes those who "abuse the process for their gain". 

You really think the people listed don't abuse process for their own gain? You don't think Microsoft, Apple, Facebook, and others have been found doing unethical things, not just once, but on a repeated basis?

 

I'd suggest that many of them have abused process for their own gain - but (at least recently) in a way that many people here find amenable to their own goals (or not especially objectionable), especially in contrast to some other especially distasteful examples. 

Edited by uncool
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3 hours ago, uncool said:

You really think the people listed don't abuse process for their own gain? You don't think Microsoft, Apple, Facebook, and others have been found doing unethical things, not just once, but on a repeated basis?

It's a matter of degree, rather than absolute.

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4 hours ago, uncool said:

 

You really think the people listed don't abuse process for their own gain? You don't think Microsoft, Apple, Facebook, and others have been found doing unethical things, not just once, but on a repeated basis?

 

 

You need to define "abuse the process". In my post listed those who support social programs and separately listed others who have spoken out against the current state of affairs. I did not list anyone as perfectly ethical in all manner of circumstance. 

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