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Ten oz

Why doesn't truth matter & middle ground

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@ tar I asked you specific policy questions in a post above which you seem to have chosen to ignore. Instead you just continue to post about your feelings. If there is common ground to be had at some point we need to discuss actual policy. After all Trump and Congress are attempting to change policy: taxes, healthcare, NAFTA,TPP, and etc. Other than carrying on about supporting your president what actual policies do you support. What do you believe will be in the tax cut package coming out of the Senate? 

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18 minutes ago, tar said:

SwansonT,

half?

The point is, a president should not be against her citizens at all.

I heard a democrat official, talking about people that were in town to demonstrate for keeping the statues, like they were so evil as to not be allowed to exist.  

No matter what you or I think about David Duke or a group of students demonstrating for the right to display the confederate battle flag, they are citizens of this country and as long as they do not break any laws or hurt anyone, or interfere with anybody's civil liberties, they are allowed to exist in this country.

You can consider someone deplorable and still defend all of their rights (it's not hard — I'm doing it right now) and even help them when you act in the best interests of the country. One of the reasons we have laws is to protect citizens from the actions of others. That's not being "against" the people who do these things (e.g. murder, rape, steal)

White supremacy is incompatible with our constitution. You can be against that and not be "against" the citizens. It is the job of the president to stand up to injustice.

Quote

A president can not be against his or her population.  She cannot ask them to leave, because they do not measure up to her moral standards.

Regards, TAR

 

When did Hillary do that? You just making stuff up again?

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19 minutes ago, tar said:

The point is, a president should not be against her citizens at all.

Puerto Rico agrees. Black athletes agree. The anti-fascist movement agrees.

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20 minutes ago, tar said:

I saw a soda machine at the food counter at a movie house in Blacksburg, where no interaction with a person was required to by your drink.

What has this got to do with min wage? Automation has been increasing decades and decades.

 

20 minutes ago, tar said:

The woman on the plane with Trump did not say no.  She sat there for 15 or 20 minutes, not denying his advances.  Then got up and went back to her seat.  I saw the interview with her where she states this.   I think the incident happened, but I don't think it was without her consent.

That I do not know anything about...  and being honest,  doesn't really get my attention. It just sounds seedy. I don't care how many of your presidents get a quickie from their secretaries as long as it is consensual and wasn't implemented through harassment.

 

20 minutes ago, tar said:

Middle ground requires that one, in addition to protecting a woman from an abusive spouse, protects a non-abusive spouse from being destroyed by a questionable claim.

I agree here....  but if your wife goes to the extent of falsely accusing you of rape then I think the relationship is probably over by that stage anyway.  Any domestic abuse is hard to prove...

I was arrested once whilst going through my divorce for breaking a light socket in my living room (and a cat toy also). I also slammed the door on my way out and it caused a crack in the glass. I am not proud of these actions...  my wife wasn't even on the same floor of the building, but it was enough to be charged with wilful criminal damage apparently. :-(  I personally thought this was ridiculous, but then maybe I am biased. It was one of the hardest nights of my life....  but it doesn't excuse the abuse I showed to the light socket. My wife was terrified apparently - although I know she was totally safe, I suppose she did not know that.  I think I have repented enough for that discretion now. I was totally gob smacked by the serious the police took the incident...  it was as if I had beaten her or something, I thought my actions human in the circumstances (which I won't go into). I would never have hurt her physically at all and felt disgusted by the suggestion.

 

Right - I'm off - Have a good week end/thanksgiving.

Edited by DrP
sp.

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16 minutes ago, tar said:

 Since when does the  progression of the human race require sticking a penis in someone's ass hole?

The progression isn't about where you stick it, it's about tolerating other people's preferences for where they stick it or like it to be stuck.

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39 minutes ago, tar said:

The woman on the plane with Trump did not say no.  She sat there for 15 or 20 minutes, not denying his advances.  Then got up and went back to her seat.  I saw the interview with her where she states this.   I think the incident happened, but I don't think it was without her consent.

You posted this BS before and I called you out on it. You didn't cite your source back then, either.

Making stuff up is not acceptable

39 minutes ago, tar said:

 Sodemy is illegal some places, and was illegal some places where it is no longer.  Since when does the  progression of the human race require sticking a penis in someone's ass hole?

Since when is "progression of the human race" a prerequisite to engage in sex?

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3 hours ago, swansont said:

Making stuff up is not acceptable

Is anyone else struck by the irony of needing to tell someone that in this thread?

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You should be aware that comments like these:

On 11/18/2017 at 10:04 AM, tar said:

[You] call me a denier of fact because I actually face them and chose <sic> to use the resources of my planet to make myself employed, to fulfill my needs, before I worry about what resources will be left for people I don't know, after I am dead.

.

On 11/19/2017 at 8:41 AM, tar said:

what does it matter whether dire predictions raise the levels of the oceans 2 feet or 8 feet by 2000

 

On 11/19/2017 at 8:41 AM, tar said:

Neg 1 to you, for no particular reason.

 

On 11/19/2017 at 8:11 AM, tar said:

It is not "fair" to saddle me with the additional responsibility for other people's children.  Especially when others have not kept their families to replacement numbers.

 

On 11/20/2017 at 3:11 PM, tar said:

I will let you guys flail around in your own self righteous lies

 

On 11/21/2017 at 2:42 PM, tar said:

Yes it is getting warmer.  Yes the industrial age is the culprit. No we should not surrender our life style because of it.  

 

12 hours ago, tar said:

So the wife is mad I didn't take out the garbage, and she calls the police when I slip my hand down her pants.

 

12 hours ago, tar said:

Since when does the  progression of the human race require sticking a penis in someone's ass hole?

 

Don't exactly square with conclusions like these:

13 hours ago, tar said:

I am not, and never have been deplorable.

 

And that’s just in THIS thread so far. The case against your conclusion becomes even stronger upon a cursory search of your comments in other discussions. 

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13 hours ago, swansont said:

The thing is, the truly deplorable ones say the same thing. They just want to MAGA. They claim to be patriots. But we can see what their vision of "great again" is by their actions. Their vision is white, straight, and Christian (among other things), none of which is founded on the constitution, and how can one be a solid citizen if one rejects the tenets of the constitution?

They say the same thing about the supporters of Pauline Hanson in Australia but they obviously haven't looked into why she has been popular with poor people regardless of where they came from. If you want some hints (a) the left wing politician who took up her Ipswich City.Council seat in the late 90's has been charged with massive corruption (2) The state politician of the same left wing political party whose state electorate covered Pauline Hanson's federal electorate was convicted of molesting 3-6 primary school children between the ages of 9 and 11 who were in the school class he taught and (3) the state premier called a 'media tart' said after the convicted child molester was jailed that he "was still a mate of mine because he did all of that (child molesting) before he became a politician". That left wing political party has employed this ex state premier in $200K p.a. jobs for the past 10 years and the person who he handed the premiership reigns over to became the CEO of the Australian Bankers Association, go figure. 

The 'media tart' state premier introduced clause 8 of the Imperial Bill of Rights 1688 into our state constitution (unlike our federal constitution) that ensured that any state politician could not be prosecuted in any court outside parliament and introduced state legislation so that none of his MP's could be convicted inside parliament. It was called the 'Nuttal" law and was scrapped after the corrupt politician lost his seat and was charged and jailed for corruptly accepting $300,000 from a developer. But due to old mates in the pseudo left wing political party the corrupt politician was paid his entire superannuation of around $1.5 million and his mates only got back the $300,000 that he'd been paid corruptly, GO FIGURE????????

And if you want to get more constitutional the same right wing political party masquerading as a left wing political party brought the status of constitutional arrangements between the commonwealth and the states into conformity with the commonwealth of Australia being an independent, sovereign and federal nation, in their own legislation, without seeking constitutional approval from the people, and then proceeded to sell off most of our nations public assets. 

So being called a deplorable is much preferable to actually being a witless supporter of a right wing political party that prefers to BULLY the people who no longer support it because they won't get rid of the slimy filth that has corrupted the party to its very essence. If you can't get your head around why a left wing person would support someone who the majority of the media thinks is the devil you aren't looking close enough.

Edited by LaurieAG
clarity

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On 11/23/2017 at 7:54 AM, swansont said:

The thing is, the truly deplorable ones say the same thing. They just want to MAGA. They claim to be patriots. But we can see what their vision of "great again" is by their actions. Their vision is white, straight, and Christian (among other things), none of which is founded on the constitution, and how can one be a solid citizen if one rejects the tenets of the constitution?

That's an interesting take on MAGA. 

I think when most people think of times when America was great, it was a time when any person putting forth reasonable effort could materially improve their life.  Times when acquiring and maintaining a middle class life style was achievable by most.  I think most would also agree that to make America greater still that "most" should not exclude people due to race, sex, sexual orientation, gender status, religion, or national origin. 

So to make america great again all we really need is a growing economy.  An economy that produces  jobs that a person with a 12th grade education can get and work their way up to the middle class. Like people can do whenever America is great.  

Perhaps my explanation of MAGA is why the slogan was so effective.  Perhaps it also explains why people with blue collar backgrounds in places like Wisconsin and Michigan  voted for the candidate using the MAGA slogan, taking about factory jobs, and renegotiating trade agreements.  

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10 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

Perhaps it also explains why people with blue collar backgrounds in places like Wisconsin and Michigan  voted for the candidate using the MAGA slogan, taking about factory jobs, and renegotiating trade agreements.  

Wisconsin was targeted by Russians.  Renegotiating trade agreements involves actually negotiating trade agreements, not declaring getting the shit end of the stick.

Trump already reneged on the softwood lumber deal from Canada. I hope you enjoy your big government adding surcharges to softwood lumber and pocketing the money while you pay 30% more to build a house.

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35 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

That's an interesting take on MAGA. 

I think it's rather mundane.

Quote

I think when most people think of times when America was great, it was a time when any person putting forth reasonable effort could materially improve their life.  Times when acquiring and maintaining a middle class life style was achievable by most. 

For most people, it harkens back to when they were kids, or young adults, and things seemed fine because they simply weren't aware of what was going on. Plus, we forget the bad stuff more easily. Life back then wasn't as great as we remember.

https://www.elitedaily.com/life/culture/good-ol-days-lie-us-will-tell/850396
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/11349364/Why-we-yearn-for-the-good-old-days.html

Quote

I think most would also agree that to make America greater still that "most" should not exclude people due to race, sex, sexual orientation, gender status, religion, or national origin. 

And you don't see the gross inconsistency of this statement with the one that precedes it?

You can't go back to what was before, because it excluded people on those bases. Things were never great for a lot of people, so hoe can things be great again?

Quote

So to make america great again all we really need is a growing economy.  An economy that produces  jobs that a person with a 12th grade education can get and work their way up to the middle class. Like people can do whenever America is great.  

And what are the details of such an economy, and do we actually have the capability of achieving it? The kind of job you can get with only a high-school diploma is relatively unskilled labor. We don't have the kind of manufacturing jobs here as much, because companies have moved those jobs to where it's cheaper, or they have become automated. What's left is flipping burgers for minimum wage.

Is minimum wage going to get you into the middle class? No, not even close. 

Quote

Perhaps my explanation of MAGA is why the slogan was so effective.  Perhaps it also explains why people with blue collar backgrounds in places like Wisconsin and Michigan  voted for the candidate using the MAGA slogan, taking about factory jobs, and renegotiating trade agreements.  

If so, it was effective because people believe it, even though it isn't true. The Pacific countries just negotiated a trade agreement that excludes us, because of Trump. His "renegotiation" was to just pull out of it. Coal isn't coming back. Manufacturing isn't coming back. The proposed tax bill makes it even friendlier to move jobs out of the US.

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3 hours ago, waitforufo said:

That's an interesting take on MAGA. 

I think when most people think of times when America was great, it was a time when any person putting forth reasonable effort could materially improve their life.  Times when acquiring and maintaining a middle class life style was achievable by most.  I think most would also agree that to make America greater still that "most" should not exclude people due to race, sex, sexual orientation, gender status, religion, or national origin. 

So to make america great again all we really need is a growing economy.  An economy that produces  jobs that a person with a 12th grade education can get and work their way up to the middle class. Like people can do whenever America is great.  

Perhaps my explanation of MAGA is why the slogan was so effective.  Perhaps it also explains why people with blue collar backgrounds in places like Wisconsin and Michigan  voted for the candidate using the MAGA slogan, taking about factory jobs, and renegotiating trade agreements.  

Good post, and I basically agree. I think you and I had it much better due to circumstances of birth, and that's one reason we thought life was great and we were able to flourish. Many didn't get the opportunities we did, and so we both know the system has not been fair and evenly administered to include "people due to race, sex, sexual orientation, gender status, religion, or national origin".

One part that's open to interpretation is "all we really need is a growing economy". To me, I can't get around having middle class wages decoupled from productivity. It's like trying to complete an underfunded project, or put a puzzle together when you're missing a third of the pieces. Your "reasonable effort" to materially improve one's life becomes unreasonable at that point, because the workers have provided the work, and they have maintained the productivity that the company needs to flourish, but they aren't being paid the wage rates they had before the Nixon administration. Since their money now goes to the top 1%, I don't think you're ever going to see "acquiring and maintaining a middle class life style" as achievable as it should be for such a prosperous nation. 

And don't forget that letting the billionaires decide how ALL OUR PUBLIC FUNDS are spent has gotten us to our present predicament, where reasonable actions like the ones you suggest are being opposed left AND right. We should all be wiser now, and not fall for the whole deregulate-the-banks-and-all-will-be-well scam. Didn't we have some economic problems over this recently?

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18 minutes ago, rangerx said:

Wisconsin was targeted by Russians. 

Okay, that one right there just made my day. Thanks.

19 minutes ago, rangerx said:

Trump already reneged on the softwood lumber deal from Canada. I hope you enjoy your big government adding surcharges to softwood lumber and pocketing the money while you pay 30% more to build a house.

I own my house.

9 minutes ago, swansont said:

I think it's rather mundane......

Just quoting the above to provide a response to your entire tirade.  

First, you should give optimism a try.  If your are trying to further your political causes, pessimism is a downer and wins over few converts.

Second, all that nonsense about nostalgic childhood memories is simply BS.  I have lived in America during prosperous times as an adult.  I had my own children during that time. Jobs were so plentiful that finding a new job with a pay raise took about a week.  Living in that time is primary reason for my success in life.  I'd like my kids to see that kind of prosperity and experience the positive effects it has on their lives.  Their is no reason that the people in the US can't bring forth prosperity again.  

I don't know what country you live in but people with 12th grade educations frequently make it into the middle class in the US.  I know them.  I have many in my own extended family.  I know their friends too.  I go hunting and fishing with them.  America simply wouldn't be great without people like that.  How did the Democratic party forget that.  Did they really think they could stop worrying about uneducated white people?  That was the derogatory term they used for them wasn't it?  

No I don't see any inconsistency in my previous post.  Very few Americans want to live in a country of hate and violence  All Americans want to see opportunities for everyone.    

 

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The whole premise that America is getting screwed on trade is absolute nonsense.

By virtue of that, re-entering any negotiation is from a position of bad faith... not strength.

Let's go down the list, starting with oil. Oil is set by a world price. Canada produces, but does not refine tar sand. We sell it in crude form and America refines it. Canada does not refine it. How can America expect to renegotiate what is already an industrial and economic advantage? There's a lot of pressure from Canadians to refine their own oil. Actually, I prefer Texas refines it, you can have the pollution that goes with it. I won't mind if we refine it in Alberta because that will create jobs and reduce costs for Canadians, thus eliminating threats to the public environment from tar sand spilling in remote or occupied places.

How about water? Trump wants to renegotiate the Columbia River deal. Fine. We close the dams. Let's talk (in the same language America talks to Mexico, it is NAFTA after all). Like the Colorado, you get nothing. We won't let you go thirsty though. Like your health care system, we'll provide access to retail water sources. You'll have many choices of different kinds of water from producers in many provinces.

Hydro electric power. Canada produces sells it to California below cost. Fine. Brown out the west coast while we talk. Better get on that coal thing America ... greatness ensues.

Agriculture. American cattle ranches and commodity farms are hugely subsidized. It's about time we talk about America's greatest socialist double standard. Ranching, pooling and leasing.

Television, movies and entertainment. Canada will drop the tax havens for producers and drop them from the satellites and program guides. American stadiums are highly subsidized, where in Canada they are not. That would certainly end the National Hockey League as we know it and all the jobs that go with it.

Border security. Close the border. Americans entering Canada must be vetted... extremely. Visas only, applied for in advance.

From a world view and if not belligerent, complaining about the fairness of the race while currently in the lead is a rather stupid position to take.
 

Have we arrived at the "if we want it, we'll just take it" part now?

21 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

I own my house.

But you don't mind your kids or employees or friends or neighbors paying 30% more though for their opportunity?

A house and property is probably the single most equitable investment the average citizen undertakes.

That's not great, that's highway robbery on mass scale.

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55 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

I don't know what country you live in but people with 12th grade educations frequently make it into the middle class in the US. 

Just not frequently enough for some of us, based on us supposedly being great and all.

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58 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

I don't know what country you live in but people with 12th grade educations frequently make it into the middle class in the US. 

Not nearly as often as those whose parents could afford better education.

 

The idea of the "American dream" is just that- it's a dream.

The real figures are more depressing.
"One study (“Do Poor Children Become Poor Adults?")[18][16][25] found that of nine developed countries, the United States and United Kingdom had the lowest intergenerational vertical social mobility with about half of the advantages of having a parent with a high income passed on to the next generation."

from

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_mobility_in_the_United_States#Popular_perception

 

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1 hour ago, waitforufo said:

Okay, that one right there just made my day. Thanks.

rangerx made statement of fact. Both WI's voting infrastructure and citizens were targeted. Do you have something to add or are you just trolling?

 "This afternoon, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security notified the Wisconsin Elections Commission for the first time that “Russian government cyber actors” unsuccessfully targeted the state’s voter registration system in 2016. WEC Administrator Michael Haas has informed WEC Chair Mark Thomsen, who directed Commission staff to investigate why election officials were not notified earlier and report to the Commission at its meeting Tuesday."

http://elections.wi.gov/node/5253

 

A number of Russian-linked Facebook ads specifically targeted Michigan and Wisconsin, two states crucial to Donald Trump's victory last November, according to four sources with direct knowledge of the situation.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/03/politics/russian-facebook-ads-michigan-wisconsin/index.html

 

1 hour ago, waitforufo said:

I have lived in America during prosperous times as an adult.  I had my own children during that time. Jobs were so plentiful that finding a new job with a pay raise took about a week.  Living in that time is primary reason for my success in life. 

When was this and how can you quantify it? Unemployment numbers and GDP is the way I generally have seen health of the U.S. economy measured. What can you empirically tell us about this prosperous time you are referencing?

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16 hours ago, waitforufo said:

 First, you should give optimism a try.  If your are trying to further your political causes, pessimism is a downer and wins over few converts.

Optimism doesn't put food on the table.

16 hours ago, waitforufo said:

Second, all that nonsense about nostalgic childhood memories is simply BS. 

What peer-reviewed research can you point to that shows it to be BS? Or is it that it needs to be BS because it disagrees with your narrative?

16 hours ago, waitforufo said:

I have lived in America during prosperous times as an adult.  I had my own children during that time. Jobs were so plentiful that finding a new job with a pay raise took about a week.  Living in that time is primary reason for my success in life.  I'd like my kids to see that kind of prosperity and experience the positive effects it has on their lives.  Their is no reason that the people in the US can't bring forth prosperity again.  

I asked about the economic conditions necessary to "bring forth prosperity again" and you've replied with an anecdote about the past. You have a narrative, not an argument. Not that I'm surprised.

16 hours ago, waitforufo said:

I don't know what country you live in but people with 12th grade educations frequently make it into the middle class in the US.  I know them. 

How many 20-somethings do you know with a 12th grade education who have made it into the middle class? What do they do for a living?

The discussion is about the present and future, not the past.

16 hours ago, waitforufo said:

I have many in my own extended family.  I know their friends too.  I go hunting and fishing with them.  America simply wouldn't be great without people like that.  How did the Democratic party forget that.  Did they really think they could stop worrying about uneducated white people?  That was the derogatory term they used for them wasn't it?  

I think, upon closer examination, you will find that the GOP cares far less about education, except a means to enrich themselves. (see: current Secretary of Education, proposed tax legislation)

16 hours ago, waitforufo said:

No I don't see any inconsistency in my previous post.  Very few Americans want to live in a country of hate and violence  All Americans want to see opportunities for everyone.    

All Americans, huh? I did Nazi that coming. 

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1 hour ago, swansont said:

Optimism doesn't put food on the table.

Rather like all the Brexit campaigners in the UK who, when the complexities and costs of Brexit are raised, just tell people not to be so negative. "It will all be great". Well, maybe it will be but that doesn't mean we don't have to solve all the problems first.

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52 minutes ago, Strange said:

Rather like all the Brexit campaigners in the UK who, when the complexities and costs of Brexit are raised, just tell people not to be so negative. "It will all be great". Well, maybe it will be but that doesn't mean we don't have to solve all the problems first.

A lot of people believe positive thinking can transform reality. From Oprah to Trump many famous people have comment on the power of positive thinking. Like with anything though application and moderation is critical. Positive thinking in terms of confidence and aggressive pursuit of one's own beliefs can successfully help an individual to attain wealth. That is a uniquely individual goal (personal wealth) however and positive thoughts only anecdotally work. There are a lot of wealthy negative Nancy's out there. Ultimately more than confidence is required to solve problems. 

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Indeed. Optimism can drive people to work out solutions to difficult problems, but it isn't a replacement for action (as some Brexiters seem to think).

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3 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Positive thinking in terms of confidence and aggressive pursuit of one's own beliefs can successfully help an individual to attain [x].

If you substitute most other common pursuits for "wealth", there is usually an altruism present that makes the "aggressive pursuit" more like persistence on a virtuous quest. Most of us aren't consumed by greed; we'd like to have just enough money so that money isn't a worry. We know great wealth isn't what makes most people happy.

But some are obsessed with making money the same way all of us can be obsessed with things we're good at. For them, wealth is a treasure hunt they will win no matter what. And since personal wealth is such an influential metric in our society, we need to be extra vigilant about not letting the extremists get hold of our leadership processes and manipulate them with the extra money they've taken from those below them with their "no matter what" tactics. The middle ground also represents the foundation of the structure these extremists demand to sit atop.

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33 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

 Most of us aren't consumed by greed; we'd like to have just enough money so that money isn't a worry. 

 

And therein lies the problem, where do we draw the line? When is enough, enough? 

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23 hours ago, waitforufo said:

First, you should give optimism a try. 

Optimism is the reason why this site gets littered with people putting forward ideas that are known to be impossible- and to continue to do so- even after they are told it's hopeless.

Optimism wastes your time chasing perpetual motion machines; pessimism is what gives you the laws of thermodynamics.

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