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Moreno

A safe propane storage?

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Is it possible to store propane in some kind of adsorbent to make its use completely safe? In my understanding this is a safety issues which prevent wide use of propane as a motor fuel? Will it reduce its volumetric energy density? How long time will it take to soak adsorbant with propane?

Edited by Moreno

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39 minutes ago, swansont said:

Adsorbant or absorbant?

Whatever is more suitable. Both adsorbants and absorbants can be used to store substances. Read difference in wikipedia.

 

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Why LPG is so unpopular in majority of countries as a motor fuel? Because of safety problems?

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The same reason that many fuels (including electricity) is unpopular.

Not many garages supply it,, so it is easy to run out.

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13 hours ago, studiot said:

The same reason that many fuels (including electricity) is unpopular.

Not many garages supply it,, so it is easy to run out.

What prevents government incentives to make all garages supply it and make all cars bi-fuel? Or even completely transfer from gasoline to LPG?

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21 minutes ago, Moreno said:

What prevents government incentives to make all garages supply it and make all cars bi-fuel? Or even completely transfer from gasoline to LPG?

Lack of funding, lack of interest, special interests, economics, politics, inertia...

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On ‎11‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 8:23 AM, zapatos said:

Lack of funding, lack of interest, special interests, economics, politics, inertia...

So, you believe that safety issues is not a problem at modern stage of tech.?

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10 minutes ago, Moreno said:

So, you believe that safety issues is not a problem at modern stage of tech.?

Safety is always an issue no matter what you're doing, but I agree with Zap that it's not the primary limitation here. I've got a giant LP tank (a few thousand gallons) buried a few feet from my front door. I've got a smaller one in the garage, another on the deck...

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iNow nailed it and thank you.  Propane tanks can now be manufactured specifically for underground direct burial installations.  Expensive but nice.  The long on going concern with propane is that the gas is heavier than air and will seek out low spots to accumulate waiting for an explosive mixture with the atmosphere and a handy ever present ignition source, whatever that source may be.  Basements beckon badly.  Boom.

As already known the storage age life of propane is near indefinite.  Perfect for long term continuous use or for emergency backup.  Many gasoline and diesel engines can be manufactured to run efficiently on propane.  Generators.  Water pumps.  Whatever.  Kitchen appliances also.  Water heaters.  Space heaters.  Clothes dryers.  Emergency or dedicated propane lighting.  Automotive uses.  Even motorcycles.  Drones?  Dunno that.

Retired Fire Service

Edited by HB of CJ

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LPG is an asphyxiant gas.@HB of CJ is correct; LPG is denser than air (it's commonly known as a seeker), it will sit at the lowest point. LPG in the UK must be stored in a secure area that cannot be tampered with, also LPG tanks must be a certain distance away from residential properties to protect the public in event of an explosion. LPG tanks located underground will allow the earth to absorb some of the blast should it ignite (remember the gas is explosive, not the liquid). It worth noting that LPG is not toxic and won't poison you, however, it is an asphyxiant and will suffocate you. LPG evaporates at -42 degree and will cause frostbite should it get on your skin, therefore, handle carefully.

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6 minutes ago, Moreno said:

How much safer would LPG become if we will soak some sponge with it? 

It won't.

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2 hours ago, studiot said:

It won't.

Why not? I though that been stored in an absorbent it would less likely leak and ignite and also pressure needed for the storage could be reduced.

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1 hour ago, Moreno said:

Why not? I though that been stored in an absorbent it would less likely leak and ignite and also pressure needed for the storage could be reduced.

Is a petrol soaked rag (any more) difficult to ignite?

Remember that the L in LPG stands for liquid (under high pressure)
but when you use it, you expand it (a great deal) to a gas.
So a bottle of LPG takes up much less space than the gas in it under more normal pressure.
If it was absorbed in a sponge, what would happen to the sponge (or any sponge) under pressure?

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1 hour ago, studiot said:

Is a petrol soaked rag (any more) difficult to ignite?

Remember that the L in LPG stands for liquid (under high pressure)
but when you use it, you expand it (a great deal) to a gas.
So a bottle of LPG takes up much less space than the gas in it under more normal pressure.
If it was absorbed in a sponge, what would happen to the sponge (or any sponge) under pressure?

A sponge can be a rock-hard zeolite. Surface tension may prevent LPG leak out and lack of oxygen inside of it may prevent it to explode even during a strike. 

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1 hour ago, Moreno said:

A sponge can be a rock-hard zeolite. Surface tension may prevent LPG leak out and lack of oxygen inside of it may prevent it to explode even during a strike. 

How do you get the LPG out then?

You didn't answer either of my questions.

 

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13 minutes ago, studiot said:

How do you get the LPG out then?

You didn't answer either of my questions.

 

Either it can be stored under small pressure like gasoline vapors in a regular gas tank, or some physical effects can be used to make it heat up and expend a bit, similar to passing electric current through a wire.

Edited by Moreno

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Since you don't want to answer my questions, whilst I answer yours, this is not a discussion.

I am out of here.

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LPG's low boiling point is the main problem. Requires that pressure to keep it a liquid.

If it boils and if your tank doesn't/can't deal with the pressure increase, the tank ruptures. Then LPG can have it's fun filled playdate with Oxygen.

Edited by Endy0816

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On ‎11‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 5:46 PM, Endy0816 said:

LPG's low boiling point is the main problem. Requires that pressure to keep it a liquid.

If it boils and if your tank doesn't/can't deal with the pressure increase, the tank ruptures. Then LPG can have it's fun filled playdate with Oxygen.

There are claims that storing methane in adsorbed state allows to reduce pressure quite a lot preserving the same energy density (by volume).

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep33461

Is the same true about propane? I think it should be even easier as pressures of LPG are typically much lower than that of CNG.

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Not sure what would happen to the adsorbent when you go and apply heat to release the propane. Personally I am more familiar with the use of adsorbents in air purification. You'd probably want to look at cost and lifespan to see how they might stack up.

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20 hours ago, Endy0816 said:

Not sure what would happen to the adsorbent when you go and apply heat to release the propane. Personally I am more familiar with the use of adsorbents in air purification. You'd probably want to look at cost and lifespan to see how they might stack up.

I think propane can be stored in adsorbent at low pressure, something like 1 bar. I think it could be sufficient to create constant supply to the engine. 

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It seems we need "Schroedinger's" absorbent.
It needs to trap the propane when there's a leak, but release it when we want to use it.

 

Good luck.

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Our plant in Indiana used Propane in winter when natural gas supplies were curtailed. Two 30,000 gallon tanks of it. A sudden "cold snap" resulted in a noticeable slow-down of the boilers' output, then cessation. Determined the "propane" was freezing in piping connecting the tanks to the plant building. Subsequent investigation determined that the LPG supplier routinely blended BUTANE with the PROPANE, as it was less expensive. The customer normally never knew........until his pipes froze with the much higher freezing-point butane! 30 degrees F.

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