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When is the time?


dimreepr
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Whilst I can see the need for a limited supply of certain types of gun in a country like the USA, I can't see the need for widespread availability of military automatic weapons.

Proper control of these would be a  very good start.

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The title asks when; honest answer is no time in the foreseeable future. While adoration for guns alone isn't a good excuse it is the one tens of millions ardently feel/use. There is no good reason for believing man has only existed for 10,000 years or that there was a global flood yet people have faith in that stuff anyway. Ultimately passion defies reason. People have accepted amongst themselves in a tribal manner that the their heritage and the very notion of liberty itself is fundamentally associated with unrestricted access to guns. I makes no f#$&'in sense to me but is the case none the less.

Edited by Ten oz
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20 hours ago, Ten oz said:

The title asks when; honest answer is no time in the foreseeable future. While adoration for guns alone isn't a good excuse it is the one tens of millions ardently feel/use. There is no good reason for believing man has only existed for 10,000 years or that there was a global flood yet people have faith in that stuff anyway. Ultimately passion defies reason. People have accepted amongst themselves in a tribal manner that the their heritage and the very notion of liberty itself is fundamentally associated with unrestricted access to guns. I makes no f#$&'in sense to me but is the case none the less.

2

I agree with your analysis on the whole but "no time in the foreseeable future." I think you're wrong here. People like you are the answer, Americans that have enough intelligence to see the ridiculous and self-destructive nature of the current status quo, and the eloquence to explain why; all you've got to do is resist the urge to accept the futility of doing something. I'm not suggesting it'll happen overnight but the cultural shift is happening now and if enough people stand up it may even be the next generation but if it's the one after that or the one after that, surely it's worth the effort?

22 hours ago, studiot said:

Whilst I can see the need for a limited supply of certain types of gun in a country like the USA, I can't see the need for widespread availability of military automatic weapons.

Proper control of these would be a  very good start.

Indeed, a simple ban on automatic weapons would make an immeasurable difference, imagine how many lives could have been saved if he had to manually reload, or even recock? 

Edited by dimreepr
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I see no legitimate reason why anyone would need more than a three-shot magazine with manual recocking:

It gives the hunter three chances, and the delayed repeat shots, give the prey, at least a chance.  

It gives the hunted a chance to scare off the threat and back it up with a legitimate threat and two chances.

It gives the injured, no more than, three chances to exact revenge.

 

Edited by dimreepr
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On 10/2/2017 at 9:15 AM, studiot said:

Whilst I can see the need for a limited supply of certain types of gun in a country like the USA, I can't see the need for widespread availability of military automatic weapons.

Proper control of these would be a  very good start.

 

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Indeed, a simple ban on automatic weapons would make an immeasurable difference, imagine how many lives could have been saved if he had to manually reload, or even recock? 

It is legal to own fully automatic weapons in the US under the National Firearms Act of 1934, as long as it is registered with ATF (with $200 tax that goes with it). However, the registry was closed in 1986, meaning no fully automatic firearms made after 1986 can be registered. To obtain one legally, you'd have to find a legal owner and convince the current owner to sell it to you. The limited supply means you'd have to pay a hefty sum. The other way would be to obtain a Federal Firearms License and have a law enforcement agency request you get a post '86 dealer's sample (any fully automatic weapon made after 1986) so that the law enforcement agency can evaluate the weapon for possible use.

In other words, it is very rare for anyone to obtain a legal fully automatic weapon, as they are not readily available on the market -- even if legal. Media pundits often confuse semi-automatic weapons and full automatic weapons, so it's important to remember to note the difference. Semi-autos fire one round per trigger pull, then divert some of the gas produced to eject casing and load another round. With full autos, pressing and holding the trigger results in the gun firing until it runs out of ammunition.

Having said that, semi-autos can be modified and converted into full autos. You can also obtain parts of a fully automatic weapon off the darknet and assemble it by watching a YouTube video -- it is actually very easy to do and doesn't require much expertise beyond basic ability to take apart and put stuff together.

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Saying "Now is not the time" because it's just after a mass shooting sounds kind-of reasonable.

But when your country averages about 1 mass shooting every day, you essentially rule out any discussion.
Was that the intention?
It's quite a neat ploy, but surely people will see through it.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/oct/02/america-mass-shootings-gun-violence

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1 hour ago, Sicarii said:

Having said that, semi-autos can be modified and converted into full autos. You can also obtain parts of a fully automatic weapon off the darknet and assemble it by watching a YouTube video -- it is actually very easy to do and doesn't require much expertise beyond basic ability to take apart and put stuff together.

There are gun control laws against converting semi-autos to fully automatic weapons.  Are you suggesting that gun control laws are broken?  

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8 hours ago, dimreepr said:

 I'm not suggesting it'll happen overnight but the cultural shift is happening now and if enough people stand up it may even be the next generation but if it's the one after that or the one after that, surely it's worth the effort?

Stacking the Supreme Court with the lifetime appointments of conservative judges is certain to make things worse, before they get better. Scalia's writing in "individual" pretty much rendered your constitution and gun laws as subjective to expansion when it suits them , yet unassailable to limitation when it doesn't.

That boils it down to law makers, who at this time show no willingness to protect the public from domestic terrorism.

2 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

There are gun control laws against converting semi-autos to fully automatic weapons.  Are you suggesting that gun control laws are broken?  

No. It's because the law isn't broad enough. The parts to convert semi-autos to fully automatic weapons are legally, widely available.

There's no practical need for them other than to make guns illegal. Why should anyone facilitate it? To protect you from tyranny?

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8 minutes ago, waitforufo said:

There are gun control laws against converting semi-autos to fully automatic weapons.  Are you suggesting that gun control laws are broken?  

I assume you're asking about how effective gun control laws are at preventing people from converting semi-autos to fully automatic weapons? Please clarify before I respond.

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13 hours ago, Sicarii said:

 

It is legal to own fully automatic weapons in the US under the National Firearms Act of 1934, as long as it is registered with ATF (with $200 tax that goes with it). However, the registry was closed in 1986, meaning no fully automatic firearms made after 1986 can be registered. To obtain one legally, you'd have to find a legal owner and convince the current owner to sell it to you. The limited supply means you'd have to pay a hefty sum. The other way would be to obtain a Federal Firearms License and have a law enforcement agency request you get a post '86 dealer's sample (any fully automatic weapon made after 1986) so that the law enforcement agency can evaluate the weapon for possible use.

In other words, it is very rare for anyone to obtain a legal fully automatic weapon, as they are not readily available on the market -- even if legal. Media pundits often confuse semi-automatic weapons and full automatic weapons, so it's important to remember to note the difference. Semi-autos fire one round per trigger pull, then divert some of the gas produced to eject casing and load another round. With full autos, pressing and holding the trigger results in the gun firing until it runs out of ammunition.

Having said that, semi-autos can be modified and converted into full autos. You can also obtain parts of a fully automatic weapon off the darknet and assemble it by watching a YouTube video -- it is actually very easy to do and doesn't require much expertise beyond basic ability to take apart and put stuff together.

I think you addressed your own concerns here. There are fully autiomatic guns in circulation and there are kits sold legally online that convert semi auto rifles to full auto. I ee no reason to speculate about the costs in calling the sale of such a weapon "rare". Private gun sales is a thriving business and how expensive something is or isn't is purely relative to how much a person has. Bugatti Veyrons are expensive but people are still buying them.

 

I use to work with a guy who built modification kits that converted AR-15 from semi to fully automatic as a side business. After Obama won re-election he and most of his sphere of gun enthusiats were convinced building, selling, or even owning such mods would become illegal. He often joked that is made no real sense that they were illegal already considering they are purely used to illegally outfit rifles. The demand grew so strong because people feared no laws were coming that the guy had to quit the job we shared and build kits full time. I haven't spoken to him since he quit but office gossip is that he made several million dollars selling kits like hot cakes in the following couple years and retired.

 

" The gun industry published a report saying it’s not only doing just fine, but has actually grown by 158% since 2008. The National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF), the trade association for firearms manufacturers, reported that the total economic impact of the firearms and ammunition industry in the U.S. increased from $19.1 billion in 2008 to $49.3 billion in 2015. The NSSF also reported that, in that same time period, the total number of full-time jobs related to gun making in the U.S. rose from about 166,000 to almost 288,000."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/frankminiter/2016/04/12/the-gun-industry-says-it-has-grown-158-since-obama-took-office/#3a45e3147f4e

 

It is very easy for someone to get their hands on guns and all the accessories to convert them into whatever. Gun laws, much like finance and tax laws, have been intentionally watered down and riddled with loop holes. Just as we see with marijuana and sanctuary cities (which is still federally illegal) simply having a law on the books somewhere is meaningless if those in power locally do not have the appetite to enforce those laws. There are many proud pro gun communities across the US of A which are constantly in court fighting the ATF, challanging federal law, and turning a blind eye to what people are doing with their firearms.

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14 hours ago, rangerx said:

Stacking the Supreme Court with the lifetime appointments of conservative judges is certain to make things worse, before they get better. Scalia's writing in "individual" pretty much rendered your constitution and gun laws as subjective to expansion when it suits them , yet unassailable to limitation when it doesn't.
That boils it down to law makers, who at this time show no willingness to protect the public from domestic terrorism.

3

A lot can change in 20 years...

15 hours ago, Sicarii said:

 

It is legal to own fully automatic weapons in the US under the National Firearms Act of 1934, as long as it is registered with ATF (with $200 tax that goes with it). However, the registry was closed in 1986, meaning no fully automatic firearms made after 1986 can be registered. To obtain one legally, you'd have to find a legal owner and convince the current owner to sell it to you. The limited supply means you'd have to pay a hefty sum. The other way would be to obtain a Federal Firearms License and have a law enforcement agency request you get a post '86 dealer's sample (any fully automatic weapon made after 1986) so that the law enforcement agency can evaluate the weapon for possible use.

Having said that, semi-autos can be modified and converted into full autos. You can also obtain parts of a fully automatic weapon off the darknet and assemble it by watching a YouTube video -- it is actually very easy to do and doesn't require much expertise beyond basic ability to take apart and put stuff together.

1

Why did you quote me, if all you want to post is the bloody obvious?

But since you have quoted me please answer, or at least address, my question; that's the polite thing to do.

14 hours ago, waitforufo said:

 Are you suggesting that gun control laws are broken?  

 

Hmmm, let me think... Is it ok to randomly shoot people? 

Edited by dimreepr
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