Mary (mother of Jesus) was not virgin

[nylianyesrora]

Why does the Catholic Church say that Mary was virgin? For two reasons: First, for the church does not divide its resources (marriage, divorce, etc.), and second, because priests believed that the sex was dirty. Maria was mother and had sex like any woman. Even Jesus had several brothers.

[DrKrettin]

It could just be an error in translation. The word used is parthenos, which actually means "unmarried woman" from which it is understood that the person was also a virgin in the biological sense. So when Matthew says "Ιδοὺ ἡ παρθένος ἐν γαστρὶ ἕξει καὶ τέξεται υἱόν", he might just have meant that she was unmarried. It could be that simple.

[John Cuthber]

1 minute ago, DrKrettin said:

It could just be an error in translation. The word used is parthenos, which actually means "unmarried woman" from which it is understood that the person was also a virgin in the biological sense. So when Matthew says "Ιδοὺ ἡ παρθένος ἐν γαστρὶ ἕξει καὶ τέξεται υἱόν", he might just have meant that she was unmarried. It could be that simple.

It could be that simple.

Except... she was engaged to be married- to Joseph, and they would have called her the equivalent of "betrothed" rather tan unmarried.

The Bible makes it clear that there's an "issue" (and a miraculous explanation).Luke 1:34

"

³⁴ “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”

³⁵ The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you."

 

[DrKrettin]

3 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

³⁴ “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”

 

She actually says "ἐπεὶ ἄνδρα οὐ γινώσκω", (I know not man) but then she would say that, wouldn't she?

[John Cuthber]

6 hours ago, DrKrettin said:

She actually says "ἐπεὶ ἄνδρα οὐ γινώσκω", (I know not man) but then she would say that, wouldn't she?

Yes and no.
 She probably didn't speak Greek, but it's the sort of thing someone would say.
Google translates it as "and I grew up", which is interesting.

[Endy0816]

Think you could make the case 'virgin' was only referring to the first birth. Whether she was in fact a virgin being a whole other can of worms.

At least doesn't involve a swan, bull or 'golden shower'.

[DrKrettin]

There is what I find a very odd tradition where I live (Tenerife) which is part of Spain and strongly catholic. That is, every town and village has their own patron virgin, depicted as a wooden statue and given a name such as "Virgen de Candelaria", "Virgen de las Nieves", "Virgen del Carmen" etc. She is never called Mary, and the most notable one is black. The concept of a virgin birth is obviously an important one, and probably influenced by the history of the island, which was a stone-age society until 1492 when the Spanish turned up. 

[Handy andy]

All of this presupposes that a Mary or even Jesus existed. The only historical account of his existence I understand is from the historian Josephus and I understand it is thought to be a forgery added after the death of Josephus. The Jews have no record of his existence and understandably don't accept him as a person who lived never mind their saviour.

I understood also that the story in the bible had Jesus with older Brothers, and the reference to the Virgin meant the purity of mind of the mother Mary of the hypothetical Jesus, whose remains have never been found. Mary I understand also comes from the Egyptian word meaning beloved.

The official Catholic Church story is when Mary married Joseph she was 12 years old, so Jesus's older brothers may have been by another wife of Joseph who most likely wasn't a virgin when he married Mary if either of them ever existed, which appears very doubtful.https://www.quora.com/How-old-was-Mary-mother-of-Jesus-when-she-gave-birth-to-Jesus

There are various candidates put forward in history for the actual Jesus none of whom were born 25th December at 0AD.

Does anyone have actual historic proof that Jesus existed. I have never met anyone who can point to any historic proof.

In 325AD Emperor Constantine declared he existed, anyone disagreeing did not do very well. Almost all subsequent Popes have supported this view, except Pope Pious the ??? who stated the "Jesus Myth has served us well". If the current pope was to turn around and declare Jesus did not exist and was just a story, it would cause a stir but under the Roman Catholic Faith, the Pope like Emperor Constantine speaks for god on earth and Catholics would have to change their belief accordingly. 

Under the Islamic religion, Mohammed is a historic figure who had offspring, who perpetuated the various forms of Islam. I understand over 50% of the Quran which I have never read, because its written in Arabic is based on the story of Jesus.

 

 

Edited September 2, 2017 by Handy andy
added link and a bit of text

[DrKrettin]

41 minutes ago, Handy andy said:

Does anyone have actual historic proof that Jesus existed. I have never met anyone who can point to any historic proof.

 

What constitutes historical proof? All evidence we ever have that a particular person existed is in the form of historical documents and monuments. You can't have a simple boundary between "definitely existed" and "no evidence", all you can have is a sliding scale between "existence very highly likely" to "no evidence". Every historic character lies somewhere on that scale, and there is no clear dividing line between "proof" and "not enough proof".

Having said that, given the sparse evidence we do have, I suspect that it is indeed based on a person who actually existed, but that is merely my suspicion.

[Raider5678]

18 hours ago, nylianyesrora said:

Why does the Catholic Church say that Mary was virgin? For two reasons: First, for the church does not divide its resources (marriage, divorce, etc.), and second, because priests believed that the sex was dirty. Maria was mother and had sex like any woman. Even Jesus had several brothers.

Virgin birth for the first one, aka Jesus. Then it was two to tango form there on out.

 

Also, I've been a Christian my whole life and I've only ever heard "don't have sex outside marriage" as the rule for sex. Generally anything goes as long as it's your partner. And you're not killing people or anything.

Edited September 2, 2017 by Raider5678

[iNow]

19 hours ago, nylianyesrora said:

Why does the Catholic Church say that Mary was virgin? For two reasons: First, for the church does not divide its resources (marriage, divorce, etc.), and second, because priests believed that the sex was dirty. Maria was mother and had sex like any woman. Even Jesus had several brothers.

I disagree with your suggestions. The idea of sex being dirty comes from a desire to control the masses. We all are born with sex drives. It allowed our ancestors to survive. Control that and control the minds of the people around you. 

Instead, the church likely said Mary was a virgin to make their hero more familiar and acceptable to those they were attempting to convert, like the pagans.

Recall that like most religions, Christianity very often borrowed ideas from other existing mythologies and made them their own / repackaged them to increase the likelihood of successful conversion.

It should also be noted that virgin births / miraculous births are EXTREMELY common in hero stories: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miraculous_births

Edited September 2, 2017 by iNow

[John Cuthber]

It's easier to sell the idea that your group's "prophet" is special if they are not just " some bloke", but are a miracle in themselves- for example, because their birth was  miraculous.

Imagine you are a first century peasant looking at the religions and choosing one.

They all have some sort of "messiah". In most cases you know them and their family (at least slightly).
But in one case they are claiming that their father isn't just Mr Smith from along the road, but God Himself.
That's a hell of a "unique selling point".

 

My best guess is that all the successful "cults" had some sort of "special" leader and the mish-mash of those leaders which was stuck together like Frankenstein's monster and documented as the character we call Christ, included this very saleable trait.

 

[Handy andy]

10 hours ago, DrKrettin said:

What constitutes historical proof? All evidence we ever have that a particular person existed is in the form of historical documents and monuments. You can't have a simple boundary between "definitely existed" and "no evidence", all you can have is a sliding scale between "existence very highly likely" to "no evidence". Every historic character lies somewhere on that scale, and there is no clear dividing line between "proof" and "not enough proof".

Having said that, given the sparse evidence we do have, I suspect that it is indeed based on a person who actually existed, but that is merely my suspicion.

I suspect a lot of things, but this does not constitute proof, unless I am called as an expert witness.

When was the first historical monument to Christianity erected? Was there ever a statue produced depicting what Jesus or his mother looked like, prior to 322AD.

I was taught C of E (never ever believed) that the virgin birth and the existence of Jesus was intended to represent idealized people NOT Actual people that ever existed. I also learned religion is a tool that has nothing to do with the concept of god.  

A little known fact: The holy Roman empire in around 325 AD stopped crucifying people in respect of the new Christian religion and decided to pour molten lead down peoples throats  instead of crucifying them.