dimreepr Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 20 minutes ago, MigL said: Wow. This discussion went south rather quickly. I do feel bad for the sheep though. Don't sweat it Koti. The last resort of those losing an argument is name-calling and labelling. 1 LOL, do tell... 26 minutes ago, MigL said: "You don't agree with me, so you must be a hateful person, since I have inner peace" And the only argument ever presented, "Ignore it, and it will go away". You're welcome to provide a less hateful argument, though I doubt you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koti Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 14 minutes ago, Prometheus said: Well this is the crux of the matter. Why is it that adopting those Hadiths which prescribe the death penalty is the 'fullness' of Islam while those not prescribing any punishment is 'watered down' Islam. They are acknowledged as being the works of man, and therefore fallible (unlike the Quran). Following one Hadith rather than another is a matter of interpretation. I feel this is not a trivial point. Demonising all of Islam as evil slams the door shut on those mild Muslims who want to remain Muslim and see their religion co-exist peacefully with others: if all Islam is evil, it doesn't matter what Hadiths they follow, they are either evil or not true Muslims. This seems a sure way of further radicalising Islam and it has enough problems in that area already. The crux of the matter is why would we want to respect Islamic religion. Is it because some Hadiths say kill the apostates and some prescribe to no punishment like you point out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prometheus Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 1 minute ago, koti said: The crux of the matter is why would we want to respect Islamic religion. Is it because some Hadiths say kill the apostates and some prescribe to no punishment like you point out? It shouldn't be all or nothing. It's possible to respect some parts of it and not others. When i studied Islam the thing that struck me most was the complete acceptance and warmth with which they received a stranger - something a lot of Buddhist temples could learn from. This i can respect. But when it came time to learn the women were sent to the back of the room - so not to distract the men. This i cannot respect. I think making it all or nothing makes radicalisation easier. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten oz Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 4 minutes ago, koti said: The crux of the matter is why would we want to respect Islamic religion. Is it because some Hadiths say kill the apostates and some prescribe to no punishment like you point out? As an athiest I don't "respect" any religion. As a human I understand demagoguing large groups of people based on their beliefs is never useful. In my opinion that is the crux of the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koti Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 (edited) 59 minutes ago, MigL said: Wow. This discussion went south rather quickly. I do feel bad for the sheep though. Don't sweat it Koti. The last resort of those losing an argument is name-calling and labelling. "You don't agree with me, so you must be a hateful person, since I have inner peace" And the only argument ever presented, "Ignore it, and it will go away". Consider the argument won. I noticed how my upvote to your above post got immediately taken down. I also noticed how a couple of upvotes to my posts in this thread got taken down. Finally, I noticed that over a period of the last year I receive upvotes for random posts, sometimes they come in out of the blue for nothing. Its almost as if someone would encourage certain points of view or ideologies Edited August 8, 2017 by koti Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MigL Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 (edited) "demagoguing large groups of people based on their beliefs is never useful" Really ??? I don't think you really believe that. At least I've never seen you apply that mentality to 'Conservatives'. Wooop! Just hit 3000 posts. Gonna celebrate with a beer ! Edited August 8, 2017 by MigL 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koti Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 20 minutes ago, Prometheus said: It shouldn't be all or nothing. It's possible to respect some parts of it and not others. When i studied Islam the thing that struck me most was the complete acceptance and warmth with which they received a stranger - something a lot of Buddhist temples could learn from. This i can respect. But when it came time to learn the women were sent to the back of the room - so not to distract the men. This i cannot respect. I think making it all or nothing makes radicalisation easier. 17 minutes ago, Ten oz said: As an athiest I don't "respect" any religion. As a human I understand demagoguing large groups of people based on their beliefs is never useful. In my opinion that is the crux of the matter. Hey, I actually agree with both of you. I would only add that respect for anything or anybody should be earned. Now I'd like to hear your thoughts on what should I say to my friend from Riyadh whom I've known for 15 years when I talk to her next time. She's a medical doctor in her 40's. She's been raped for the first time at age 12 by her brother (a muttawa officer) Untill the age of 17 she was raped countless times by members of her family, a very respected Muslim family, a few of them were muttawi, some of them high ranked government officials. She managed to escape at 17 and find shelter for a month but was found by her family and welcomed home with some minor beating (it only took 3 months for her back to heal after the lashes she got) She's now living happily in Riyadh with her family where she belongs. She's a non believer btw. Do you guys think I could let her in on your revelations and cinvince her that Quran, Hadiths and the religius doctrine of Islam had nothing to do with her suffering? Or maybe I could help her feel better by pointing out that other religions are horrible too, that would surely bring a smile to her face. Gee, I wonder...maybe I'd tell her to talk to Dimreepr, he will surely convince her that her hate only breeds more hate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten oz Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 13 minutes ago, MigL said: "demagoguing large groups of people based on their beliefs is never useful" Really ??? I don't think you really believe that. At least I've never seen you apply that mentality to 'Conservatives'. Wooop! Just hit 3000 posts. Gonna celebrate with a beer ! Pointing out that the Conservatives in the U.S. support Trump (81% voted for Trump) is not demagoguing. It is accurately describing them. Less than one percent of Muslims are terrorists. Carrying on about the dangers of Islam based on what less than a single percent of Muslims do is demogoguing. The overwhelming majority of conservatives in the U.S. support Trump. That is a fact. It is not a fact to say the overwhelming majority of Muslim support terrorism, monarchies, dictatorships, and ect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koti Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 3 minutes ago, Ten oz said: Less than one percent of Muslims are terrorists. Carrying on about the dangers of Islam based on what less than a single percent of Muslims do is demogoguing. You just don't get it do you. I wonder how many lashes would it take for you to understand. I'm putting my bet on not more than 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prometheus Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 What do you say to anyone who has experienced such suffering and depravity? If i knew the words to take away such pain i'd never stop saying them. Why do you bring this up? Is any one denying such actions are reprehensible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten oz Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 10 minutes ago, koti said: You just don't get it do you. I wonder how many lashes would it take for you to understand. I'm putting my bet on not more than 10. What specific beliefs that you consider to be ones which lend themselves to whatever problematic politics in Saudi Arabia that the overwhelming majority of Muslims would all agree with? I understand that you are referencing the countries politics and not terrorism exclusively. However the govt of Saudi Arabia and Islam are not one in the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koti Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ten oz said: Less than one percent of Muslims are terrorists. Carrying on about the dangers of Islam based on what less than a single percent of Muslims do is demogoguing. 1 hour ago, koti said: You just don't get it do you. I wonder how many lashes would it take for you to understand. I'm putting my bet on not more than 10. Would it literally take the 10 lashes for you to understand that its not a terrorist who is beating you senseless but a God & Law abiding citizen of a religious regime? 1 hour ago, Ten oz said: What specific beliefs that you consider to be ones which lend themselves to whatever problematic politics in Saudi Arabia that the overwhelming majority of Muslims would all agree with? I understand that you are referencing the countries politics and not terrorism exclusively. However the govt of Saudi Arabia and Islam are not one in the same. I am neither refferencing politics nor do I need or want to shift this debate into including politics. Why is it that you cannot ackowledge that Islamic religious regimes are nothing but a nest of deviant hate and that not all religious doctrines are as toxic as Islam. Instead Swansont refferenced culture as the problem, Dimreepr refferenced my alleged lack of respect towards people and a bunch of hippy blisful "inner peace" crap not to mention sheep shagging, Manticore decided that I'm a Muslim hater and now you're going to shift this into politics, why? The way this is going, in a few posts you're going to blame climate change for the atrocities of Islam. Edited August 8, 2017 by koti Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten oz Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 On 8/7/2017 at 7:30 AM, koti said: Cultural implications in fundamentalist Islamic states are an effect of religion not the cause. I'm going to keep on mentioning Saudi's as I have first hand insight on this...everything there revolves around religion, culture is 100% saturated and caused by religion. On 8/7/2017 at 8:47 AM, koti said: Please provide evidence or at least a logical line of thought which leads to your assumption being remotely true in the case of Saudi's or any other conservative Islamic states. My line is this...I spent time with Saudi's, got to know them, participated in everyday life - every aspect of their culture is a derivative of religion. There aren't any aspects of their lives which are not directly controlled by religion. Starting from people sitting around in fast food places in malls acting like zombies communicating on blue tooth because it's not appropriate to talk in public and ending up in Muṭawwi acting like SS squads chasing innocent people down, throwing them in jail for ridiculous offences and/or cutting their hands of or publicly executing them. All of the cultural aspects are enforced by religious leaders, it's a religious regime period. Why is it so difficult for people to digest that? I live in a conservative Christian country, it doesn't get more conservative than Poland, the American south and a couple more places. Putting an equal sign between realities of conservative Christian countries and the conservative Islamic countries is just not right. 20 minutes ago, koti said: Would it literally take the 10 lashes for you to understand that its not a terrorist who is beating you senseless but a God & Law abiding citizen of a religious regime? I am neither refferencing politics nor do I need or want to shift this debate into including politics. You have been drawing connections between the politics (or would you prefer the word behavior) of various countries and Islam this whole thread yet accuse me of shifting the debate? That is needless posturing. If you said the form of Islam practiced by ISIS or some other specific regime were a negative influence I don't think a single poster here would disagree with you. Because the majority of ISIS members do adhere to specific values which are "derivative" of their beliefs. When you make it all of Islam which contains the potential that is where your point goes off the rails. Amongst all muslims there is not a major position and the horrors you list. As such you are blaming the majority for actions of a minority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koti Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 I have said all and more than I intended to and I'm still hitting a wall, I give up. I ackowledge that my views on religion and Islam specifically are firm if not extreme but on the other hand I do not see a reason for my views to be wrong or unjustful to anybody. I have Muslim friends, some of them are a big part of my life. People are people and fortunately we/me are able to find our way around the religious bullshit to interconnect with each other on other levels than religion. I think my life experiences shaped me, is it my sin? I don't think so. Should I subscribe to the rhetoric presented by majority of posters in this thread? Certainly not. Islam is a religion and a particularly toxic one - its not a person, its not a culture and it certainly is not politics. Islam interconnects with politics and culture, in some place less in some more. Islam takes various shapes in various places on earth, sometimes a less toxic shape sometimes a more toxic one, it is never completely harmless though. Does the fact that the majority of Muslims are not brutal freaks make their religious doctrine harmless? Most definitely not...and most certainly Islam with its toxic doctrines being implemented every day does not even deserve to be considered to be given respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypervalent_iodine Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 ! Moderator Note It is the opinion of staff that this thread has run its course, and thus should be closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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