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Producing a hierarchy of human life .


Mike Smith Cosmos
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10 hours ago, DrP said:

I have a 'pet' spider in my lab...  It was small a few months back... now it's getting BIG!   ........

.......This morning something interesting happened. I gave it a fly at the weekend...  when I came in this morning the husk of the fly was right in the middle of my note book on my desk! .............

.....Could it be that the spider views me as some kind of higher power or a provider? lol.   

 

 

Well that is quite interesting , I thought I was crazy enough , talking about the relationship I think I have with my fish . But with a spider , that's even more ...

... Progressive ...  You will have to keep me informed how it progresses! . 

 

May at be your feeding it regularly , as you say , is what is forging the relationship . 

I think that is what is happening with my fish ( cupboard love )  . They position themselves in a forward facing line , when I appear . Perhaps your spider will bring a mate along sometime ? 

 

Who or what is feeding me ? And what am I being fed? 

 

Mike 

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Interestingly I once tamed a nest of paper wasps, those big red mean bastards. Three consecutive generations of wasps allowed me to even touch them while they were on the nest. Food was the primary driver, they liked mealworms. Me being there on the porch a lot helped also. If wasps build a nest where people go by everyday and the people do not molest them they become habituated to your presence.  They were aware enough to know me from other people too. Horses will stand under a tree with a bald faced hornet nest so the hornets will eat the horse flies. I've managed to have hornets take flies out of my hands...

 

But I still don't see a hierarchy, I see a web of  cooperation. BTW Mike if that spiders bring her mate it will likely be a dried husk... 

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5 hours ago, Moontanman said:

 

But I still don't see a hierarchy, I see a web of  cooperation. BTW Mike if that spiders bring her mate it will likely be a dried husk... 

 

Hierachy -         Cooperation 

that is really  SEMANTICS  surely   ... https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=semantics+synonym&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari

I suppose I am trying to get a feel of where we are in the 'great scheme of things ? ' 

Are we at the top of the pile , or just one level in a HIERACHY ? I would like to feel there was the security of knowing , somehow the universe , as a whole , was in more capable hands than just us ' trashing ' humans ! 

 

Mike 

 

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10 hours ago, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

Hierachy -         Cooperation 

that is really  SEMANTICS  surely   ... https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=semantics+synonym&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari

I suppose I am trying to get a feel of where we are in the 'great scheme of things ? ' 

Are we at the top of the pile , or just one level in a HIERACHY ? I would like to feel there was the security of knowing , somehow the universe , as a whole , was in more capable hands than just us ' trashing ' humans ! 

 

Mike 

 

So basically you are searching for gods? 

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You could say that. 

Its not the way I would have put it .But there is a ring of truth in what you say. 

I am reasonably convinced there is a pattern of behaviour and response BETWEEN  THE HIERARCHIES.  I can clearly see the sort of malevolent behaviour and the beneficial behaviour, going on between Human Hierarchy and simple animal like fish . 

I /we can look for evidence ) without  pre-supppsed conclusions ( care to not be closed minds).for evidence of both ., malevolent and benifocial support from the potential hierarchy up from human . 

I believe there is sufficient evidence for both beneficial and districtive interference. 

 

Mike 

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5 hours ago, Moontanman said:

So basically you are searching for gods? 

Here is a picture I painted this afternoon in an Art Class . 

The proposed subject was to paint , " THEN THERE WAS LIGHT " in whatever form we wished . Some people did ' Sun rise , some did surreal sources of light , 

I did THE HIGGS BANG ,

as per recent article in the New Scientist 10th June 2017 , starting page 30  . Reading what is said and using this setting for 'the possible entry point of a ' God ' , like where would be the useful place to enter the scene , and where does any testimonial indicate it had to be by " such and such a time " . 

Clearly a single Higgs particle , could have been there all the time , or created somehow . The secret of the Universe and life , seems to incorporate DUPLICATION , followed by CONTINUING DUPLICATION .  That is a bright Idea if you want to make a Univese. ( as you can start with something small , modest , yet well designed such that it can duplicate ( over and over ) and not long before you end up with something the size of a Universe. Similarly with life when that enters the scene . 

So I think the good entry point of a God would be either before or just after the entry of the first HIGGS PARTICLE. 

It could not be much later than after the inflation that introduced the marble sized Higgs particle . As the growth of the Universe started at 13.72 Billion years ago ,

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=age+of+universe+in+years&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari

and not long into the cosmic expansion , ( 300,000 years along ,( from that start at 13.7 billion years ago )  the recombination event ( nucleus and electrons combine , and LIGHT ( Photons ) escape into the Universe . That was ( "and God said LET THERE BE LIGHT " ) . This is recorded in the Bible as a very early happening , and can be found on the first page of all these books all over the world . So if this was to be attributed to God there was a fairly brief period to make an entry . ( From first Higgs particle to first light ) . 

Here is my painting,

FIRST , inflation bunch of HIGGS particles on LEFT HAND SIDE of the painting . Up to marble size . 

SECOND  the RECOMBINATION ( protons and electrons ) with release of PHOTONS ( LET THERE BE LIGHT . ) On the RIGHT HAND SIDE . 

Materials first  , life to follow . 

image.thumb.jpeg.d799584ad880d6dd6b05ad5ff7b5d209.jpeg

 

mike 

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29 minutes ago, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

Here is a picture I painted this afternoon in an Art Class . 

The proposed subject was to paint , " THEN THERE WAS LIGHT " in whatever form we wished . Some people did ' Sun rise , some did surreal sources of light , 

I did THE HIGGS BANG ,

as per recent article in the New Scientist 10th June 2017 , starting page 30  . Reading what is said and using this setting for 'the possible entry point of a ' God ' , like where would be the useful place to enter the scene , and where does any testimonial indicate it had to be by " such and such a time " . 

Clearly a single Higgs particle , could have been there all the time , or created somehow . The secret of the Universe and life , seems to incorporate DUPLICATION , followed by CONTINUING DUPLICATION .  That is a bright Idea if you want to make a Univese. ( as you can start with something small , modest , yet well designed such that it can duplicate ( over and over ) and not long before you end up with something the size of a Universe. Similarly with life when that enters the scene . 

So I think the good entry point of a God would be either before or just after the entry of the first HIGGS PARTICLE. 

It could not be much later than after the inflation that introduced the marble sized Higgs particle . As the growth of the Universe started at 13.72 Billion years ago ,

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=age+of+universe+in+years&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari

and not long into the cosmic expansion , ( 300,000 years along ,( from that start at 13.7 billion years ago )  the recombination event ( nucleus and electrons combine , and LIGHT ( Photons ) escape into the Universe . That was ( "and God said LET THERE BE LIGHT " ) . This is recorded in the Bible as a very early happening , and can be found on the first page of all these books all over the world . So if this was to be attributed to God there was a fairly brief period to make an entry . ( From first Higgs particle to first light ) . 

Here is my painting,

FIRST , inflation bunch of HIGGS particles on LEFT HAND SIDE of the painting . Up to marble size . 

SECOND  the RECOMBINATION ( protons and electrons ) with release of PHOTONS ( LET THERE BE LIGHT . ) On the RIGHT HAND SIDE . 

Materials first  , life to follow . 

image.thumb.jpeg.d799584ad880d6dd6b05ad5ff7b5d209.jpeg

 

mike 

Seeing how I am a sceptic, atheist, and an apistevist, I simply cannot go where you are going without evidence...

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52 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Seeing how I am a sceptic, atheist, and an apistevist, I simply cannot go where you are going without evidence...

I am not sure I know what an apistevist is ,   however , evidence ....! Well that is interesting , because nobody else is standing up and saying " well I did it " ! 

The inflationary expansion from One Higgs particle ... The New scientist has this to say  

QUOTE

 " They  say it started with a bang , but in truth it misfired. The Universe began as a hot speck of energy, and for an instant remained just that. Then it blew up : from this initial seed, trillions upon trillions of times smaller than an atom , everything suddenly ballooned into the gargantuan proportions of a TIC TACK . IN A MERE FRACTION OF A SECOND, THE UNIVERSE EXPANDED BY AS MANY ORDERS AS MAGNETUDE , AS IT WOULD IN THE FOLLOWING 13.8 billion years. 

Believe it or not this burst of cosmological inflation , followed by a tamer expansion , is the most sensible way to explain how the Universe looks today . But there's something missing : what did the inflating ?  

UNQUOTE  ***

Good SIGNAL for a GOD TO ENTRE .... ( with a big bag of energy and inertia ) .

" work with a speck of energy trillions upon trillions SMALLER THAN AN ATOM " , I would have a go with something that small ? ( maybe if I could find it ?  And make it duplicate a few times , ( remember the multiply X 2  a few times , fold a large sheet of paper 45 times and it will reach the moon  )  see ps below 

 

MIKE 

***  page 31 NEW SCIENTIST  10 June 2017 

ps. I do appreciate , it would take a bit of getting that initial  Higgs particle just right for duplicating automatically . However you have had all of the previous eternity to think about it at length , before pressing the " go " button. 

 

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7 hours ago, Area54 said:

Speculation with minimal evidence is fine for writing fantasy stories. It is delinquent application of intellect when it is used to justify a worldview.

I was trying to give the story of the Universe , which must have both a scientific content as well as a ' theological ' content a bit of an ' airing ' from both sides. 

I am sure many of the great thinkers and scientists up through history have not ALL dismissed GOD out of their conscious considerations . As nearly 50 % of the world population do actually believe in a GOD ,  according to statistics on these matters , including some of the great names like, Plato, Aristotle, Michael Angelo, Galileo, Isaac Newton , even ( I believe to some extent ) 'Albert Einstein ', with his comment ' God does not play dice ' .  And if spoken to privately some of today's great thinkers ! 

All I have done is to try and see ' where ' in the scientific story could God be introduced as a realistic entity . I am not sure all those scientists I have mentioned and hinted at in the previous paragraph , would agreed to being catagorised in the way you describe above .  However , I do appreciate the currently ' mooted ' picture of science is one of strict ridigity, and non predictability is not a comfortable  aspect . But more and more areas of the scientific story is hitting difficulties with some areas of the picture of behaviour of the universe , not behaving in a conventionally understood way !  More as time goes on ! 

"WHAT HAPPENED AT THE VERY BEGINNING OF TIME " being one of them ! What happens at the very very small ! What happens with some quantum phenomenon ! What IS and happens with Time !

And the list is getting larger as we go on ! 

So we either go on categorising more and more thinkers as ' cranks' or we 'bite the bullet'  , and say reluctantly we need to broaden our view of the universe to include  things we have previously banished from the science arena.

This approach of categorising some thinkers as ' cranks ' . We need to 'ease up on' , So as to address some of these areas , like the very beginning , the very small , the very early , the very distant ,  the very quantum , etc etc 

 

Mike 

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On ‎08‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 10:18 PM, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

 

Well that is quite interesting , ...  You will have to keep me informed how it progresses! . 

 

 

Today - I found it on my hand towel by the sink!  :-/    I am not sure I am fond of it's new found boldness. I thought I'd catch it in a pot and release it - it is getting to big...  but it sort of slipped behind the towel and totally vanished...  I hope it didn't hide inside my lab coat...  I'm getting goose bumps thinking about putting it on.. It's getting a little large to mess with. I can't kill it - I have a parental responsibility now - I've nurtured it's growth from a tiny thing.

 

Mixed feelings of love and parental care....  along with revolution and phobia...  odd mix, lol. It might help me beat back my phobia a little I suppose...  I can't help being a bit of a softy  - I've watched it grow from a tiny speck to a great big thing... lol. Heckles are up now though...  I don't know where it is...  last seen near my lab coat. :-/

 

 

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7 minutes ago, DrP said:

 

Today - I found it on my hand towel by the sink!  :-/    I am not sure I am fond of it's new found boldness. ..........

I don't know where it is...  last seen near my lab coat. :-/

 

 

It's back in it's tube!!   :)   Excellent! I am happy that a) it found it's way safely home, b) I know where it is now. c) the goosebumbs have gone.  

 

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15 hours ago, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

I am not sure I know what an apistevist is ,   however , evidence ....! Well that is interesting , because nobody else is standing up and saying " well I did it " ! 

The inflationary expansion from One Higgs particle ... The New scientist has this to say  

QUOTE

 " They  say it started with a bang , but in truth it misfired. The Universe began as a hot speck of energy, and for an instant remained just that. Then it blew up : from this initial seed, trillions upon trillions of times smaller than an atom , everything suddenly ballooned into the gargantuan proportions of a TIC TACK . IN A MERE FRACTION OF A SECOND, THE UNIVERSE EXPANDED BY AS MANY ORDERS AS MAGNETUDE , AS IT WOULD IN THE FOLLOWING 13.8 billion years. 

Believe it or not this burst of cosmological inflation , followed by a tamer expansion , is the most sensible way to explain how the Universe looks today . But there's something missing : what did the inflating ?  

UNQUOTE  ***

Good SIGNAL for a GOD TO ENTRE .... ( with a big bag of energy and inertia ) .

" work with a speck of energy trillions upon trillions SMALLER THAN AN ATOM " , I would have a go with something that small ? ( maybe if I could find it ?  And make it duplicate a few times , ( remember the multiply X 2  a few times , fold a large sheet of paper 45 times and it will reach the moon  )  see ps below 

 

MIKE 

***  page 31 NEW SCIENTIST  10 June 2017 

ps. I do appreciate , it would take a bit of getting that initial  Higgs particle just right for duplicating automatically . However you have had all of the previous eternity to think about it at length , before pressing the " go " button. 

 

Sadly that sounds like nothing but hype to sell magazines. I would suggest you watch a few videos about Lawrence Krauss and his ideas. He is arguably the premier authority on the subject and has written several books.    If the universe had a cause there is no reason to assume that cause was an entity.

 

 

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8 hours ago, DrP said:

 

It's back in it's tube!!   :)   Excellent! I am happy that a) it found it's way safely home, b) I know where it is now. c) the goosebumbs have gone.  

 

You were getting me fretting there for a minute. However all sounds good , being back where everybody thinks things should be . 

There is probably a moral in this story somewhere, in view of the growing USA / North Korea arms race to war ! 

Mike 

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EVIDENCE

 

I suppose the onus is on me to come up with some evidence of the activity of a God , which is of a technical nature , that is unable to be explained by other means! ( non Godlike means ) ! . 

And in view of the theme of this thread , this needs to be of a living thing , which displays HIERACHY attributes . 

Give me me a moment to dredge up such an artifact 

mike 

 

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2 minutes ago, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

 

 

EVIDENCE

 

I suppose the onus is on me to come up with some evidence of the activity of a God , which is of a technical nature , that is unable to be explained by other means! ( non Godlike means ) ! . 

And in view of the theme of this thread , this needs to be of a living thing , which displays HIERACHY attributes . 

Give me me a moment to dredge up such an artifact 

mike 

 

Take your time, men much more learned than us have been at it for thousands of years... 

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On 10 August 2017 at 9:33 PM, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

 

 

EVIDENCE

 

I suppose the onus is on me to come up with some evidence of

the activity of a God , which is of a technical nature , that is unable to be explained by other means! ( non Godlike means ) ! . 

And in view of the theme of this thread , this needs to be of a living thing , which displays HIERACHY attributes . 

 

mike 

 

Well so far , I have realised that current science techniques only span several hundred years  from the reneasance until today . Prior to that , philosophy , reason , discussion , religion and writing carried more weight, in the area we are talking about. 

I have however , thought of a very weighty argument  with supportive evidence for the two points l mentioned. 

Namely :-

1) the activity of a God  and

2)  displaying Heirachy issues. 

It spans approximately 6000 years and deals very much with the Heirachy of man and God .

Because it spans this period it is bound to cover the periods of Religion , Philosophy ,  and Science and Writing   

-------------

Mike 

-------------

it begins in that period of Earths Development when animals roamed , but there was no Humans on Earth , as we know them .  How this information got to earth , I am not too sure , but it was recorded , and  handed down the centuries to today and reads 

and God said " Let US  make man in OUR  image . " 

this would infer very deliberately that there were 

MANY others around , way up somewhere for God to say :- US ....... AND ........OUR . 

THIS was descidedly a

(GOD ....HIERACHY .. Application .)  number 1

Also some inter activity happened thousands of years later when immense activity and presence was experienced on earth when all sorts of visitations were experienced . From the HEIRACHY above. About year zero AD or CE.. This was 

 ( GOD ....HIERACHY .. APPLICATION ) number 2

SINCE then we have had a couple of millenium pass with quite a lot of scientific development , with inventions of all sorts , where we appear to have reached a stage where we are about to blow each other to pieces.

So an Intervention might be fitting for another ..

(GOD ....HIERACHY ... APPLICATION ) number 3 

This is more history than science , though science has covered , quite a bit of this timescale . 

It also needs to be remembered that during all this time , it was quite normal to believe in the EXISTANCE of God/s even as Wise men , Philosophers, even many Scientists , though today there does seem to be a proponderance of scientists who profess to be atheist . 

So there is quite a bit of GOD and HIERARCHY, Intermingled with the advent of science in the last few hundred years , out of 6000 years of human development.  Although the basis of science was being laid down many years before. 

 

Mike 

 

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2 hours ago, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

Well so far , I have realised that current science techniques only span several hundred years  from the reneasance until today . Prior to that , philosophy , reason , discussion , religion and writing carried more weight, in the area we are talking about. 

Prior to the renaissance the human condition was subject to the whims of nature, disease, disaster, injury, weather, hunger, and just plain bad luck caused much misery and suffering. the average life span of humans was 25 years or so. The cause of death as often as not was bad teeth or some other simple thing. After the renaissance the human condition began to change for the better, life spans increased, food, water, medicine, hygiene, sanitation, technology made the lives of the average man much more than just a thing to be worked to death by his king or lord. BTW, reason is a product of the age of reason which is where science and rational thought began to take hold. You can't claim reason for your pre enlightenment world. At no point in time has religion, philosophy, discussion, ever corrected science or reason. Our entire world modern world is owed to methodological naturalism. The 10s even 100s of thousands of years before that humans were not much more than animals who used sticks and rocks to kill food and were very often food for other creatures. 

 

Quote

I have however , thought of a very weighty argument  with supportive evidence for the two points l mentioned. 

Namely :-

1) the activity of a God  and

2)  displaying Heirachy issues. 

It spans approximately 6000 years and deals very much with the Heirachy of man and God .

Because it spans this period it is bound to cover the periods of Religion , Philosophy ,  and Science and Writing   

-------------

Mike 

-------------

it begins in that period of Earths Development when animals roamed , but there was no Humans on Earth , as we know them .  How this information got to earth , I am not too sure , but it was recorded , and  handed down the centuries to today and reads 

and God said " Let US  make man in OUR  image . " 

this would infer very deliberately that there were 

MANY others around , way up somewhere for God to say :- US ....... AND ........OUR . 

THIS was descidedly a

(GOD ....HIERACHY .. Application .)  number 1

Also some inter activity happened thousands of years later when immense activity and presence was experienced on earth when all sorts of visitations were experienced . From the HEIRACHY above. About year zero AD or CE.. This was 

 ( GOD ....HIERACHY .. APPLICATION ) number 2

SINCE then we have had a couple of millenium pass with quite a lot of scientific development , with inventions of all sorts , where we appear to have reached a stage where we are about to blow each other to pieces.

So an Intervention might be fitting for another ..

(GOD ....HIERACHY ... APPLICATION ) number 3 

This is more history than science , though science has covered , quite a bit of this timescale . 

It also needs to be remembered that during all this time , it was quite normal to believe in the EXISTANCE of God/s even as Wise men , Philosophers, even many Scientists , though today there does seem to be a proponderance of scientists who profess to be atheist . 

So there is quite a bit of GOD and HIERARCHY, Intermingled with the advent of science in the last few hundred years , out of 6000 years of human development.  Although the basis of science was being laid down many years before. 

 

Mike 

 

First of all there was more like 250,000 years of actual human development, not 6,000 years. Yes the basis of science was being laid down, in some very real ways religion can be said to be humans first but totally unsuccessful attempt to explain the natural world. The idea of information or an intervention coming down from a higher source is nonsensical. All that "information" and or "intervention" was wholly pulled out of the ass of men, con artists who took advantage of the gullibility of his fellow man to live high on the hog while supressing any other person or viewpoint that tried to contradict their personal scam.

It was quite normal at that time to believe in dragons, unicorns, elves, fairies, demons, gods, pantheons of gods, and rebirth and a great many other things with no substance or power to make anyones lives any better.

Science or methodological naturalism has given us untold riches, the average modern person wields wealth and power that even kings of that time before science couldn't even dream about. 

Mike, think of what you are asserting, there is no evidence for the supernatural, no reason or need for a supernatural anything to exist. Your "weighty argument" evaporates like the morning dew before the rising sun... 

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image.jpeg.c28f020eef6dc7a6b0325141671bb593.jpeg

The answer is in the 'Issue ' of  what is the structure of the whole thing , from the beginning , and how did that come about .? 

I have a feeling that the region around the time of the first Higgs  particle , it's duplication up to a trillion trillion Higgs particles , in size . Still less than a marble in dimension. Any associated thought-like patterns that might have existed amid this ' timeless ' ball of sub material formation. THEN ( as a precursor thought/plan)

 

  " {{{ The potential for a 'universe to come ' , the ensuing intelligence that this 'brain like entity ' now had at its disposal ?  To imagine and pre- program a HEIRACHY  Ranging from silent matter in the form of elements AT THE LOWEST HIERACHY, to life at a microbe scale , to animals and fish , ( the HIERACHY that I have discussed, to ultimately Humans ( HUMAN HIERACHY with large brains, to millions of universe overseers  HIERACHY of Angels , to an overall GOD . }}} " 

 

 THEN , AFTER that initial inflationary period . The birth of our universe some 13.5 billion years ago. To spread expanding into, what  to where we find ouselves  today . 

mike 

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On 12 August 2017 at 0:01 PM, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

image.jpeg.c28f020eef6dc7a6b0325141671bb593.jpeg

The answer is in the 'Issue ' of  what is the structure of the whole thing , from the beginning , and how did that come about .? 

I have a feeling that the region around the time of the first Higgs  particle , it's duplication up to a trillion trillion Higgs particles , in size . Still less than a marble in dimension. Any associated thought-like patterns that might have existed amid this ' timeless ' ball of sub material formation. THEN ( as a precursor thought/plan)

........

 

 

I am getting a bit over awed, by the numbers in the HIERACHY above humans . I had no idea that  at least 100,000,000 ( 100 million )  ANGELS  are in attendance around the EARTHS immediately future.  

(I was pointed to The Bible REVELATION chap 5 verse 11. ) 

So it would appear the whole of the next HIERACHY UP  contains ONE BEING ( GOD) with a very very complex brain , capable of understanding and initiating the start of matter. ( the UNIVERSE ) 

Once this had expanded to a manageable size , The region of ITS ( GODS) domain was furnished with at least 100,000,000 overseeing beings called Angels ( that later got further divisions , Arc Angels, Sons of God )  . 

So rather than there being " absolutely nothing " constituting , a higher HIERACHY than mankind , there appears to be one ' heck of an overseeing organisation , that would make anything we have here on earth ' look like peanuts ' .

We need to get our act together PDQ, ... METHINKS

ps . We need to remember the Jewish nation became the caretakers of many of the Documents containing information about the early start of history of the human race , as well as its continuence until the Arrival of Jesus Christ, ( one of these Angelic SONS OF God , mentioned above ). And Hence the gathering together of more information , now found in the ' New Testament ' including REVELATION  ( Quoted above about   100,000,000 Angels .)

So we seem to be gathering quite a lot of Historical evidence , for this proposed HIERACHY, that I proposed. 

Rather than a big ' blank ' we seem to have unearthed quite a lot of evidence and character for the Human HIERACHY , integrated in human history across thousands of Years . As originally proposed.

So somehow the HIERACHY has appeared at two levels , as Caretakers in the regions above . And as recipients in the regions below . 

( has echoes of me above out of the water , as caretaker and my fish , below , Fish in the water as recipients of my care  ) ! 

Now if that is not ' EVIDENCE ' , I do not know what is ? 

Well woven into human history over the last 6000 years ! 

Mike 

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3 hours ago, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

 

I am getting a bit over awed, by the numbers in the HIERACHY above humans . I had no idea that  at least 100,000,000 ( 100 million )  ANGELS  are in attendance around the EARTHS immediately future.  

(I was pointed to The Bible REVELATION chap 5 verse 11. ) 

So it would appear the whole of the next HIERACHY UP  contains ONE BEING ( GOD) with a very very complex brain , capable of understanding and initiating the start of matter. ( the UNIVERSE ) 

Once this had expanded to a manageable size , The region of ITS ( GODS) domain was furnished with at least 100,000,000 overseeing beings called Angels ( that later got further divisions , Arc Angels, Sons of God )  . 

So rather than there being " absolutely nothing " constituting , a higher HIERACHY than mankind , there appears to be one ' heck of an overseeing organisation , that would make anything we have here on earth ' look like peanuts ' .

We need to get our act together PDQ, ... METHINKS

ps . We need to remember the Jewish nation became the caretakers of many of the Documents containing information about the early start of history of the human race , as well as its continuence until the Arrival of Jesus Christ, ( one of these Angelic SONS OF God , mentioned above ). And Hence the gathering together of more information , now found in the ' New Testament ' including REVELATION  ( Quoted above about   100,000,000 Angels .)

So we seem to be gathering quite a lot of Historical evidence , for this proposed HIERACHY, that I proposed. 

Rather than a big ' blank ' we seem to have unearthed quite a lot of evidence and character for the Human HIERACHY , integrated in human history across thousands of Years . As originally proposed.

So somehow the HIERACHY has appeared at two levels , as Caretakers in the regions above . And as recipients in the regions below . 

( has echoes of me above out of the water , as caretaker and my fish , below , Fish in the water as recipients of my care  ) ! 

Now if that is not ' EVIDENCE ' , I do not know what is ? 

Well woven into human history over the last 6000 years ! 

Mike 

Mike, why should you look for knowledge in a book written by bronze age savages? Everything the book asserts that can be tested is wrong. Much of it is plagiarized from earlier mythological books and none of them contain anything not known to modern methodological naturalism. 

From my point of view you have done nothing but slowly sneak the idea of the supernatural and a particular book about the supernatural into the conversation in an obvious attempt to legitimize said book even though the book is a collection of meaningless fairy tales. 

The Bible gives us nothing but a set of so called moral codes that would get you arrested in any 1st world modern country. The Bible gives us nothing that would allow the human condition to improve much less direct us to actions that would improve the human condition. The Bible is full of lies and deception and it's truly sad that an intelligent modern human would even consider it meaningful. 

6,000 years is nothing compared to deep time, if we go by modern thought on this humans have been around for 250,000 years. Are you suggesting that for 244,000 years god looked at human suffering from brutality, disease, natural disasters, other predatory creatures, not to mention his fellow man and then one day decided to give his instructions to the ignorant goat herders of the middle eastern desert instead of some civilized group of humans like the chinese who already had writing and wouldn't have had to pass the stories down in a game of chinese whispers for thousands of years. 

Mike, you need evidence to even begin to assert the concept of god, much less your god, and then you would have to explain why god ignored us for hundreds of thousands of years? 

I am not longer confident you can do any of that... 

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5 hours ago, Moontanman said:

Mike, why should you look for knowledge in a book written by bronze age savages? Everything the book asserts that can be tested is wrong. Much of it is plagiarized from earlier mythological books and none of them contain anything not known to modern methodological naturalism. 

From my point of view you have done nothing but slowly sneak the idea of the supernatural and a particular book about the supernatural into the conversation in an obvious attempt to legitimize said book even though the book is a collection of meaningless fairy tales. 

The Bible gives us nothing but a set of so called moral codes that would get you arrested in any 1st world modern country. The Bible gives us nothing that would allow the human condition to improve much less direct us to actions that would improve the human condition. The Bible is full of lies and deception and it's truly sad that an intelligent modern human would even consider it meaningful. 

6,000 years is nothing compared to deep time, if we go by modern thought on this humans have been around for 250,000 years. Are you suggesting that for 244,000 years god looked at human suffering from brutality, disease, natural disasters, other predatory creatures, not to mention his fellow man and then one day decided to give his instructions to the ignorant goat herders of the middle eastern desert instead of some civilized group of humans like the chinese who already had writing and wouldn't have had to pass the stories down in a game of chinese whispers for thousands of years. 

Mike, you need evidence to even begin to assert the concept of god, much less your god, and then you would have to explain why god ignored us for hundreds of thousands of years? 

I am not longer confident you can do any of that... 

The trouble is , I went to the local primary schools and then grammar school, in England . And we were not taught about any Chinese history , so I can not comment from any memory of history of that group. I was however taught the local Mesopotamian history of the Middle East. I can see my history text book now .:-

" FROM  UR to ROME  " , with history of the Mesopotamian Valley. With Cuniform writing being the first writing ( a series of wedge chisel cuts in stone ) . 

The  Chinese history I am no expert on , except the other day I did watch a documentary about the Silk Road and I do not think it was anything like this 240,000 years you speak of . I will try and find out about the Chinese History . 

I am sorry to disappoint you , with my comments. It just to me does all fit together, what with MOSUL , the recent battle ground , not far from UR  in the Middle East , and many of the other Historic sights of that region . ( Iran , Iraq, Seria , Isreal , Arabia ) . 

BUT , what if I am right ? That it did all start off in a civilisation  way , near the Caspian Sea , Mediterranian sea, Messipotanian, Arabian  region  of the World . Many of the artefacts are still there.  As I was taught back in the 1950's ., in school ?  

Mike 

 

Edited by Mike Smith Cosmos
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17 minutes ago, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

The trouble is , I went to the local primary schools and then grammar school, in England . And we were not taught about any Chinese history , so I can not comment from any memory of history of that group. I was however taught the local Mesopotamian history of the Middle East. I can see my history text book now .:-

Which is a very honest statement of your ignorance. That is surely not something to be ashamed of. Nor is it something on which to base a worldview.

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41 minutes ago, Area54 said:

Which is a very honest statement of your ignorance. That is surely not something to be ashamed of. Nor is it something on which to base a worldview.

O.k. I appreciate your gentleness , in this instance . 

I D'ont get it though. 

Egyptian history and archeology is one of the strongest reputation and output in digging and archeology . YET  , it is really all well buried in sand . Only the pyramids stand above the blown sand . AND YET , this civilised archeology ONLY goes back 1000's of years , not HUNDREDS of thousands of years. 

Surely , if the Chinese were a civilisation 250,000 years ago , by now the whole world would be of Chinese decent , not middle eastern . 

There is a lot of attempts to bring the odd single artefact to the forefront , and say 

" there you go , look at this monkey with a straitened back , it must be the start of Civilisation ! ( it probably had a bad accident and fell out of a tree badly and broke its back ) ".

I still say the bulk of our history , came from Mediterranian and middle eastern roots. And I do not think I am alone in this . However , I do stand to be corrected ! 

Mike 

 

Edited by Mike Smith Cosmos
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Neither Moontanman, nor myself have suggested Chinese civilisation goes back 250,000 years. Moontanman made two clear statements that you have misread.

Statement 1: Homo sapiens has been in existence for 250,000 years.

Statement 2: Chinese civilisation was advanced at the time the Jews were following a nomadic existence.

Are these statements accurate? I might make a minor quibble with each of them.

Re Statement 1 - My understanding was that the first "true humans" appeared around 180,000 years ago. However that understanding requires two caveats. Firstly, Moontanman may have more up to date information than I. (He hints at this by referring to "modern thought" on the issue.) Secondly, classification of modern humans, or Homo sapiens is artificial. It is a matter of definition. The key point Moontanman makes is that this supposed God let humanity suffer for many tens of thousands of years before taking an interst in an obscure group of nomads (at which point he gave a thumbs up to circumcision and a thumbs down to prawn cocktails).

Re Statement 2 - Moontanman's post could be interepreted to mean that China was the first civilisation. I understand that Chinese civilisation developed independently of those in the Middle East, the so called Fertile Crescent, but a little later. However, I think Moontanman was focusing on the Jews, at the time they were evolving their religion and were not a settled people, with writing and scholars and industry and burgeoning economies. (Moontanman, have I read you correctly?) Again, he is questioning the logic that God should decide to make his appearance to a bunch of unwashed, uneducated, goat herders,rather than a sophisticated and open minded people. (I never appreciate the "God works in mysterious ways" response.)

The bulk of "our" history may come from the Mediterranean, because "we" are a European people and chance dictated that "we" should, for the present, come to dominate the culture of the globe. However, to deny the richness of cultures and civilisations and languages and histories and literatures and science that has developed or been practiced elsewhere is to take a disturbingly egocentric viewpoint. I know you mean well Mike, but it is that sort of thinking that leads to racial prejudice, bigotry and the gas chambers.

You have an incredibly narrow minded approach to history. You have a belief that has spawned an agenda. You close your eyes to any facts that do not support that agenda, or twist them in a way that destroys their meaning. I sincerely wish you would stop it.

Edited by Area54
Correct three typos. (Really silly ones!)
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