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Producing a hierarchy of human life .


Mike Smith Cosmos
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The universe is indifferent to your incredulity.

.

 

But in a way , that issue , in a way was one of the central reasonings of this thread .

 

That was : -

 

That my observation of

HIERACHY In these sequences going in the top down direction , eg from the human down to my fish in the pond etc , had a gradient downward of concern, interest in wellbeing , feeding, protection etc ( say me for my fish ) . So if the HIERACHY is to follow the same style ( which is often the case with systems throughout the Universe, eg inverse square law , etc ) . Then , far from being ' Indifferent ' , I would suggest that if there is intelligence abroad across the Universe , that I am suggesting THERE IS . , then I would suggest than far from being " Indifferent " to the Human Species , we are very much in the ' spotlight ' at the moment , as indeed many television documentaries illustrate , with talk of GLOBAL WARMING , EARTHS HUSBANDRY , POPULATION, , RESCOURCES, , VIOLENCE , , CRIME , ATROCETIES, WARS , Etc , ETC. To name but a few of the issues that a Universal Overseeing System. would be bound to notice , and come to assistance. and or radical sort out .

 

Hense it would behoove us currently to be on the lookout for such intervention , lest we fail to step aside from being caught up in the wrong place when adjustments are being made .

 

A bit like in ( Hitch Hikers guide to the Galaxy , when a trans universe highway was coming strait through where the Earth was, and so the earth was to be obliterated ! ) [ just a flippant remark , not to be taken seriously ] .

 

Seriously though , I do think it is honestly serious that we address the likelihood of an 'Earth Inspection ' at this time from higher up the Hierachy , and what we need to do urgently worldwide , is to accommodate serious , radical , overall changes . There are vague movements in this direction with things like CO 2 emission and global warming , but there is far more besides that need hughe attention . James Lovelock , made vaste noises in the environment direction . But that is just the ' tip of the iceburge ' . Vaste, Radical changes are needed , today / tomorrow . Which I would have no doubt would be acceptable to a Higher Order , if they were achieved !

 

 

Mike

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.

 

But in a way , that issue , in a way was one of the central reasonings of this thread .

And that reasoning is flawed. I, and others, have demonstrated this. You have ignored the demonstrations. You have failed to address the objections, You have simply continued to assert your belief and your flawed reasoning.

 

Your premises are wrong! Your evidence is absent! Your logic is faulty! Yet you continue to assert your belief. This is faith, not science. It is religion, not spirituality.

 

 

. . . . . then I would suggest than far from being " Indifferent " to the Human Species , we are very much in the ' spotlight ' at the moment , as indeed many television documentaries illustrate , with talk of GLOBAL WARMING , EARTHS HUSBANDRY , POPULATION, , RESCOURCES, , VIOLENCE , , CRIME , ATROCETIES, WARS , Etc , ETC. To name but a few of the issues that a Universal Overseeing System. would be bound to notice , and come to assistance. and or radical sort out .

Mike, that is just silly. The antics of a bunch of jumped up monkeys on a lump of debris floating around one of half a billion stars in a galaxy that contains at least half a billion more galaxies is hardly going to be in the spotlight. "Seagull poops on pensioner" might get a one paragraph mention in the Whitsatble Gazette, but it will never make the New York Times.

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Mike, that is just silly. The antics of a bunch of jumped up monkeys on a lump of debris floating around one of half a billion stars in a galaxy that contains at least half a billion more galaxies is hardly going to be in the spotlight. "Seagull poops on pensioner" might get a one paragraph mention in the Whitsatble Gazette, but it will never make the New York Times.

.

 

Yes, I can understand your reasoning.

 

That is unless we are the FIRST Civilisation to appear in the great spread of time .!

 

Someone had to be first ! And we screwed up !

 

Mike

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I have been reading a June copy of the New Scientist . Article "the Higgs Bang " how the world's most famous particle also started the Universe.

 

It splits it into two very early time Periods .

 

To quote " The universe began as a hot speck of energy, and for an instant remained just that. Then it blew up : from this initial seed , trillions of trillions of times smaller than an atom , everything suddenly ballooned into the gargantuan proportions of a Tic Tac . In a mere fraction of a second the universe expanded,by as many orders of magnitude as it would in the following 13.8 billion years.

Believe it or not ,this burst of cosmological inflation , followed by a slower , tamer expansion , is the most sensible way to explain how the universe looks today . But there is something missing : What did the inflating ? " quote from New Scientist 10 th June 2017 Page 30 .

 

I cannot believe that such a ginormous Scientific project ( of the very early universe) , was NOT contrived and augustrated by the Earliest of Universal Engineering Scientists of Extraordinary skills and capability .

 

I can only think it is a fitting name to give this Bunch of Exrtaordinary ,Top Hierachy Scientists extraordinaire . The description ."God" and his helpers The Hierachy up from Humans .

 

Quotation about the early universe above : New Scientist 10th June 2017 COVER STORY ( author John Cartwright )

 

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I am not sure that I explained the above clearly enough . I may have used a double negative . Namely :-

 

" I cannot believe that such a ginormous Scientific project ( of the very early universe) , was NOT contrived and orhcastrated by the Earliest of Universal Engineering Scientists of Extraordinary skills and capability . " what I meant was , I CAN CONCIEVE it ! ( with massive resources and intelligence and skills ) ...

 

" I believe the massive project of getting the very early universe going both from a Higgs particle inflating to a bundle of fundamental particles exceedingly , exceedingly , exceedingly dense containing the ingredients to go into phase two expansion . Would clearly take engineers of extraordinary capability to multi multi times that of the CERN project . Aware as we are of the facility , personnel , and scientific understanding , design and build of CERN . This first inflationary phase taking zero time ( our time ) . THIS IS CONCEEVABLE

 

Then , these extraordinary scientific beings , to take this " marble sized " concentrated matter to expand on its journey up the 13. 800,Billion year expansion . To become the Universe we know today .

 

It is conceivable to have such personnel and machinery to do such a project , having THE CERN PROJECT , as a micro miniature project on this sort of matter , but not on the same scale . That is why the proposed " early start to the Universe , I S Concievable , even with only our current knowledge . But even in my imaginary model :- the personnel , intelligence , facilities needed would be , pardon the pun , " ASTRONOMICAL " by proportion . However imaginable , and supportive of this thread , that there are other superior intelligences, around in the universe .

 

THIS TOO I can just about consider it CONCEIVABLE .

 

But more to the point , if this was so , as somebody , or something had to initiate and Orchestrate it :- then ,

 

The idea of a further Hierarchy above humans to achieve the above , is in fact a necessity . .

 

Mike

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-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have been reading a June copy of the New Scientist . Article "the Higgs Bang " how the world's most famous particle also started the Universe.

 

It splits it into two very early time Periods .

 

To quote " The universe began as a hot speck of energy, and for an instant remained just that. Then it blew up : from this initial seed , trillions of trillions of times smaller than an atom , everything suddenly ballooned into the gargantuan proportions of a Tic Tac . In a mere fraction of a second the universe expanded,by as many orders of magnitude as it would in the following 13.8 billion years.

Believe it or not ,this burst of cosmological inflation , followed by a slower , tamer expansion , is the most sensible way to explain how the universe looks today . But there is something missing : What did the inflating ? " quote from New Scientist 10 th June 2017 Page 30 .

 

I cannot believe that such a ginormous Scientific project ( of the very early universe) , was NOT contrived and augustrated by the Earliest of Universal Engineering Scientists of Extraordinary skills and capability .

 

I can only think it is a fitting name to give this Bunch of Exrtaordinary ,Top Hierachy Scientists extraordinaire . The description ."God" and his helpers The Hierachy up from Humans .

 

Quotation about the early universe above : New Scientist 10th June 2017 COVER STORY ( author John Cartwright )

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

I am not sure that I explained the above clearly enough . I may have used a double negative . Namely :-

 

" I cannot believe that such a ginormous Scientific project ( of the very early universe) , was NOT contrived and orhcastrated by the Earliest of Universal Engineering Scientists of Extraordinary skills and capability . " what I meant was , I CAN CONCIEVE it ! ( with massive resources and intelligence and skills ) ...

 

" I believe the massive project of getting the very early universe going both from a Higgs particle inflating to a bundle of fundamental particles exceedingly , exceedingly , exceedingly dense containing the ingredients to go into phase two expansion . Would clearly take engineers of extraordinary capability to multi multi times that of the CERN project . Aware as we are of the facility , personnel , and scientific understanding , design and build of CERN . This first inflationary phase taking zero time ( our time ) . THIS IS CONCEEVABLE

 

Then , these extraordinary scientific beings , to take this " marble sized " concentrated matter to expand on its journey up the 13. 800,Billion year expansion . To become the Universe we know today .

 

It is conceivable to have such personnel and machinery to do such a project , having THE CERN PROJECT , as a micro miniature project on this sort of matter , but not on the same scale . That is why the proposed " early start to the Universe , I S Concievable , even with only our current knowledge . But even in my imaginary model :- the personnel , intelligence , facilities needed would be , pardon the pun , " ASTRONOMICAL " by proportion . However imaginable , and supportive of this thread , that there are other superior intelligences, around in the universe .

 

THIS TOO I can just about consider it CONCEIVABLE .

 

But more to the point , if this was so , as somebody , or something had to initiate and Orchestrate it :- then ,

 

The idea of a further Hierarchy above humans to achieve the above , is in fact a necessity . .

 

Mike

 

 

Yours or anyone else's personal incredulity has no bearing on reality...

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Yours or anyone else's personal incredulity has no bearing on reality...

 

Surely it can ? As I am a part , as much as everything else is , " part of this reality " ?

And being a ' part ' , I make up the ' reality of the Universe ' as does each contributory atom in ' Matter ' ?

 

I thought this was the essence of a thread in the ' Philosophy ' section of this Science Forum ?

 

------------/----------------

 

Ps I appreciate I am on fairly ' shaky ground ' on this point . As I was more into a figure of speech , than I was into trying to win , yet another speculation ! So you deserve ' downing me ' , on that particular Phrase ! ( HI ) .

 

However , I am deadly serious on the sectiment of my overall remark , that

 

The Universe must be consistent , for it to hold together sufficiently well to both ' Exist Physically ' , and relevant here , maintain living organisms . And under particular issue here , that

 

A HIERARCHY , . MUST EXIST , of the type I am discussing , namely Not Material Substance , but of ,

' CARING ANIMAL CONGLOMERATION ' type .

 

If ' CARING ' Is not a necessities in the UNIVERSE , the ' God Help Us ' , is all I can say , if that is not a 'metaphor too far ' ?

 

 

Mike

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Here is evidence from a) my ongoing experimental OBSERVATION , and my discussion of the subject of a higher HIERACHY above Humans able and likely to take part in ' Intervention of the human world wide condition  ' when it becomes beyond our capability. 

In the same way as I ( human ) , INTERVENE ,. In the condition of the fish POND , with activity that is beyond the capability of the gold fish . 

And interestingly in this particular INTERVENTION  , the fish are not ' PHASED ' by the intervention . By their minor yet comforting participation in this intervention , they illustrate we as ( humans ) need not necessarily fear participating in an intervention from further up the HIERACHY . 

 

Note ,  in the following photograph of my pushing a metal mesh weed collector into the pool in their immediate proximity . They are NOT FREAKED, or swim away , they are familiar with me , my periodic intervention , and appear to enjoy it and swim with the flow of the net ! 

One orange fish can be seen almost touching , or being touched by the metal gauze net , (  just below the top edge of the net )

image.jpeg

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Edited by Mike Smith Cosmos
(b) obvious that the fish have developed a ' non fear ' ' and dread ' of me , the being from their HIERACHY above . They have learned to relate , however foreign to their own interrelation with the other fish . They play with each other and dart around
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I keep trying Mike but what you are asserting must be way above my head... I keep fish. I see them, quite regularly, stop fearing me and in many cases actually seem to vie for my attention. Food is a very strong motivator. I also see them display emotions when I catch a fish that trusts me to change the tank it's in. Usually it takes days to weeks for them regain trust in me. 

I've seen wildly varying species of fish display what appeared to be friendship. But the idea of hierarchies is still arbitrary, under different circumstances fish would no doubt be way above me if hierarchies exist. Scuba diving will show you this almost immediately. To me it seems that any level of superiority depends on who dominates the situation... 

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.hi Moontainman , 

In response to your interesting comments , 

you clearly have a similar relationship with your fish as me.  So I am trying to draw something out of this ( inter hierarchy ) activity, feeling , depth, etc which , if it is indicative of ( inter hierarchy) behaviour and feeling , may help, in trying to understand any possible , activity, feelings, communication , and other things , that could just be experienced, understood , and explored toward a Higher HIERACHY  to us humans . 

Namely , I am friendly towards my fish , so maybe the next level up is friendly to us . The fish are ' small beer ' in a days task to me , so maybe we are small beer to the layer above , , and you could go through a whole scenario of ( a ) the relationship we have with our fish and the proportion of time and effort we spend in attending to the fish , what are feelings are toward the fish , what happens if I die, what happens if they die , whatever you care to propose , THEN turn the thing on its head and make yourself the bottom in this particular ( 2 layer hierarchy ) and surmise what or how the activity and relationship could work upwards possibly ? ( guessing , mind game , speculation ) . Then if you feel so moved , try out as a mind game , something , like , if one particular fish ( unlike all the other fish came over to the near edge of the pond and stared at you ( eye to eye ) , went away and came back a few moments later with another accompanying fish , ( what would you think of that ) and what could be the equivalent ( up the layer of our hierarchy ) . 

Like , I said before , I have tried it out quite seriously , not playing , alone, not where you are going to be seen  , deadly serious and meaningfully , and the results have been quite interesting .  ( not an apparition , not gold dropping out of the sky , but something reasonably  significant BUT CAN BE AMBIGUOUS . ( meaning anyone else you told it to , could say " yes but that is just a fluke , accident , or  " 

Sirendipody . .*

Try it out , but you must mean it ( that is important ) . 

 

Mike 

* serendipity 

serendipity
ˌsɛr(ə)nˈdɪpɪti/
noun
  1. the occurrence and development of events by chance in a happy or beneficial way.
    "a fortunate stroke of serendipity"
    synonyms: chance, happy chance, accident, happy accident, flukeMore
     
 

 

 

 

 

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On 21 July 2017 at 9:14 AM, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

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I have been reading a June copy of the New Scientist . Article "the Higgs Bang " how the world's most famous particle also started the Universe.

 

It splits it into two very early time Periods .

 

To quote " The universe began as a hot speck of energy, and for an instant remained just that. Then it blew up : from this initial seed , trillions of trillions of times smaller than an atom , everything suddenly ballooned into the gargantuan proportions of a Tic Tac . In a mere fraction of a second the universe expanded,by as many orders of magnitude as it would in the following 13.8 billion years.

Believe it or not ,this burst of cosmological inflation , followed by a slower , tamer expansion , is the most sensible way to explain how the universe looks today . But there is something missing : What did the inflating ? " quote from New Scientist 10 th June 2017 Page 30 .

 

I cannot believe that such a ginormous Scientific project ( of the very early universe) , was NOT contrived and augustrated by the Earliest of Universal Engineering Scientists of Extraordinary skills and capability .

 

I can only think it is a fitting name to give this Bunch of Exrtaordinary ,Top Hierachy Scientists extraordinaire . The description ."God" and his helpers The Hierachy up from Humans .

 

Quotation about the early universe above : New Scientist 10th June 2017 COVER STORY ( author John Cartwright )

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

I am not sure that I explained the above clearly enough . I may have used a double negative . Namely :-

 

" I cannot believe that such a ginormous Scientific project ( of the very early universe) , was NOT contrived and orhcastrated by the Earliest of Universal Engineering Scientists of Extraordinary skills and capability . " what I meant was , I CAN CONCIEVE it ! ( with massive resources and intelligence and skills ) ...

 

" I believe the massive project of getting the very early universe going both from a Higgs particle inflating to a bundle of fundamental particles exceedingly , exceedingly , exceedingly dense containing the ingredients to go into phase two expansion . Would clearly take engineers of extraordinary capability to multi multi times that of the CERN project . Aware as we are of the facility , personnel , and scientific understanding , design and build of CERN . This first inflationary phase taking zero time ( our time ) . This is CONCIEVABLE . 

 

Then , these extraordinary scientific beings , to take this " marble sized " concentrated matter to expand on its journey up the 13. 800,Billion year expansion . To become the Universe we know today .

 

It is conceivable to have such personnel and machinery to do such a project , having THE CERN PROJECT , as a micro miniature project on this sort of matter , but not on the same scale . That is why the proposed " early start to the Universe , I S Concievable , even with only our current knowledge . But even in my imaginary model :- the personnel , intelligence , facilities needed would be , pardon the pun , " ASTRONOMICAL " by proportion . However imaginable , and supportive of this thread , that there are other superior intelligences, around in the universe .

 

THIS TOO I can just about consider it CONCIEVABLE 

 

But more to the point , if this was so , as somebody , or something had to initiate and Orchestrate it :- then ,

 

The idea of a further Hierarchy above humans to achieve the above , is in fact a necessity . .

 

Mike

Many years ago ;

 ( in the 1990's I think a Book was written " The God Particle " ),  I think it was to do with the early discussion of the proposed Higgs Boson .

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Particle_(book)

since the recent evidence from ' the large hadron collider ' , this has been supported. ( since then , when the name GOD PARTICLE , was given more as a 'Nick Name ') 

So the idea that a single Higgs particle could become the seed of multiplication  to spread across the whole current 13.8 billion year old universe at large , with a name association of ' the God Particle(s)  '

that is in fact " EVERYWHERE"  inferring ( GOD , whatever that is ) , is everywhere ,  lends itself to the idea of a HIERACHY  of some sort , everywhere , but above us as Humans somehow ? Due to the fact that we are not everywhere , or in any way in control ! Even of the Earth , let alone anywhere else ! So by dint of this , we must be lower in the HIERACHY . 

So this HIERACHY thing is shaping up somewhat . 

-----------------------------------------------------------------

1. The GOD particle , appears everywhere in the UNIVERSE being part of

............  1st Top HIERACHY . 

2. The HUMAN race , appears everywhere on EARTH being part of the

............... 2nd  HIERACHY . 

3. The FISHES  en mass , appears everywhere in SEA / RIVERS/PONDS , being a fundamental part of the

............... 3rd  HIERACHY .

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Mike 

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On 28 July 2017 at 7:05 AM, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

Many years ago ;

 ( in the 1990's I think a Book was written " The God Particle " ),  I think it was to do with the early discussion of the proposed Higgs Boson .

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Particle_(book)

since the recent evidence from ' the large hadron collider ' , this has been supported. ( since then , when the name GOD PARTICLE , was given more as a 'Nick Name ') 

So the idea that a single Higgs particle could become the seed of multiplication  to spread across the whole current 13.8 billion year old universe at large , with a name association of ' the God Particle(s)  '

that is in fact " EVERYWHERE"  inferring ( GOD , whatever that is ) , is everywhere ,  lends itself to the idea of a HIERACHY  of some sort , everywhere , but above us as Humans somehow ? Due to the fact that we are not everywhere , or in any way in control ! Even of the Earth , let alone anywhere else ! So by dint of this , we must be lower in the HIERACHY . 

So this HIERACHY thing is shaping up somewhat . 

-----------------------------------------------------------------

1. The GOD particle , appears everywhere in the UNIVERSE being part of

............  1st Top HIERACHY . 

2. The HUMAN race , appears everywhere on EARTH being part of the

............... 2nd  HIERACHY . 

3. The FISHES  en mass , appears everywhere in SEA / RIVERS/PONDS , being a fundamental part of the

............... 3rd  HIERACHY .

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Mike 

 

If what I have proposed above is correct . 

Which of course is only suggestions . Then :- 

If the Higgs Bosons are everywhere about the Universe , and GOD is everywhere about the universe , then it surely follows that  :-

GOD UTILISES OR IS MADE OF  ( amongst everything else consisting of ) HIGGS BOSONS ! 

Mike 

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Hello Mike, sorry for being direct, but that is just silly.

Photons are also "everywhere" and so, apart from being a bit clumpy, is dark matter. And even more so dark energy. And even in intergalactic space there are plenty of protons hanging around. Maybe you need to follow the Hindu pantheon to allow for this multiplicity of possible gods.

I've just noticed that two post backs you replied to one of your own posts and then in the subsequent post replied to that one. I thought this was a discussion forum, not a blog. Some might consider your approach a bit rude. Others might wonder if it is the only way you can get a conversation at your own level. I just think it is also silly.

If you want a discussion, why don't you seriously address the challenge issued to you by several members that there is precious meaningful evidence for your claimed heirarchy. That heirarchy is only "shaping up" in your mind. Nowhere else. Are you up to the challenge? If so, let's hear no more about fishes, let's have a bread and butter approach.

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29 minutes ago, Area54 said:

Hello Mike, sorry for being direct, but that is just silly.

Photons are also "everywhere" and so, apart from being a bit clumpy, is dark matter. And even more so dark energy. And even in intergalactic space there are plenty of protons hanging around. Maybe you need to follow the Hindu pantheon to allow for this multiplicity of possible gods.

I've just noticed that two post backs you replied to one of your own posts and then in the subsequent post replied to that one. I thought this was a discussion forum, not a blog. Some might consider your approach a bit rude. Others might wonder if it is the only way you can get a conversation at your own level. I just think it is also silly.

If you want a discussion, why don't you seriously address the challenge issued to you by several members that there is precious meaningful evidence for your claimed heirarchy. That heirarchy is only "shaping up" in your mind. Nowhere else. Are you up to the challenge? If so, let's hear no more about fishes, let's have a bread and butter approach.

Yes, well o.k. 

But I thought it was quite enlightening in the context of Science , that persons , like the majority of individuals ( including myself ) , partaking in discussions and reading on this science forum , have a constant mental battle in their head . 

Namely , how do I reconcile GOD  with current SCIENCE SPEAK . ? 

I felt this might just be relevant to this issue . Namely how can one , in the same breath speak about God and a Scientific Subject . 

It would seem to me that this EVERYWHERE NOTION  of both Higgs Bosons , Photons, Dark Energy and anything else that is believed to exist EVERYWHERE  about the universe , might just give us a useful reconciliation of this oft , missunderstood notion ?  ( How can one reconcile God and Science ? ) .

If one has chosen to accept only half the story ( either God or Science ) , then that is a personal choice . However I would contend , half the story makes for an incomplete picture , and thus an incomplete understanding of REALITY ? ( No ? )  Personally I would prefer a complete picture . To me it does answer some very interesting Philosophical questions ? 

Like how did the whole thing get started in the first place? Etc etc 

mike

 

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15 minutes ago, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

But I thought it was quite enlightening in the context of Science , that persons , like the majority of individuals ( including myself ) , partaking in discussions and reading on this science forum , have a constant mental battle in their head . 
Namely , how do I reconcile GOD  with current SCIENCE SPEAK . ? 

Based upon my limited reading of the regular members of this forum very few of them have such a conflict. If we ignore the trolls and lunatics with their own "theories", the membership seems to be made up almost entirely of two kinds. The first sees no need for God and therfore find no conflict. The second have long reconciled their belief in god with their confidence in science, or - indeed  never felt any conflict between the two in the first place.

If you have contrary solid information please provide it. You will see I have underlined "solid". I mention that in order to underline it further.

 

Quote

I felt this might just be relevant to this issue . Namely how can one , in the same breath speak about God and a Scientific Subject . It would seem to me that this EVERYWHERE NOTION  of both Higgs Bosons , Photons and anything else that is believed to exist EVERYWHERE  about the universe , might just give us a useful reconciliation of this oft , missunderstood notion ?  ( How can one reconcile God and Science ? )

So you have now modified your stance that God is Higgs Bosons, to "God is the universe", which looks pretty much like the God of Einstein, not the personal god you think is readying herself to intervene in the affairs of men.

If one has chosen to accept only half the story ( either God or Science ) , then that is a personal choice . However I would contend , half the story makes for an incomplete picture , and thus an incomplete understanding of REALITY ? ( No ? )

Maybe it does (make for an incomplete understanding of reality), but that's not as bad as having an understanding of reality that is distorted and corrupted by nonsense.

 

I notice you choose not to take up the challenge of defending your heirarchy concept properly.

 

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7 hours ago, Area54 said:

 

I notice you choose not to take up the challenge of defending your heirarchy concept properly.

 

Far from it . 

Not in particular order of priority, I did feel your comment about " fish " , a contention that I feel is wrong . 

As one of the HIERACHY layers , where Godlike and Humans are the other two ,

FISH  I feel make a good intermediate layer . 

The range of fish can cover from the ' human SPERM  where its size is very, very , small , right up to massive PREHISTORIC SPERM WHALES  . ( tremendous size ) . 

The fact that we relate to them , can observe them , catch them . Have them in tanks, ponds and most importantly in my investigation here , draw conclusions about how this can help in  investigating other links across other HIERACHY borders. 

As regards other members , underneath , there are quite a few who would be curious to know the answer as to whether it possible to experience intelligence at a higher level than Humans . I was suggesting that maybe we could use our experience with learning how to relate to fish , to the higher level  ' challenge ' ? 

 

Mike 

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That's pure word salad. I am looking for a serious discussion with you ,where you address the objections to your concept of heirarchy made by myself and other members on multiple occassions in this thread. I am not looking for you to simply repeat a load of New World mumbo-jumbo.

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3 hours ago, Area54 said:

..                     ....serious discussion ....

     ..where you address the objections to your concept of heirarchy ...

Well unless I have developed poor concepts on my way up through life ..

then ... I have experienced the ranking of living beings ( if that is the correct word ) .

not so much about who can catch and eat another species. 

---------------DEFINITION ( mine ) -----  -HIERACHY ----------------------------

I think in terms of , intelligence, obvious responsibility, care of others including the young, cleverness , respectful fear of those more dominent and cleverer than oneself. Responsibility to the surrounding environment . And no doubt a host of other features.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I am looking for

three categories  in an ascending series of layers of the living environment . Increasing and decreasing in status . I nominated ones that I was able to consider and experiment with. They are in ascending status :- 

 

1. Gold fish as I have an environment , where such exist , and I can experiment with. 

2. Humans  as I have personal experiences both in this life and  ( in both of the other layers ) 

3. Supernatural , investigations into the likelihood of God(s) and other greater than human beings . 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you have particular questions on any of these thee categories, I am happy to give  whatever I am able . 

 

Mike 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

 

---------------DEFINITION ( mine ) -----  -HIERACHY ----------------------------

I think in terms of , intelligence, obvious responsibility, care of others including the young, cleverness , respectful fear of those more dominent and cleverer than oneself. Responsibility to the surrounding environment . And no doubt a host of other features.

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Mike 

 

 

Mike, so many other animals do all the things you assert making a list would be long and tedious... And by the way, you seem to be asserting that the supernatural is a given when in fact it is nothing but baseless claims.. 

Edited by Moontanman
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Mike, it might have been helpful if you had bothered to read the objections made at multiple times in this thread. I shall summarise the main one here.

The definition of heirarchy you present is from the perspective of a human. A tiger, a cockroach, or a culture of Salmonella would have a different perspective. You have utterly failed to address that point so far.

Plus, what Mootanman said while I was typing this.

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1 hour ago, Moontanman said:

 

Mike, so many other animals do all the things you assert making a list would be long and tedious... And by the way, you seem to be asserting that the supernatural is a given when in fact it is nothing but baseless claims.. 

Yes , but those animals are probably , or likely , to ALL be in the same level of HIERACHY. I have picked fish  ( gold fish ) , because I have them near to hand to conduct simple experiments and observations with . So in my case at this stage the list is 1. True I could pad this out in the future should it deem necessary , with many fish and other animals to observe .  Which it would be necessary if there is a glimmer of a positive observation . 

The second HIERACHY, is that of Humans , of which I am an easy and ,to hand sample to Observe , and make conclusions on . There are some millions of others in this sample area, if necessary. 

The God ( Particle ) , Higgs Boson , Photons, and Dark energy might be more difficult . Although there is much /many observation  in astronomy . The evidence for a living GOD , among the heavens is an interesting concept . It might make an interesting project to ' Prove ' that concept , but I think there is quite a lot of evidence for reason and conclusions . This comes out of history artefacts  , and human testimony . Not to mention , that many gaps remain unanswered in the Universe at large -- such as " what fueled the Big Bang in the first place . Currently a vacant spot in Universe history . Also the practically of communications between potential life throughout the Universe . If the speed of light is a limit , we will never communicate , however if there is some form of  universe wide intelligence , like a universe wide INTERNET HYPER SYSTEM . We can look forward to universe wide communication . 

1 hour ago, Area54 said:

Mike, it might have been helpful if you had bothered to read the objections made at multiple times in this thread. I shall summarise the main one here.

The definition of heirarchy you present is from the perspective of a human. A tiger, a cockroach, or a culture of Salmonella would have a different perspective. You have utterly failed to address that point so far.

Plus, what Mootanman said while I was typing this.

Well , I take your point . But I have deliberately chosen humans as the subject of the middle HIERACHY , as that is my , and I would have thought everybody else's interest . It is, at this stage of no interest to me , how God relates/ communicates  with animals . I am interested in how we relate to animals , which is why I chose the ' gold fish ' , as they are to hand . What I am interested in is 

" my interaction with fish , ( cross HIERACHY) , in order to gain insight into cross HIERACHY between God and Human , in the context of this subject of this thread . 

Eg. Concern for wellbeing, space available , number, food , behaviour , etc etc 

Even George Smoot said when he first saw his project recoding the FIRST image of the cosmic background radiation . 

" I FELT I was looking into the FACE of GOD " 

 

image.png

 

Ref George Smoot :-. COBE  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Smoot

COSMIC BACKGROUND RADIATION FIRST SIGHT . 

 

mike 

Edited by Mike Smith Cosmos
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Mike, you seem to be entirely missing the point. You have not demonstrated that any part of your heirarchy is valid. You just keep repeating what it is and what you believe about it. That is about as useful as a chess set in a rugby game. If you cannot at least make a serious attempt to justify your claims I shall have to conclude you are just trolling and I really will be out of here.

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2 hours ago, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

Yes , but those animals are probably , or likely , to ALL be in the same level of HIERACHY. I have picked fish  ( gold fish ) , because I have them near to hand to conduct simple experiments and observations with . So in my case at this stage the list is 1. True I could pad this out in the future should it deem necessary , with many fish and other animals to observe .  Which it would be necessary if there is a glimmer of a positive observation . 

The second HIERACHY, is that of Humans , of which I am an easy and ,to hand sample to Observe , and make conclusions on . There are some millions of others in this sample area, if necessary. 

Please define what would be a step above us, it's bad enough to you continue to use the word hierarchy as though we all know what you are talking about. From my point of view no such hierarchy exists and you are moving the goalposts around at light speed. 

 

2 hours ago, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

The God ( Particle ) , Higgs Boson , Photons, and Dark energy might be more difficult . Although there is much /many observation  in astronomy . The evidence for a living GOD , among the heavens is an interesting concept . It might make an interesting project to ' Prove ' that concept , but I think there is quite a lot of evidence for reason and conclusions . This comes out of history artefacts  , and human testimony . Not to mention , that many gaps remain unanswered in the Universe at large -- such as " what fueled the Big Bang in the first place . Currently a vacant spot in Universe history . Also the practically of communications between potential life throughout the Universe . If the speed of light is a limit , we will never communicate , however if there is some form of  universe wide intelligence , like a universe wide INTERNET HYPER SYSTEM . We can look forward to universe wide communication . 

 

Goddamn particle Mike, it was originally called the goddamn particle.  Please show some historical artifacts that are evidence of something "supernatural" and human testimony, especially hearsay testimony is worthless. Next you seem to be partial to the old god of the gaps idea which is just silly. What "fueled" the big bang is unknown possibly forever unknown but your speculation is no better than some brobdingnagian creature that eats dark matter and excretes universes and doesn't know it's own shit. The rest of this is just wishful speculation, as I have said earlier the power of a civilization says nothing about the individuals in it. 

2 hours ago, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

Well , I take your point . But I have deliberately chosen humans as the subject of the middle HIERACHY , as that is my , and I would have thought everybody else's interest . It is, at this stage of no interest to me , how God relates/ communicates  with animals . I am interested in how we relate to animals , which is why I chose the ' gold fish ' , as they are to hand . What I am interested in is 

" my interaction with fish , ( cross HIERACHY) , in order to gain insight into cross HIERACHY between God and Human , in the context of this subject of this thread . 

Eg. Concern for wellbeing, space available , number, food , behaviour , etc etc 

Even George Smoot said when he first saw his project recoding the FIRST image of the cosmic background radiation . 

" I FELT I was looking into the FACE of GOD " 

 

image.png

 

Ref George Smoot :-. COBE  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Smoot

COSMIC BACKGROUND RADIATION FIRST SIGHT . 

 

mike 

Why do you continue to assume there is something called god? Have you any evidence other than a desire? And taking George Smoot's comments to mean what you want us to see is more than a bit dishonest.. 

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10 hours ago, Area54 said:

Mike, you seem to be entirely missing the point. You have not demonstrated that any part of your heirarchy is valid. You just keep repeating what it is and what you believe about it. That is about as useful as a chess set in a rugby game. If you cannot at least make a serious attempt to justify your claims I shall have to conclude you are just trolling and I really will be out of here.

I am trying to understand what is going on ! I have no desire to " troll" , as you refer to it.  ( not totally certain what trolling means ? ) 

If you were sitting across the table from me , with a cup of coffee each , I would ask you to explain to me what you think is going on . 

I am currently trying to get my head around what researchers Nima Arkanani-Hamed and his team in the Institute of Advanced Studies  in New Jersey  is saying. They appear to have come up with a " the Amplituhedron" . Which may be getting at the root of Reality . Doing the same job as Feynman diagrams. 

Their work is being discussed in this weeks New Scientist where ' they think that this helps understand how gravity works at the smallest scales'

" Space -Time  and Quantum Mechanics , emerge as one . "  July 29 2017 New Scientist ( Page 28-31 ) by Anil - Ananthaswamy  Consultant to New Scientist. 

Suely , if things like this are going on at the smallest scales , then the researchers are getting near to understanding the issues I am raising ? Is that not so ? 

image.jpeg

New Scientist representation of the Amplituhedron.

( the proposed very core of space time , at the smallest scales) on work done by Ruth Britto, Freddy Cachazo, Bo Feng and Edward  Witten .  Twistors by Roger Penrose, 

Nima Arkani-Hamed and his team at the Institute of advanced studies New Jersey 

giving birth to  a multi-dimensional concatenation of polyhedrons :

.      The ......   AMPLITUHEDRON ...

If this is what makes up or made the universe at the smallest scales in my next HIERACHY  up , then so be it . 

"One merged space time and quantum mechanics as one and the same aspect of the underlying positive Geometry."  Quote  Arkani-Hamed. 

mike  

Edited by Mike Smith Cosmos
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9 hours ago, Moontanman said:

Please define what would be a step above us, .........

Goddamn particle Mike, it was originally called the goddamn particle.  Please show some historical artifacts that are evidence of something "supernatural" .....

...... What "fueled" the big bang is unknown possibly forever unknown ...

........as I have said earlier the power of a civilization says nothing about the individuals in it...........

Why do you continue to assume there is something called god? Have you any evidence other than a desire? ........

Well simply , mankind appears to be the top of the tree ( as regards intelligence) on Earth . So my question , and longing , is that there is some intelligence somewhere beyond what I see there is ,on earth . I hope so ! 

I am surmising that if we can see the gap there is between humans and fish , then it is to be hoped there is at least as much a gain in intelligence between , us as humans , and the next grade upwards ? 

If there is not . Then well we are in deep trouble , as we do not possess the skills or ' where-with-all ' to sort our future, do we ? Anymore than my fish in the pool, as the pool is too small ! And they do not possess the 'where- with- all ' to build a bigger , better , pool .  They need me to sort it ? Surely ? 

The Big Bang , I have commented about new theories in the New Scientist above . ( to Area 54 ) 

As regards God . Seems fairly logical to me, and there appears to be quite a lot of historic reference to it , over mankinds recent history , in most nations , past and current .  That's what a lot of the recent fighting has been about . Not that I agree , by no means , with all the fighting , but much has been over historic sites. Our history seems to have been ' peppered ' with this issue ! 

 

Mike 

Edited by Mike Smith Cosmos
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