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budullewraagh

Truth vs Regionalism

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(a continuation from the bush stem cell thread)

 

a few quotes:

 

i dont think it has anything to do with his own religious beliefs. the government has twisted religion to gain the support of the zealots, and has been successful. i don't think he cares enough personally to make the decision based on his own beliefs. rather, i think it is merely another means for appealing to the zealots and keeping the ignorant just that, ignorant. when science is hindered, ignorance prevails. it is in his interest to keep the united states behind in sciences. consider his voting base. as a general statement, the south is severely lacking when it comes to public education. stem cell research would not happen in the south, because of the zealots. this would make the north stronger and more advanced. consider the economic power of the north, compared to the south, which still has yet to recover from the civil war, or so it appears when compared to the north. money and knowledge are power. if the south doesn't want money/knowledge, bush will defend them by preventing such money/knowledge from being obtained by the north.
I agree with Bud that it's not about religious beliefs. It's about politics.

 

I don't think it's an active effort to keep the US behind in the sciences' date=' though -- I think it's a lack of understanding on the part of the far right about the important role science has played in our success, the ability of other countries to advance science without us, and an inability to look past certain ethical points to look at larger ethical considerations (i.e. they wouldn't necessarily even object on moral grounds if they looked at the whole picture objectively instead of ideologically).

 

I disagree with Bud's point about the south still recovering from the civil war, etc. You'd be hard pressed to find a more ignorant fool than a yankee who's confident in his knowledge that liberalism equals righteousness and that the northeast is the center of the civilized world. Typical blue-state foolishness. The kind of thinking that generates more failed Democratic candidates. You need to move past that kind of nonsense.

 

The problem we have right now in this country isn't the far right. It's the confluence of power in both extremes, to the detriment of the center. Our inability to compromise will, some day (hopefully not in my lifetime), be the death of this nation.[/quote']

"I don't think it's an active effort to keep the US behind in the sciences' date=' though -- I think it's a lack of understanding on the part of the far right about the important role science has played in our success, the ability of other countries to advance science without us, and an inability to look past certain ethical points to look at larger ethical considerations (i.e. they wouldn't necessarily even object on moral grounds if they looked at the whole picture objectively instead of ideologically)."

well, while it isnt entirely effective, it is a means for pushing one's agenda.

 

"I disagree with Bud's point about the south still recovering from the civil war, etc. You'd be hard pressed to find a more ignorant fool than a yankee who's confident in his knowledge that liberalism equals righteousness and that the northeast is the center of the civilized world. Typical blue-state foolishness. The kind of thinking that generates more failed Democratic candidates. You need to move past that kind of nonsense."

i knew the backlash was coming. kindly remove those words from my mouth and hand me some mouthwash. see, the problem is, while what i said is completely politically incorrect, i don't care and actually my statements were all accurate. no, i didn't say that liberalism isn't righteousness. i'm not into righteousness; it seems too...southern conservative christian for me. and no, i didn't say the northeast is the center of the civilized world. i have to say, however, that our education system beats the bloody tar out of that of the south. remember, certain districts start "american history" at reconstruction. then kids get to the AP exam and become confused. wait, the US didn't just come into existence during the late 1860s?? now of course, the south has its fine school districts and institutions, but overall, it is significantly lacking when compared to the northeast.

 

"The problem we have right now in this country isn't the far right. It's the confluence of power in both extremes, to the detriment of the center. Our inability to compromise will, some day (hopefully not in my lifetime), be the death of this nation."

the problem we have in this country is ignorance, hands down.[/quote']

Not really interested in responding to either a personal attack or a regional rah-rah. Pass and pass.
well' date=' you just did respond to what you implied to be either a "personal attack," a "regional rah-rah", or both.

 

in actuality, i merely pointed out the true differences in education between the northeast and the south. it's unfortunate, but undeniable that overall, the south lacks sufficient funding for their school systems. it's unfortunate, but undeniable that a great number of southern districts refuse to begin "american history" until the late 1860s. it is unfortuante, but undeniable that a great number of southern districts refuse to teach evolution. it is unfortunate, but undeniable that southern schools appear to have the tendency to place a lesser emphasis on the importance of academic merit. the truth is that overall, the northeast performs better academically.

 

now, one can call the above "slanderous," but without facts to support such a statement, one would look quite foolish. it is important to recognize the fact that apathy spawns ignorance. so be in denial, but the scores won't change significantly without active and conscious efforts towards improvement.[/quote']

I don't think I'm the one who's appearing foolish at the moment, but we can discuss the subject of regionalism if you like. I'd be interested in seeing someone try to support the position that the cultural elites of the northeastern states actually do have a point (as opposed to being the cultural fascists I believe they are). Why don't you start a new thread on it and summarize your position (like your points on education), and I will respond (and I promise not to Godwin it).

 

"I don't think I'm the one who's appearing foolish at the moment' date=' but we can discuss the subject of regionalism if you like. I'd be interested in seeing someone try to support the position that the cultural elites of the northeastern states actually do have a point (as opposed to being the cultural fascists I believe they are). Why don't you start a new thread on it and summarize your position (like your points on education), and I will respond (and I promise not to Godwin it)."

 

well, you label me a regionalist but you have yet to even address the issues i have raised. am i a cultural elitist? if recognizing the differences in education in the northeast and the south makes me an elitist, perhaps i am. but then being an elitist isn't so bad, is it? just comparing and contrasting like a good student of social sciences.

 

once again, i ask you to kindly remove certain words from my mouth. you speak of culture. i spoke of education. please define "cultural facist." i'm not so sure it would be wise to start a new thread on this; i have explained my position. i am curious as to how you could possibly defend your position.[/quote']

 

pangloss, there are a few things identified above that i would like you to address if possible

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Just a few points I should interject, since my entire pre-college education was in the south:

 

First, bud is right about the school funding. I would caution that funding =/= education in all cases (I got a higher quality education at a run-down inner-city school in Baton Rouge than I did at a suburban, well-funded and new school in Florida, and both were public), but the south's school system *is* awful and far behind that of the north.

 

However, about the "reconstruction" thing, I'd like to see sources for that claim, because that certainly was not my experience. I took history in several incarnations as I moved up in grades in the southern public schools, and never once did such an omission occur, especially not in my AP US History class as bud suggested. This was not the experience of any of my friends in various other schools or cities, either. If this does happen, it is unusual and certainly not representative of the whole of southern education.

 

Mokele

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the class that is taught in place of american history is "southern history." from word of mouth, i have heard that some schools require southern history, but do not require american history, and that it is more popular for people to take "southern history."

 

a quote from http://www.southernmessenger.org/Education.htm

" It would seem, however, that in 1999, again nearly 150 years after the

Southern independence movement, scholars and administrators would not be so

hesitant at the inclusion of accurate portrayals of Confederate and Southern

history in their efforts to educate the young people of America.

Yet this is far from the actual case. We have already seen a high profile

case in North Carolina where a course on Southern history was yanked from

the curriculum of a college, no less, because it was deemed as politically

incorrect."

 

that's the first source i found. will that suffice?

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Thanks. I'm not trying to dodge anything, but let me tackle this first point (about education) in as comprehensive a manner as I can, at which point I'll probably run out of steam and pause for a response, but I'll be happy to talk about the broader issue of regionalism (e.g. blue-state/red-state politics) as well.

 

 

it is in his interest to keep the united states behind in sciences. consider his voting base. as a general statement, the south is severely lacking when it comes to public education. stem cell research would not happen in the south, because of the zealots. this would make the north stronger and more advanced. consider the economic power of the north, compared to the south, which still has yet to recover from the civil war, or so it appears when compared to the north.

 

This is the main point that prompted my response. Just looking at the issue of education for a moment, I think that's a statement you've made, and therefore you need to defend, rather than vice-versa, but I'll be happy to post my thoughts.

 

The issue of public education always seems to come down to two areas of focus: "Spending" and "quality of education" (generally based on test results). What I want to do here is just mention a few points that I believe clearly contradict your statement that the South "has yet to recover from the civil war".

 

First, on the subject of spending, while NY does have the second-highest education spending after CA, it's worth noting that third is Texas and fourth is Florida. So a lot of this really has more to do with the population than any sort of regional dedication to education. ("School Funding, Taxes and Economic Growth", NEA, April 2004) However, there is still something to be said of the notion that more money is spent in New York. Per capital spending is generally higher in the NE versus the SE, but (and this is a key point here) the cost of living is also substantially higher in much of the NE versus the SE (see my "third" point below for sources on this). So surely "has yet to recover from the civil war" is a vastly inaccurate assessment.

 

Second, while overall jobs in education are declining (according to the NEA), New York shows much higher job losses than Florida, Alabama, South Carolina, Tennessee, and somewhat higher or about the same as North Carolina, Georgia, Virginia. Only Texas showed a substantially higher figure. When "amenity and competitiveness" was factored in, a lot of the southern states came out ahead of NY. (Ibid.)

 

Third, Teacher salaries are higher in NY/NJ than, say, FL/GA, but it also costs more to live there. For example, the average teacher salary in Georgia in 1999-2000 was $41,122, versus $51,020 in NY. (EVS: http://www.asbj.com/evs/05/EVS05_northeast.pdf and http://www.asbj.com/evs/05/EVS05_southeast.pdf). But according to MSN House & Home's fun little comparitive analysis tool, if you make $50,000 in New York, you only need $29,482 to have the same SOL in Georgia. So really the teachers there are ahead of the ones in New York. (http://houseandhome.msn.com/pickaplace/comparecities.aspx)

 

Fourth, on the subject of quality of education, while some NE areas place ahead of SE areas, it's worth noting that a lot of NE areas fall way behind a lot of SE areas. For example, go to this tool (http://houseandhome.msn.com/pickaplace/findcity.aspx) and ask it to spit out a report based on education being the ONLY criteria, set it for the US, and choose "7.0 or higher". You'll find that there are some schools in CT and NJ are near the top. But it's very revealing that the list is not at all isolated to the NE, which would support your regionalist assertion. California actually tops the list, and schools from Alabama, Florida, Georgia and Maryland are right there near the top. The list is rounded out by schools in the midwest, and in fact of that whole first page (20 entries), only 5 schools are from the NE. Yup, you got some good schools up there. But I see no sign here that the south is still recovering from the civil war!

 

 

So, without ducking the rest of the discussion, I'll throw it back to you for the moment: Can you defend your assertion that the South is still recovering from the Civil War?

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Let me go ahead and toss something out on another aspect of regionalism, while it's fresh on my mind. I don't mean this to be a comprehensive answer, by any stretch.

 

The point I want to make is that the transformation of the South from "pure Democratic block" to its current state is something that is (a) very misunderstood (especially by the far-left and the far-right), and (b) influential in a lot of different ways. It has affected the political landscape of the entire country.

 

In some (important) ways, the that change has had an impact on the competitiveness of the political environment all over the country. It even affects your internal elections in New York, bud. Yup, you read that right -- I'm saying that the transformation of the South has had an impact on how elections go in the North.

 

Or as Earl and Merle Black put it in "The Rise of Southern Republicans", "A newly competitive South means a newly competitive America". They spend an entire chapter making their case with some fascinating insights and statistics. Well worth a gander.

 

 

But getting back to the issue of regionalism, let me include another key point from the same book:

 

But if the old solid Democratic South has vanished, a comparably solid Republican South has not developed. Nor is one likely to emerge. Republican politicians hold majorities of the region's House and Senate seats, but their majorities are much smaller than those traditionally maintained by southern Democrats. Even more important, neither Republicans nor Democrats enjoy majority status among the southern electorate.

 

In other words, politics in the "new South" is now competitive. And adding in the point I made above, that competitiveness, born in the South, has been infused upon the rest of the nation.

 

 

Not bad for a bunch of uneducated po' folks digging their way out of the rubble of the civil war, huh?

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the class that is taught in place of american history is "southern history." from word of mouth, i have heard that some schools require southern history, but do not require american history, and that it is more popular for people to take "southern history."

 

Word of mouth is not reliable in any way, shape or form. At every school in the south which either I or my sister went to, US history was required, both at the middle and high school levels. The only thing that even slightly resembled a "southern history" course was the "louisiana history" course I had to take (in addition to, not instead of US history), which also did not skimp of the civil war or times before then.

 

" It would seem, however, that in 1999, again nearly 150 years after the

Southern independence movement, scholars and administrators would not be so

hesitant at the inclusion of accurate portrayals of Confederate and Southern

history in their efforts to educate the young people of America.

Yet this is far from the actual case. We have already seen a high profile

case in North Carolina where a course on Southern history was yanked from

the curriculum of a college, no less, because it was deemed as politically

incorrect."

 

that's the first source i found. will that suffice?

 

Given that your quote is only tangentially related to your claim, no, it won't. I don't dispute that the history books (along with all the other books) in many schools are obsolete or inaccurate. But that's a *far* cry from the sort of willful and enforced ignorance you claim, based on nothing but word of mouth.

 

First, I would like to see a *single* shred of proof that *any* southern public school does as you describe (relegating US history to elective status and requiring 'southern history', nothing less, since that was your claim).

 

Secondly, contingent upon your fulfillment of the first point, I would like to see statistics showing what percentage of schools this is true of.

 

Unless that second part is fulfilled and is over 50%, then your use of that bit of misinformation is nothing more than equal parts strawman fallacy and the very same regional elitism you are accused of.

 

Not bad for someone educated in the inferior depths of the South, eh?

 

Mokele

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BTW, I was educated at the high school level in public school in suburban Atlanta, and I can second Mokele's post. We were NOT taught "southern history" -- I don't really even know what that means. I didn't learn anything about Atlanta's history and only a smidgeon about Georgia's history in school. I learned American history. We also had AP history available (I took AP english instead -- from a PhD).

 

I will convey this amusing story, though it is a bit of a digression. When I got to college (Georgia Tech) I had a class in "US History since 1865" (note that title carefully). The class was taught by a visiting professor under a cultural diversity program who came over from Atlanta University (the famous collection of minority colleges that includes Morris Brown, Morehouse and Spellman). The entire course focused on the history of slavery in the US! We never could figure out if he just didn't read the title of the course correctly or he just didn't care.

 

So much for liberal concepts of diversity.

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i wouldn't call that book the definitive source of reason. the transformation of the south from "solid democratic" (ie, racist regionalist elitist wealthy and racist regionalist uneducated easily persuaded sharecroppers) to "solid republican" (ie, not as racist but still bursting at the seams with people unaesy about the fact that their great-great grandparents owned slaves, were rich, and had the fist of power crush them, and still filled with people with confederate flags) was actually just the affects of the populists. founded as a sort of agrarian revolt, the populist party found its base in the western farmers, who opposed the gold standard. in 1896, the democrats, under william jennings bryan, adopted many of the populists' views and the populist party, for all intents and purposes, dissolved. when the democrats adopted the populists' views, the great conversion occurred and the south became a solid republican region. of course the change affected all. it wasn't just the south that changed, you know, so don't get too full of yourself.

 

now, as for education, i have "http://www.psk12.com/rating/index.php" as a source. it is the "Public School Rankings Index."

 

unfortunately, for some statistics, i would have to pay $40/year, so bear with me.

 

unfortunately, florida does not ranks by "passing" or "failing" and only rates based on their own scale, competing with other schools in florida.

 

tennessee only reports the statistics of those who are "advanced" in a subject.

 

Virginia (elementary school):

"Rank School Division 3rd Gr

English

Pass 3rd Gr

Math

Pass 5th Gr

English

Pass 5th Gr

Math

Pass Total Graphs

1 Arlington Traditional Arlington 91.7 97.9 95.8 93.8 379.1

2 Tuckahoe Henrico 93.3 98.1 93.9 90.3 375.6

3 Bettie Weaver Chesterfield 91.6 95.4 95.4 90.8 373.3

4 Nuckols Farm Henrico 92.0 98.8 96.0 85.5 372.4

5 Short Pump Henrico 84.8 96.4 99.1 91.5 371.8

6 Jamestown Arlington 89.9 96.6 93.4 91.8 371.8

7 Shady Grove Henrico 95.2 93.3 93.0 87.7 369.2

8 Canterbury Woods Fairfax 89.7 96.2 93.4 86.8 366.1

9 Gayton Henrico 92.0 95.5 97.5 78.0 362.9

10 Churchill Road Fairfax 88.6 91.4 93.3 88.5 361.7

11 Fox Mill Fairfax 92.7 97.1 92.1 79.0 360.8

12 Clover Hill Chesterfield 88.6 95.2 95.0 80.9 359.7

13 Mantua Fairfax 91.7 94.4 89.7 83.3 359.1

14 Waterford Loudoun 90.3 96.8 92.9 78.6 358.5

15 Sleepy Hollow Fairfax 76.9 96.2 94.0 90.0 357.1

16 Spring Hill Fairfax 84.0 92.1 94.5 83.5 354.1

17 Maybeury Henrico 80.7 89.3 93.3 90.0 353.2

18 Robious Chesterfield 87.6 91.7 91.5 80.5 351.3

19 Great Falls Fairfax 77.3 89.1 97.1 87.5 351.0

20 Haycock Fairfax 79.1 88.4 94.9 88.5 350.8

21 Kent Gardens Fairfax 82.1 92.6 86.1 86.1 347.0

22 Glen Allen Henrico 86.1 90.1 85.9 83.8 345.9

23 Bon Air Chesterfield 89.8 92.9 88.0 75.0 345.7

24 White Oaks Fairfax 80.2 90.1 91.1 83.7 345.1

25 Hunt Valley Fairfax 87.5 92.0 88.4 76.7 344.7

26 Navy Fairfax 85.5 98.5 84.2 75.8 344.1

27 Seaford York 79.4 91.2 94.5 78.1 343.2

28 Fairhill Fairfax 80.5 95.2 86.7 80.4 342.8

29 Coventry York 79.3 88.8 91.7 82.8 342.7

30 Ashlawn Arlington 80.6 89.5 91.4 80.0 341.5

31 Raleigh Court Roanoke City 87.3 87.3 90.2 76.5 341.3

32 J. B. Watkins Chesterfield 80.9 90.1 89.8 80.3 341.1

33 Lincoln Loudoun 64.0 76.9 100.0 100.0 340.9

34 Taylor Arlington 80.0 80.0 97.5 82.5 340.0

35 Carver Henrico 84.6 87.5 91.7 75.9 339.7

36 John B. Dey Virginia Beach City 81.6 90.1 86.9 81.0 339.5

37 Willow Springs Fairfax 80.4 90.2 86.5 82.2 339.3

38 Wakefield Forest Fairfax 79.3 84.5 87.7 87.7 339.2

39 Springfield Park Henrico 85.6 83.6 91.9 77.8 338.9

40 Kingston Virginia Beach City 76.5 83.3 91.4 87.0 338.3

41 Union Mill Fairfax 80.9 92.2 82.5 82.5 338.1

42 W. W. Gordon Chesterfield 81.2 86.3 91.9 78.0 337.4

43 Sunrise Valley Fairfax 82.2 84.7 91.5 78.9 337.3

44 Mountain View Roanoke 76.1 82.6 95.1 83.3 337.1

45 Wolftrap Fairfax 84.8 90.2 87.3 74.7 337.0

46 Sangster Fairfax 79.6 86.4 90.9 78.5 335.4

47 Poplar Tree Fairfax 82.6 94.6 83.5 73.2 333.9

48 Forest Edge Fairfax 82.4 90.1 84.1 77.0 333.6

49 C. M. Bradley Fauquier 71.8 89.0 91.1 80.2 332.1

50 John Kerr Winchester City 78.4 78.4 90.4 84.6 331.9 "

 

Virginia (middle school):

"Rank School Division 8th Gr

English

Pass 8th Gr

Math

Pass Total Graphs

1 Kemps Landing Magnet Virginia Beach City 99.3 98.6 197.9

2 Cooper Fairfax 90.7 93.0 183.7

3 Longfellow Fairfax 90.3 92.2 182.6

4 Franklin Fairfax 88.1 88.5 176.7

5 Lake Braddock Secondary Fairfax 87.8 88.5 176.3

6 Irving Fairfax 86.2 87.2 173.5

7 Frost Fairfax 87.8 85.5 173.4

8 Byrd Henrico 87.0 85.4 172.4

9 Rocky Run Fairfax 86.6 84.1 170.7

10 Tuckahoe Henrico 84.4 84.6 169.0

11 Midlothian Chesterfield 85.9 83.0 169.0

12 George Mason Falls Church City 84.0 84.9 169.0

13 West Point West Point 87.1 81.4 168.6

14 Thoreau Fairfax 83.6 84.5 168.0

15 Swift Creek Chesterfield 80.7 86.2 166.8

16 Williamsburg Arlington 84.2 79.5 163.7

17 Short Pump Henrico 85.1 77.8 163.0

18 Blue Ridge Loudoun 82.8 79.7 162.5

19 Cave Spring Jr. High Roanoke 80.1 82.3 162.3

20 Highland High Highland 87.5 72.1 159.6

21 Lake Ridge Prince William 83.6 75.3 158.9

22 Key Fairfax 79.2 79.6 158.8

23 Robious Chesterfield 87.0 71.6 158.6

24 Moody Henrico 77.1 81.3 158.4

25 Robinson Secondary Fairfax 82.2 76.1 158.3

26 Lanier Fairfax 78.7 79.6 158.2

27 Lylburn Downing Lexington City 75.5 82.4 157.9

28 Thomas Eaton Hampton City 84.8 73.1 157.9

29 Swanson Arlington 82.8 74.8 157.6

30 Poe Fairfax 82.3 74.3 156.6

31 Great Bridge Chesapeake City 80.6 76.0 156.6

32 Stone Fairfax 76.5 79.9 156.3

33 Hughes Fairfax 77.5 76.7 154.2

34 Hidden Valley Jr. High Roanoke 77.5 75.8 153.3

35 H.H. Poole Stafford 79.1 73.2 152.3

36 John N. Dalton Int. Radford City 75.5 75.9 151.4

37 Poquoson Poquoson City 81.0 70.2 151.3

38 Seneca Ridge Loudoun 78.4 72.3 150.7

39 Farmwell Station Loudoun 78.5 72.2 150.7

40 Warrenton Fauquier 79.0 70.7 149.8

41 Daniel Morgan Winchester City 79.9 69.8 149.7

42 Hickory Chesapeake City 77.4 71.5 149.0

43 Jack Jouett Albemarle 76.2 72.7 148.9

44 Northside Roanoke 80.3 68.6 148.9

45 Blacksburg Montgomery 79.3 69.3 148.6

46 Dublin Pulaski 79.9 68.2 148.1

47 Grafton York 79.4 66.9 146.3

48 Kempsville Virginia Beach City 76.8 69.2 146.0

49 Brentsville District High Prince William 73.1 72.5 145.5

50 Chickahominy Hanover 75.5 69.8 145.3 "

 

Virginia (high school):

"Rank School Division English

Pass Algebra II

Pass Total Graphs

1 Thomas Jefferson Fairfax 100.0 99.5 199.5

2 Lake Braddock Secondary Fairfax 86.7 69.9 156.7

3 Langley Fairfax 94.2 62.2 156.4

4 Oakton Fairfax 92.3 63.4 155.8

5 Rappahannock Co. Rappahannock 86.0 63.6 149.6

6 Loudoun Valley Loudoun 76.8 72.0 148.7

7 Riverheads Augusta 75.2 69.6 144.8

8 Richmond Community Richmond City 94.7 50.0 144.7

9 Colonial Heights Colonial Heights City 89.9 52.3 142.2

10 Potomac Falls Loudoun 84.0 56.0 140.0

11 South Lakes Fairfax 85.1 53.6 138.7

12 Tucker Henrico 88.2 50.2 138.4

13 Murray Albemarle 66.7 71.4 138.1

14 West Springfield Fairfax 83.3 53.8 137.1

15 Mclean Fairfax 88.5 48.3 136.8

16 Kempsville Virginia Beach City 85.6 50.8 136.3

17 Yorktown Arlington 83.3 52.8 136.1

18 Blacksburg Montgomery 79.9 55.2 135.1

19 Robinson Secondary Fairfax 85.2 49.9 135.1

20 Wilson Memorial Augusta 76.1 58.8 135.0

21 Woodson Fairfax 89.6 45.1 134.7

22 James Monroe Fredericksburg City 72.9 60.6 133.5

23 Clover Hill Chesterfield 89.6 43.5 133.1

24 Godwin Henrico 84.4 48.4 132.8

25 Marshall Fairfax 83.0 49.8 132.8

26 Powhatan Powhatan 86.5 45.5 131.9

27 Maury Norfolk City 83.4 48.5 131.9

28 Chantilly Fairfax 79.6 51.5 131.1

29 George Mason Falls Church City 79.8 51.2 131.0

30 Louisa County Louisa 82.2 48.4 130.6

31 Broad Run Loudoun 79.9 49.6 129.5

32 Cave Spring Roanoke 88.3 40.0 128.3

33 West Potomac Fairfax 83.8 44.2 128.1

34 Hayfield Secondary Fairfax 88.1 39.4 127.5

35 Frank W. Cox Virginia Beach City 71.0 56.3 127.3

36 John Handley Winchester City 83.6 43.0 126.5

37 Salem Salem City 87.9 38.5 126.4

38 St. Paul Wise 76.2 50.0 126.2

39 Madison Fairfax 80.0 46.1 126.1

40 Freeman Henrico 88.3 37.4 125.7

41 William Monroe Greene 67.1 57.9 125.0

42 Midlothian Chesterfield 89.7 34.5 124.2

43 Fairfax Fairfax 78.0 45.9 123.9

44 Radford Radford City 76.8 46.0 122.9

45 William Fleming Roanoke City 67.5 55.0 122.5

46 Centreville Fairfax 80.0 42.0 122.0

47 Lee Fairfax 84.9 35.3 120.1

48 Poquoson Poquoson City 82.3 37.8 120.1

49 Bayside Virginia Beach City 64.5 55.1 119.7

50 First Colonial Virginia Beach City 75.4 43.3 118.7"

 

one can see a significant decrease in the scores of students as they mature. in the end, only 37.8% of students from poquoson school passed algebraII.

 

as much as i would like to compare these scores to massachusetts, california, new york or connecticut, i cannot, as the statistics are not based on "pass/fail." actually, most of the northern states are based on the percentages of students at the "advanced" level. actually, i just found some interesting stats!

 

so, for louisiana in 2002 (btw, what does "PARISH" mean?):

 

"Rank School Parish 10th Gr

Lang Arts

Master 10th Gr

Math

Master 11th Gr

Science

Master 11th Gr

Soc. Stud.

Master Total Graphs

1 Caddo Parish Caddo 64.0 64.0 71.0 53.0 252.0

2 John Mcdonogh Orleans 0.0 59.0 82.0 77.0 218.0

3 Baton Rouge East Baton Rouge 63.0 56.0 50.0 39.0 208.0

4 Mandeville St. Tammany 32.0 36.0 49.0 24.0 141.0

5 Andrew Jackson Fundamental St. Bernard 32.0 37.0 43.0 23.0 135.0

6 Benjamin Franklin Orleans 30.0 57.0 35.0 13.0 135.0

7 Mckinley East Baton Rouge 33.0 43.0 31.0 26.0 133.0

8 Fontainebleau St. Tammany 32.0 43.0 34.0 23.0 132.0

9 Lafayette Lafayette 31.0 42.0 36.0 20.0 129.0

10 Northshore St. Tammany 31.0 34.0 40.0 21.0 126.0

11 Vidrine Evangeline 27.0 24.0 38.0 22.0 111.0

12 Bolton Rapides 33.0 23.0 28.0 25.0 109.0

13 West Monroe Ouachita 31.0 45.0 18.0 14.0 108.0

14 Grand Lake Cameron 32.0 27.0 30.0 17.0 106.0

15 Saline Bienville 30.0 38.0 36.0 0.0 104.0

16 Slidell St. Tammany 27.0 35.0 27.0 15.0 104.0

17 West Feliciana West Feliciana 33.0 36.0 25.0 10.0 104.0

18 Airline Bossier 29.0 30.0 27.0 17.0 103.0

19 East Beauregard Beauregard 27.0 45.0 21.0 10.0 103.0

20 Pitkin Vernon 15.0 23.0 47.0 18.0 103.0

21 C.E. Byrd Caddo 32.0 32.0 18.0 20.0 102.0

22 Anacoco Vernon 19.0 35.0 35.0 12.0 101.0

23 Harrisonburg Catahoula 19.0 27.0 35.0 20.0 101.0

24 Grace King Jefferson 21.0 25.0 28.0 25.0 99.0

25 Hathaway Jefferson Davis 19.0 34.0 31.0 15.0 99.0

26 Deridder Beauregard 30.0 36.0 24.0 8.0 98.0

27 Hahnville St. Charles 21.0 21.0 27.0 28.0 97.0

28 Mcmain Magnet Secondary Orleans 44.0 28.0 17.0 8.0 97.0

29 Central East Baton Rouge 25.0 30.0 24.0 17.0 96.0

30 Destrehan St. Charles 31.0 30.0 22.0 13.0 96.0

31 Block Catahoula 14.0 28.0 23.0 29.0 94.0

32 Captain Shreve Caddo 27.0 24.0 19.0 24.0 94.0

33 St. Amant Ascension 22.0 38.0 20.0 14.0 94.0

34 Doyle Livingston 16.0 33.0 33.0 11.0 93.0

35 Weston Jackson 26.0 28.0 25.0 14.0 93.0

36 Zachary East Baton Rouge 26.0 27.0 26.0 14.0 93.0

37 Bell City Calcasieu 14.0 37.0 29.0 11.0 91.0

38 Berwick St. Mary 27.0 32.0 21.0 11.0 91.0

39 Ponchatoula Tangipahoa 22.0 25.0 28.0 16.0 91.0

40 North Vermilion Vermilion 26.0 35.0 23.0 6.0 90.0

41 Quitman Jackson 22.0 32.0 21.0 15.0 90.0

42 Holden Livingston 13.0 38.0 26.0 12.0 89.0

43 Pine Prairie Evangeline 31.0 19.0 26.0 13.0 89.0

44 Pineville Rapides 24.0 26.0 20.0 19.0 89.0

45 Ruston Lincoln 25.0 27.0 17.0 20.0 89.0

46 Boothville-Venice Plaquemines 6.0 50.0 29.0 3.0 88.0

47 Denham Springs Livingston 20.0 31.0 24.0 13.0 88.0

48 Parkway Bossier 19.0 25.0 31.0 13.0 88.0

49 Rosepine Vernon 32.0 38.0 9.0 9.0 88.0

50 Sicily Island Catahoula 6.0 39.0 39.0 4.0 88.0 "

 

now, compare that to massachusetts (not nearly as good as new york, california)

 

"Rank School District County 10th Gr

ELA

Adv 10th Gr

Math

Adv Total Graphs

1 Boston Latin Boston Suffolk 60.0 76.0 136.0

2 Weston Weston Middlesex 54.0 59.0 113.0

3 Acton Boxborough Reg Acton-Boxborough Middlesex 48.0 63.0 111.0

4 Concord Carlisle Concord-Carlisle Middlesex 51.0 59.0 110.0

5 Newton South Newton Middlesex 52.0 58.0 110.0

6 Wayland Wayland Middlesex 54.0 55.0 109.0

7 Dover Sherborn Reg H Dover-Sherborn Norfolk 52.0 50.0 102.0

8 Newton North Newton Middlesex 49.0 52.0 101.0

9 Belmont Belmont Middlesex 49.0 51.0 100.0

10 Bromfield Harvard Worcester 50.0 50.0 100.0

11 Wellesley Sr Wellesley Norfolk 47.0 52.0 99.0

12 Westwood Westwood Norfolk 47.0 50.0 97.0

13 Medfield Senior Medfield Norfolk 47.0 49.0 96.0

14 Tahanto Reg Berlin-Boylston Reg Worcester 57.0 39.0 96.0

15 Lexington Lexington Middlesex 46.0 48.0 94.0

16 Hingham Hingham Plymouth 50.0 43.0 93.0

17 Sharon Sharon Norfolk 47.0 45.0 92.0

18 Westford Academy Westford Middlesex 42.0 50.0 92.0

19 Winchester High Scho Winchester Middlesex 43.0 48.0 91.0

20 Nashoba Regional Nashoba Worcester 47.0 43.0 90.0

21 Norwell Norwell Plymouth 50.0 40.0 90.0

22 Cohasset Cohasset Norfolk 47.0 42.0 89.0

23 Andover Andover Essex 36.0 52.0 88.0

24 Ashland Ashland Middlesex 51.0 37.0 88.0

25 Lynnfield Lynnfield Essex 47.0 41.0 88.0

26 Westborough Westborough Worcester 41.0 47.0 88.0

27 Needham Needham Norfolk 43.0 44.0 87.0

28 Hamilton Wenham Reg Hamilton-Wenham Essex 46.0 40.0 86.0

29 Lincoln Sudbury Reg Lincoln-Sudbury Middlesex 40.0 46.0 86.0

30 University Park Camp Worcester Worcester 43.0 43.0 86.0

31 Algonquin Reg Northboro-Southboro Worcester 36.0 49.0 85.0

32 Shrewsbury Sr Shrewsbury Worcester 46.0 39.0 85.0

33 Amherst Regional Amherst-Pelham Hampshire 39.0 44.0 83.0

34 Groton Dunstable Reg Groton-Dunstable Middlesex 39.0 42.0 81.0

35 Bedford Bedford Middlesex 40.0 40.0 80.0

36 Pentucket Reg Sr Pentucket Essex 45.0 33.0 78.0

37 Brookline Brookline Norfolk 34.0 43.0 77.0

38 Longmeadow Longmeadow Hampden 36.0 41.0 77.0

39 Francis W Parker Francis W Parker Cha Middlesex 34.0 39.0 73.0

40 Masconomet Regional Masconomet Essex 38.0 35.0 73.0

41 Nauset Regional Nauset Barnstable 42.0 31.0 73.0

42 Hopkins Academy Hadley Hampshire 25.0 47.0 72.0

43 Boston Latin Academy Boston Suffolk 23.0 48.0 71.0

44 Ipswich Ipswich Essex 30.0 41.0 71.0

45 Mansfield Mansfield Bristol 37.0 34.0 71.0

46 Frontier Reg Frontier Franklin 41.0 28.0 69.0

47 Millis Millis Norfolk 44.0 24.0 68.0

48 Sutton Sutton Worcester 35.0 33.0 68.0

49 Hopkinton Hopkinton Middlesex 34.0 33.0 67.0

50 Nantucket Nantucket Nantucket 29.0 38.0 67.0 "

 

of course, these are different tests, but they are suggestive, now are they not?

 

interestingly enough, alabama, mississippi, west virginia, etc are not mentioned, but would be, were there more interest. really, check the poll on the site.

 

education is quintessential to a successful society. for prosperity to flourish, a region must educate its children properly. we can see a difference already.

 

 

just a note, the KKK is still 5,500 members strong, plus there's the "white aryan resistence" and the "church of the creator" to deal with.

 

not to mention the phone company that calls its competitors sinners.

 

unfortunately, a great number of my points i cannot use statsistics for. there is no statistic for the number of bigots in an area. there is no statistic for the number of confederate flags in an area. and unfortunately, i can find nothing on performance in alabama schools.

 

actually, scratch that! statistics from a random school from alabama (on this site it actually takes like 5 minutes to find any one particular school, so don't think i wasted my time looking around for a school with poor performance) known as "autaugavilla school" (a high school):

 

"Scale: Percentage of students meeting the standards

 

 

Grade 7

 

Writing: Holistic Composition

7% (This school-2002)

38% (State average-2002)"

 

source: http://www.greatschools.net

 

the fact that this school is 96% black and 83% of students receive free or reduced-price lunch may be relevant.

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Congratulations on a breathtaking display of regionalism and cultural elitism. I'll try to remember to prop a confederate flag in the back of my truck the next time I go to the opera. (Well, I'd have to buy a truck first. And a confederate flag.) (This is a wholly appropriate response, by the way, given that your post was entirely composed under the logical fallacy of "hasty generalization".)

 

At any rate, I certainly don't need to worry about whether or not I've put any words in your mouth. Your feelings about Southerners are quite clear:

 

the transformation of the south from "solid democratic" (ie, racist regionalist elitist wealthy and racist regionalist uneducated easily persuaded sharecroppers) to "solid republican" (ie, not as racist but still bursting at the seams with people unaesy about the fact that their great-great grandparents owned slaves, were rich, and had the fist of power crush them, and still filled with people with confederate flags) was actually just the affects of the populists

 

just a note, the KKK is still 5,500 members strong, plus there's the "white aryan resistence" and the "church of the creator" to deal with.

 

not to mention the phone company that calls its competitors sinners.

 

And the miniscule memberships of a few crackpot extremist groups (many similar of which can obviously be found in the Northeast) can hardly be used as supporting evidence of an overall culture that's "still recovering from the Civil War". You've completely failed to support that assertion on a cultural, economic, or educational level.

 

 

 

As for the statistics, you seemed to dismiss mine in the following manner:

 

i wouldn't call that book the definitive source of reason.

 

But in fact most of my statistics came from other points of origin, such as the National Education Association, realtors associations, the American School Board Journal, and so forth. I wasn't relying on Professors Black (whose book was published by Harvard Press, where both men received PhDs in social science) at all.

 

Your statistics, in comparison, are cherry-picked to show a specific pair of failures in the SE and a specific success in the NE. To explain the cherry-picking, you imply that better statistics were not available. But in fact I've already quoted and summarized better (and still objective) statistics. You could have read those sources and responded to them, but you chose to ignore them instead. But I guess I'm just an ignorant Southerner, not worthy of point-by-point response.

 

 

Allow me to summarize the discussion:

 

- I don't necessarily disagree with the statement: "Public schools are better in the North". The numbers I posted earlier suggest a slight, marginal advantage in spending and test scores, which may or may not be offset by a higher cost of living and higher jobs losses in education. There may be a slight advantage in public education in the Northeast.

 

- But the claim that the South is "still recovering from the Civil War" has been completely debunked. You asked me to support it, and I did. You've failed to support your assertion with anything other than cherry-picked statistics and politically irrelevent extremist groups with tiny memberships.

 

- Thanks for helping me support my claim that "You'd be hard pressed to find a more ignorant fool than a yankee who's confident in his knowledge that liberalism equals righteousness and that the northeast is the center of the civilized world." I reiterate my assertion that this is "Typical blue-state foolishness. The kind of thinking that generates more failed Democratic candidates. You need to move past that kind of nonsense."

 

- I have debunked these points from you, with specific (and clearly objective) examples which you have ignored:

- "it's unfortunate, but undeniable that overall, the south lacks sufficient funding for their school systems"

- "it's unfortunate, but undeniable that a great number of southern districts refuse to begin "american history" until the late 1860s" (see mine and Mokele's posts)

- "it is unfortuante, but undeniable that a great number of southern districts refuse to teach evolution" (actually I didn't debunk this one specifically, but I would like to see your evidence that there are southern school districts that do not teach evolution. You believe it's true? Prove it.)

- "it is unfortunate, but undeniable that southern schools appear to have the tendency to place a lesser emphasis on the importance of academic merit"

 

 

am i a cultural elitist?

 

I leave that for dear reader to decide. The word "I" is capitalized, by the way.

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"(many similar of which can obviously be found in the Northeast)"

do tell of them. also, i'd like to add that i don't believe that 40 years has changed everybody to a sort of all-inclusive ideology.

 

"overall culture that's "still recovering from the Civil War"."

i never said anything of culture, so i guess you actually are putting words into my mouth.

 

"Your statistics, in comparison, are cherry-picked to show a specific pair of failures in the SE and a specific success in the NE."

actually, i already addressed this in a number of ways. i didn't even use california or new york as examples. massachusetts isn't the greatest we have, not by a long shot. louisiana isnt the worst you have, not by a long shot. i only used alabama to show the extreme failure of the education system in alabama at the expense of children, many of whom are the descendants of slaves.

 

"There may be a slight advantage in public education in the Northeast. "

no, the advantage is actually quite significant. please see http://www.greatschools.net

 

"You've failed to support your assertion with anything other than cherry-picked statistics and politically irrelevent extremist groups with tiny memberships."

with regard to the stats, see above. a little known fact: throughout the history of the united states, before emancipation, the average southerner owned approximately 0 slaves.

 

"- Thanks for helping me support my claim that "You'd be hard pressed to find a more ignorant fool than a yankee who's confident in his knowledge that liberalism equals righteousness and that the northeast is the center of the civilized world.""

that is both false and irrelevant.

 

 

" - "it's unfortunate, but undeniable that overall, the south lacks sufficient funding for their school systems""

you have debunked that statement? show me some statistics.

 

"- "it's unfortunate, but undeniable that a great number of southern districts refuse to begin "american history" until the late 1860s" (see mine and Mokele's posts)""

two personal accounts say absolutely nothing.

 

"- "it is unfortunate, but undeniable that southern schools appear to have the tendency to place a lesser emphasis on the importance of academic merit""

this is impossible to prove directly, and you have yet to "debunk" it.

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Not interested in supporting your claim that there are southern school districts which don't teach evolution, eh? Or that "a great number of southern districts refuse to begin 'american history' until the late 1860s"?

 

K.

 

I note for the record that in this thread I have done as you've asked and supported my assertions, while you have ignored my requests for you to do the same.

 

 

a little known fact: throughout the history of the united states, before emancipation, the average southerner owned approximately 0 slaves.

 

News flash: We don't own them today either. I guess we're too busy driving around in our confederate-flagged pickup trucks, attending KKK meetings and calling sinners on behalf of the phone company, as you put it.

 

 

"(many similar of which can obviously be found in the Northeast)"

do tell of them.

 

Surely you don't need me to prove that any ideological fringe and extremist groups (both left and right) exist anywhere in the Northeastern United States! Come on.

 

(Just exactly how utterly perfect are these Northern states anyway? Do you think they'll let me come up for a visit, and do I need to shower the pig sh*t off my blue-jean coveralls first? It'll have to wait, though -- I'm watching Hee Haw at the moment.)

 

 

"overall culture that's "still recovering from the Civil War"."

i never said anything of culture, so i guess you actually are putting words into my mouth.

 

In fact cultural labelling and categorization are all over your posts, as demonstrated by this quote from you earlier:

 

the transformation of the south from "solid democratic" (ie, racist regionalist elitist wealthy and racist regionalist uneducated easily persuaded sharecroppers) to "solid republican" (ie, not as racist but still bursting at the seams with people unaesy about the fact that their great-great grandparents owned slaves, were rich, and had the fist of power crush them, and still filled with people with confederate flags) was actually just the affects of the populists

 

just a note, the KKK is still 5,500 members strong, plus there's the "white aryan resistence" and the "church of the creator" to deal with.

 

not to mention the phone company that calls its competitors sinners.

 

Are you actually reading my posts, or is it too much trouble for you to think down to my level?

 

 

"Your statistics, in comparison, are cherry-picked to show a specific pair of failures in the SE and a specific success in the NE."

actually, i already addressed this in a number of ways. i didn't even use california or new york as examples. massachusetts isn't the greatest we have, not by a long shot. louisiana isnt the worst you have, not by a long shot. i only used alabama to show the extreme failure of the education system in alabama at the expense of children, many of whom are the descendants of slaves.

 

And yet you're unable to prove that, because you say the statistics are unavailable, when in fact I've already provided them.

 

California is not in the Northeast, by the way. Clearly a slip of your blue-states-are-superior tongue there.

 

 

"There may be a slight advantage in public education in the Northeast. "

no, the advantage is actually quite significant. please see http://www.greatschools.net

 

No, the advantage is clearly quite small. Please see the statistics I linked earlier, which came from multiple respected, objective sources, not just one single, relatively unknown source that doesn't even try to compare regions.

 

But my real point was that it's clearly a gross exaggeration to say that the South is still recovering from the civil war. That's the position you asked me to defend, and I have done so.

 

 

"- Thanks for helping me support my claim that "You'd be hard pressed to find a more ignorant fool than a yankee who's confident in his knowledge that liberalism equals righteousness and that the northeast is the center of the civilized world.""

that is both false and irrelevant.

 

It's demonstrably true based on your own statements, and directly relevant to the discussion at hand and what you've asked me to do in this thread.

 

 

" - "it's unfortunate, but undeniable that overall, the south lacks sufficient funding for their school systems""

you have debunked that statement? show me some statistics.

 

I have. They're still there, posted above, in spite of your continued inability to see or respond to them.

 

 

"- "it's unfortunate, but undeniable that a great number of southern districts refuse to begin "american history" until the late 1860s" (see mine and Mokele's posts)""

two personal accounts say absolutely nothing.

 

On this subject our opinions have greater value than your opinion, since we've actually been through that process.

 

Of course, if you'd care to back your assertion with some kind of evidence, I'm all ears.

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not to mention the phone company that calls its competitors sinners.

 

By the way, just as a side note, this sort of thing is hardly limited to the right. Here's an interesting example of a telephone company that gives a share of its profits to left-wing causes, and in fact has been doing so for twenty years:

 

http://www.workingassets.com/index.cfm

http://www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/july99/072899c.htm

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I don't want to get into the "better schools" debate. Nor have I any personal experience with how Southern schools now teach the history of the Civil War. I will point out, however, that Southern authors about the Civil War have often differed from Norther authors in two ways.

 

1. The causes of the war. Northern authors seem to see the existence of slavery as the major cause of the Civil War. Southern authors tend to contend that the issue was State's Rights and cite Northern economic exploitation of the South.

 

2. Language. Southern authors (often) call it still The War Between the States. Northern authors call in the Civil War.

 

You can still see the uses of word choice today when politicians campaigning in the South evoke the past by use of the words "state's rights." The very word Confederacy was chosen to indicate that the arrangement the states had with the government as a whole was a bit more like a club that one could resign from. In the North, the political rallying cry of the time was "The Preservation of the Union."

 

Dealing with the slavery issue still makes lots of folks feel squeamish.

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I agree with your points, and I would add that it's possible that those are factors that contribute to common misperceptions about education in the southeast.

 

It should be noted, however, that the fact that southerners at the time of the war saw the issue as one of "state's rights" is also taught in the North. As it should be. It's important that we recognize, for example, the Southern inability to compromise on what they should have understood to be a fundamental issue of human rights. It helps us to understand the importance of compromise today. We ALL need to learn from the South's mistake. Not just southern men. All of us are equally capable of repeating their mistake, and we see signs of this every day. (If anything, we seem to be getting WORSE at it.)

 

We should also look hard at why they (incorrectly) saw it as a "state's rights" issue, so that we may contrast it with the relevent applications of that issue today. State's rights ARE important today (just not for the reasons or to the extent that the confederates believed). Less than a week ago it was cited by Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Conner in the dissenting opinion regarding the subject of medical marijuana use. There is a reason why the framers withheld all rights not specifically given to the federal government to the states. (Anyone who doesn't believe in the importance of that, just ask the nearest gay or lesbian person to explain it to you.)

 

And on top of all that, we should pay attention to the tendency that you and and bud have hinted at, which some in the South may still feel today (even though they are NOT taught it in school), who may, for example, miscontrue our honored respect for the fallen Confederate soldiers to mean that we should glorify the horrendous thing they were, in actuality, fighting for.

 

As William Faulkner put it in "Intruder in the Dust",

 

For every Southern boy fourteen years old, not once but whenever he wants it, there is the instant when it's still not yet two o’clock on that July afternoon in 1863, the brigades are in position behind the rail fence, the guns are laid and ready in the woods and the furled flags are already loosened to break out and Pickett himself with his long oiled ringlets and his hat in one hand probably and his sword in the other looking up the hill waiting for Longstreet to give the word and it's all in the balance, it hasn't happened yet, it hasn't even begun yet, it not only hasn't begun yet but there is still time for it not to begin against that position and those circumstances.... This time. Maybe this time....

 

Yes, I believe I understand your's and bud's concerns.

 

I hope you can understand mine.

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