Sayonara Posted June 3, 2003 Share Posted June 3, 2003 What is the purpose - if any - of nursery rhymes in infant development? It's fairly obvious that some stories have a clear moral lesson, but what is the value in, say "Jack and Jill"? Is it 'If you go up a hill it will hurt a lot and somebody will make a real hash of your first aid treatment'? And what's the significance of a giant anthropomorphic egg falling off a wall? Any thoughts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaKiri Posted June 3, 2003 Share Posted June 3, 2003 Oh dear. Oh dear. You should never touch a naughty. You know what happens if you touch a naughty? You catch NAUGHTYPOX. And that's not very nice, I can tell ye! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Edward Posted June 3, 2003 Share Posted June 3, 2003 teach kiddies all about politics and how diseases are the badness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted June 3, 2003 Author Share Posted June 3, 2003 Originally posted by Radical Edward teach kiddies all about politics and how diseases are the badness. I don't see the connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1917 Posted June 3, 2003 Share Posted June 3, 2003 Something as outrageous (and perhaps slightly trippy) would surely encourage imagination and appreciation of basic things, like eggs break when you lob them at walls and fragile people shouldnt perch on high ledges, else risk their outer shell's structural integrity being compromised. A friend of mine once said 'if the animators at Disney still took acid, kids these days wouldnt have to'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Edward Posted June 3, 2003 Share Posted June 3, 2003 Originally posted by greg1917 A friend of mine once said 'if the animators at Disney still took acid, kids these days wouldnt have to'. now that is quotable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavajoEverclear Posted June 7, 2003 Share Posted June 7, 2003 Good or Bad quote? I think its a funny quote. Yeah I don't know whats up with Nursery rhymes, they are old and don't even reflect modern ideas, so what on earth are they teaching once a child learns what they mean? I guess they aren't nessisarily bad, but they really aren't good either, just a waste of words--- which in itself could be a bad thing. I probably wont teach my kids nursery rhymes, whats the point? Leftovers of cultural evolution, like the appendix is left over from biological evolution (actually I personally believe we are created by God, so I don't know why we have an appendix, I really don't care----- just using the concept, because I do believe evolution can be proven to occur as we have obviosly evolved dogs by way of unnatural selection) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skye Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 There's the indirect benefit of memorising the words of a whole song, and learning rhythm, rhyme and melody. Mostly they keep kids from burning things for a short stretch of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavajoEverclear Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 Good point skye but why don't we replace the material used in the function with things more applicable and useful and such. I mean I think its high time we revise things, the newest rhymes are probably hundreds of years old, and we still haven't gotten around to updating stuff? How lazy are we? I think that true love, which is what a parenting relationship should be is all about communication, and I don't see what the message of nursury rhymes communicates except ideals that clash with what our actually pertinent to modern times. Ok maybe modern mentality is related to those non-pertinent things, but is that a good thing? Whatever the answer is--- examine it at least, don't give up on excuses for unquestioned methods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted June 8, 2003 Author Share Posted June 8, 2003 Jack and Jill went up the hill,To fetch a pail of water. Jack fell down and broke his crown, And Jill came tumbling after. etc. Some nice thoughts in this thread but nothing that explains the function of that particular rhyme. It's like some crazy mystery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavajoEverclear Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 My explanation is that the psychological function of the poem was not considered by its creator. Our continuance of it is out of sick habit and lack of choosing replacements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skye Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Under the system of measurement adopted during the reign of Queen Elizabeth I: 1 mouthfull = 1 cubic inch 1 handfull = 2 mouthfull 1 jack = 2 handfull 1 jill = 2 jacks 1 cup = 2 jills 1 pint = 2 cups 1 quart = 2 pints If 1 cubic inch = 14.7 mL, how many cups to 1 litre? ANSWER: 1 L = 68 cubic inches = 68 mouthfull = 34 handfull = 17 jacks = 8.5 jills = 4.25 cups. Let me tell you a story about jacks and jills. Remember the nursery rhyme about: Jack and Jill went up the hill, to fetch a pail of water. Jack fell down and broke his crown, and Jill came tumbling after. In the mid-1600s, English king Charles I placed a tax on beer and spirits to raise money for his own pleasure. At that time drinks were sold by the jackpot which had the volume of one jack, and the jill. His subjects resented this new tax. They resented it even more when he reduced the size of the jack and jill to increase his revenue even further. Under his tough rule protests had to be disguised so the people made up the rhyme about jack and jill. The words about "jack and jill went up the hill" refers to the increase in price for a jack and jill of drink as the volume was decreased; "jack came down" is about the measure returning to its original size; "broke his crown" refers to Charles I being almost toppled from the throne as the people revolted; and "jill came tumbling after" means that the jill returned to the original size. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From here ...it doesn't make alot of sense but then it was the 1600's. Also this site is interesting: http://www.arts.uwaterloo.ca/ENGL/courses/engl208c/esharris.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fafalone Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 What's more interesting/scary is that you know that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted June 9, 2003 Author Share Posted June 9, 2003 Errr... the citation was at the bottom faf Great info! Was there any mention of the second verse there? Also, was there any explantion as to why this encrypted protest became a song sung to young children, who shouldn't be drinking even if they can afford it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atinymonkey Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Originally posted by Sayonara³ And what's the significance of a giant anthropomorphic egg falling off a wall? Any thoughts... Like Jack and Jill, Humpty has a history too, according to google:- History: From the East Anglia Tourist Board in England: "Humpty Dumpty was a powerful cannon during the English Civil War (1642-49). It was mounted on top of the St Mary's at the Wall Church in Colchester defending the city against siege in the summer of 1648. (Although Colchester was a Parliamentarian stronghold, it had been captured by the Royalists and they held it for 11 weeks.) The church tower was hit by the enemy and the top of the tower was blown off, sending "Humpty" tumbling to the ground. Naturally the King's men* tried to mend him but in vain." * NB: The "men" would have been infantry, and "horses" the cavalry troops. As to why children are told a silly rhyme about a cannon, I have no idea. Perhaps just to screw with young minds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted June 9, 2003 Author Share Posted June 9, 2003 Originally posted by atinymonkey As to why children are told a silly rhyme about a cannon, I have no idea. Perhaps just to screw with young minds This is the question isn't it. Egg... cannon... I'm not sure I see the link. Maybe cannon were terrifying to young children in days gone by, and eggs were a source of fuzzy teddy-bear-like warmth and feelings of safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavajoEverclear Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Hah, this is hilarious. My theory is that parents used these to put into their childrens heads things they thought important as information, or something like that. You can look up more details on it but I learned that Ring Around the Rosie is about the black death. The ring is some sort of ritual infected people did, maybe to try to cure themselves, they had Posies in their pockets because they thought the good smell would over power the smell of rotting flesh (which they believed then spread the plague)----- I cant remember what ashes refers to, maybe skin turning black, or maybe it was another ritual. And then we all fall down---- that is self explanatory of the inevitable end. Rather sick don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skye Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Kids TV shows here have sung 'Yellow Submarine' by The Beatles. Maybe it's a good modern analogy because it was a song that was intended for adults, has no real meaning for kids (aside from "Acid is great!"), but is sung to them because it makes them happy. "Was there any mention of the second verse there?" No, they actually asked if anyone knew what it could mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted June 10, 2003 Author Share Posted June 10, 2003 Ring 'o rosies refers to the circular patterns of red welts caused by bubonic plague. The idea of a ritual of the infected is quite entertaining though Posies bit was accurate enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KinG Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 I cant remember what ashes refers to, maybe skin turning black, or maybe it was another ritual. And then we all fall down---- that is self explanatory of the inevitable end. Rather sick don't you think? [/b] ashes could have been the burning of the infested bodies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chibodee Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 A lot of the Nursery Rhymes have meaning behind it like Ring around the Rosey Ring around the Rosey = is the rash Pocket full of Posies = is the nosegays that people carried around with them to fend off the foul smell of people suffering from the plague Ashes,Ashes = is the burning of the bodies We all fall down = they all died Why on earth they call that a Nursery Rhyme I'll never know but there are others: Litte Jack Horner, Sat in a corner, Eating a Christmas pie, He put in his thumb, And pulled out a plum, What a good boy am I. true meaning(or is said to be about) : During the reign of Henry VIII at the time of the Dissolution of the Monasteries.In order to curry favour with the King, Richard Whiting, the Abbot of Glastonbury in Somerset,sent him a gift. The gift was a pie which contained the title deeds to twelve manor houses, and the person entrusted with delivering this gift to the King was Jack Horner, the abbot's steward. On his way to London, Jack Horner stole one of the deeds and soon after the Dissolution, the Manor of Mells became the residence of Thomas Horner, whose descendants lived there until 1975. If I can find/recall the others I'll post them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chibodee Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Bwah HA there is a true meaning to Jack and Jill: "Jack" was referred to as King Louis XVI, who was beheaded "lost his crown" followed by his queen Marie Antoinette "Jill, who came tumbling after" more to come eventually Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atinymonkey Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 That's what we like to call 'untrue'. It's an English nursery rhyme, and it is about mesures of liquids. We still serve spirits in Gills (or Jills in the rhyme) and the explanation was posted previously. We had a big thing with Gin at the time, and found it important our mesures were not changed (hence they are still in use today!). Where did the connection of King Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette come to mind? Louis isn't really similar to Jack, and Marie does not really sound like Jill. Is this something a teacher mentioned once? N.B. we do have very funny ones about the French, but as a kingdom that has a strong monarchy we didn't really mock regicide very much. If the general population had found it funny, we obviously would not still have a monarchy now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blike Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 the monarchy doesn't actually do much, does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squintz Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Maybe the nursery ryhmes were taught as a history lesson. Like Author in Skyes link said at the end of his site maybe the songs are just catchy easy to remember jingles. This would be a great way to pass a history test. But then im not sure if they even had schools back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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