Knowledge Enthusiast Posted May 12, 2017 Share Posted May 12, 2017 (edited) According to the law of conservation of energy, energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it transforms from one form to another. If that is so, then how is it the case that there is energy in the universe? Is the reason because the big bang led to the creation of an imbalanced amount matter and anti-matter that annihilated until there was only matter left in the universe? According to Einstein, anything with mass curves space creating a force we describe as gravity. Gravitational force creates potential energy that transforms into kinetic energy until equilibrium is reached. Therefore, the curvature of space caused by the mass of particles is fuelling the universe with energy. Can anyone tell me what I am missing or misunderstanding? I only have a college level physics and mathematics background. Edited May 12, 2017 by Knowledge Enthusiast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klaynos Posted May 12, 2017 Share Posted May 12, 2017 A good question. The answer is basically that we don't know. The big bang is a model of the expansion of the universe from a very short time after t=0 until now. We don't know what happened before that but it looks like either the energy has always existed or the time symmetry was broken. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted May 12, 2017 Share Posted May 12, 2017 To expand on what Klaynos said, conservation of energy is the result of time-translation symmetry. If the laws of physics changed at some point in time, energy would not be conserved across that boundary. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knowledge Enthusiast Posted May 12, 2017 Author Share Posted May 12, 2017 A good question. The answer is basically that we don't know. The big bang is a model of the expansion of the universe from a very short time after t=0 until now. We don't know what happened before that but it looks like either the energy has always existed or the time symmetry was broken. To expand on what Klaynos said, conservation of energy is the result of time-translation symmetry. If the laws of physics changed at some point in time, energy would not be conserved across that boundary. Well, there must be at least one innate and eternal property that the universe has because even if one is as skeptical as Descartes, the ability to think means that there is something rather than nothing, and something cannot spontaneous appear out of nothing if nothing doesn't have at least one innate and eternal property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted May 12, 2017 Share Posted May 12, 2017 Well, there must be at least one innate and eternal property that the universe has because even if one is as skeptical as Descartes, the ability to think means that there is something rather than nothing, and something cannot spontaneous appear out of nothing if nothing doesn't have at least one innate and eternal property. Time may be an emergent property, so, if it is, then our post-big bang temporal notions concerning before it emerged don't apply. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted May 12, 2017 Share Posted May 12, 2017 Well, there must be at least one innate and eternal property that the universe has because even if one is as skeptical as Descartes, the ability to think means that there is something rather than nothing, and something cannot spontaneous appear out of nothing if nothing doesn't have at least one innate and eternal property. If the negative gravitational potential energy of the universe is large enough in magnitide, it's possible that the net energy is zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted May 12, 2017 Share Posted May 12, 2017 The whole question of whether is energy is conserved or not in GR is not simple: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/energy_gr.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Dynamic Motion Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 (edited) According to the law of conservation of energy, energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it transforms from one form to another. If that is so, then how is it the case that there is energy in the universe? Is the reason because the big bang led to the creation of an imbalanced amount matter and anti-matter that annihilated until there was only matter left in the universe? According to Einstein, anything with mass curves space creating a force we describe as gravity. Gravitational force creates potential energy that transforms into kinetic energy until equilibrium is reached. Therefore, the curvature of space caused by the mass of particles is fuelling the universe with energy. Can anyone tell me what I am missing or misunderstanding? I only have a college level physics and mathematics background. I like that subject very much ! In a way, its like i said before in an other post , that << energy can only be detected with the presence of matter,, it can maybe stated in a different way but never the less matter still a part of the answer ...and must be a part of the equation . I do believe. Who would thing of a perpetual motion machine build from scratch with the use of Energy Impossible . Energy cannot be renewed from energy ,,only from a force and that force as i know it is the natural G F. plus a physical force . Edited May 13, 2017 by Roger Dynamic Motion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beecee Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 the ability to think means that there is something rather than nothing, and something cannot spontaneous appear out of nothing if nothing doesn't have at least one innate and eternal property. Speaking scientifically, this "something from nothing" appears to be the only answer/solution, although as yet, it is still speculative. What other scientific answer is there? An infinite universe? I see that as much harder to accept. https://www.astrosociety.org/publications/a-universe-from-nothing/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 Speaking scientifically, this "something from nothing" appears to be the only answer/solution, although as yet, it is still speculative. What other scientific answer is there? An infinite universe? I see that as much harder to accept. https://www.astrosociety.org/publications/a-universe-from-nothing/ One that has always been here is a lot easier to comprehend than one that came out of nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordred Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 Or turtles all the way down cyclic models such as LQC bounce model Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 Or turtles all the way down cyclic models such as LQC bounce model I was actually thinking of the Turtle Universe model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beecee Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 One that has always been here is a lot easier to comprehend than one that came out of nothing. You think so? What is your definition of nothing? Space and time, [spacetime] as we know them, did have a beginning and the matter that evolved via phase transitions and such, will also come to an end as far as we know. Perhaps what some define as nothing, is what has always been there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensei Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 (edited) Or turtles all the way down cyclic models such as LQC bounce model I will provide link to wikipedia, so OP will be able to read about it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loop_quantum_cosmology Edited June 12, 2017 by Sensei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moreno Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 (edited) I afraid that if we accept our Universe is absolutely eternal in materialistic sense of this word it leads to philosophical paradoxes and things which contradict human mind. For example: if life is capable to self-organization and eternal development then in eternal Universe we suppose to have eternal life which already achieved infinite level of development, etc. It would be more logical to accept for the Materialists to assume that our Universe exist quite limited amount of time and self-created out of "nothing". Or assume that their concept of "time" is incorrect. Edited June 12, 2017 by Moreno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 I afraid that if we accept our Universe is absolutely eternal in materialistic sense of this word it leads to philosophical paradoxes and things which contradict human mind. I don't suppose the universe cares much about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Dynamic Motion Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 (edited) According to the law of conservation of energy, energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it transforms from one form to another. If that is so, then how is it the case that there is energy in the universe? Is the reason because the big bang led to the creation of an imbalanced amount matter and anti-matter that annihilated until there was only matter left in the universe? According to Einstein, anything with mass curves space creating a force we describe as gravity. Gravitational force creates potential energy that transforms into kinetic energy until equilibrium is reached. Therefore, the curvature of space caused by the mass of particles is fuelling the universe with energy. Can anyone tell me what I am missing or misunderstanding? I only have a college level physics and mathematics background. Well, what I have always understood, that is; energy cannot detected its own presence and one cannot verified the presence of energy if separated from matter So, what created Energy? if it is not the presence of ''particles Matter'' in space Edited June 12, 2017 by Roger Dynamic Motion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Well, what I have always understood, that is; energy cannot detected its own presence and one , cannot verified the presence of energy if separated from matter You can't separate energy from matter, it's a property of matter, like color or shape or mass. You can change the properties, but you can't separate them from the matter they're a property of. Can you separate the density of a piece of iron from the iron itself? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiot Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 (edited) You can't separate energy from matter, it's a property of matter, like color or shape or mass. You can change the properties, but you can't separate them from the matter they're a property of. Can you separate the density of a piece of iron from the iron itself? Careful, you will be telling him about extensive, intensive and don't care properties next. And they are state secrets. Edited June 12, 2017 by studiot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Dynamic Motion Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 (edited) You can't separate energy from matter, it's a property of matter, like color or shape or mass. You can change the properties, but you can't separate them from the matter they're a property of. Can you separate the density of a piece of iron from the iron itself? Not more that I can separate the weight of one pound of dusted lead to a pound of a solid block of lead . You can't separate energy from matter, it's a property of matter, like color or shape or mass. You can change the properties, but you can't separate them from the matter they're a property of. Can you separate the density of a piece of iron from the iron itself? You can't separate energy from matter, quote / what happen in a fission reaction to the energy lost ? Edited June 12, 2017 by Roger Dynamic Motion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Dynamic Motion Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 (edited) You can't separate energy from matter, it's a property of matter, like color or shape or mass. You can change the properties, but you can't separate them from the matter they're a property of. Can you separate the density of a piece of iron from the iron itself? Not more that I can separate the weight of one pound of dusted lead to a pound of a solid block of lead . You can't separate energy from matter, it's a property of matter, like color or shape or mass. You can change the properties, but you can't separate them from the matter they're a property of. Can you separate the density of a piece of iron from the iron itself? You can't separate energy from matter, Quote}Not more that I can separate the weight of one pound of dusted lead to a pound of a solid block of lead . quote / what happen in a fission reaction to the energy lost ? Edited June 13, 2017 by Roger Dynamic Motion -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 Not more that I can separate the weight of one pound of dusted lead to a pound of a solid block of lead . You haven't separated the weight (a property) from the material. what happen in a fission reaction to the energy lost ? Some of it goes in to the kinetic energy of the fission products. Some of it is released as photons (gamma or X rays). None of it is released "pure energy" separate from anything else. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Dynamic Motion Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 You haven't separated the weight (a property) from the material. Some of it goes in to the kinetic energy of the fission products. Some of it is released as photons (gamma or X rays). None of it is released "pure energy" separate from anything else. and the mass is conserved ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 and the mass is conserved ? Mass-energy is conserved. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrP Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 (edited) RDM - think about it... what is given off in a fission reaction? What is radiation made off?..... Now look at your question again. # - sorry - this was in reply to post#20.... before I read page 2 of this thread. Edited June 13, 2017 by DrP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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