Jump to content
HongKongEvil

Time dilation dependence on direction

Recommended Posts

 

12 hours ago, michel123456 said:

The analogy with length contraction is pure coincidence, I guess.

Or not. Are the laws of physics a single thing that enties everything ( the way we see things on a daily basis), or are the laws of perspective totally independent of Relativity? (as it seems to be the case at first sight).

And respectively, can Relativity ignore the fact that objects appear smaller as their distance from the observer increase? And not taking count of this effect when representing the distortion of objects that move at near to c velocity?

The arm does look smaller or larger depending on your perspective. . . but if you actually made a measurement and sent a light beam (or a radio signal or even used a measuring rod that was at rest with respect to your arm) you would happen to find the length had remained unchanged in BOTH situations. So. . . no length contraction. . . bad analogy. 

When you talk about the laws of perspective being independent of Relativity note the difference between what a camera or perhaps even a human being could potentially see and what kind of raw measurements we could make in which these sort of perceptual effects wouldn't come into it. You get the SAME PERCEPTUAL effects in CLASSICAL PHYSICS and we rightly so do not designate them as actual length changes but this is because of the specific collection of dynamical/kinematical laws we are assuming to then analyze this. The same is in special relativity in which length contraction is usually treated as the sort of frame dependent observation that is consistent with Lorentzian transformations while what you would see is (c) instead of (b) so you CANNOT go off of pure visual observations so to speak to find this contraction but you would measurably notice it in special relativity,

PWAug19Appell-fig2a_1200-635x1518.thumb.jpg.7a0e73252c9146de461f811686fc10f6.jpg 

Not only that. . . are you just going to ignore the meat of my previous posts. . . anything to say. . . the laws of optics are not ignored in special relativity rather they are amended yielding the above image (c) rather than the classical optical image (e). If you desire to chalk it up to CLASSICAL OPTICS then please be my guest and explain how this can be the case that in special relativity we seem to measure/record lengths as being shorter when in reality they are not supposed to be but we measure them as. 

Further, there isn't entirely something wrong with the philosophical question of whether it's the dynamical laws that give rise to or are fundamental to the kinematical ones or vice versa as other philosophers in spacetime philosophy have claimed that dynamical symmetries must be symmetries of spacetime. Dissenters have argued that we should flip the arrow of explanation from the kinematically explaining dynamical laws (spacetime structure -> dynamical laws) to seeing them as rather fundamental (dynamical laws -> spacetime structure). The question then of whether the Lorentz length contraction is more real in one perspective or the other one isn't really a question that would get a wrong answer in this situation as if we emphasized dynamical considerations then the objects from other perspectives do contract seemingly (dynamical laws require us to measure them as shortened) or it's the spacetime structure that results in our. . . wait for it. . . length measurements to result in being shorter. In either situation it wouldn't be any less real or entirely more perceptual

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, The victorious truther said:

Not only that. . . are you just going to ignore the meat of my previous posts. . . anything to say. . .

Michel has established that he's spent 20 years denying relativity. There are many, many hijacked threads over the decades, any that have certain keywords (in this case, "time, direction"), turned into 6+ pages of failed attempts to get him personally to accept something about SR. He's stated in this thread that he's not interested in relativity, and of all the hundreds and hundreds of answers to his repeated questions, not a single one of them he acknowledges as an answer to his questions. The only time I've seen any calculation or attempt to work through a problem, is when he's twisting his beliefs and made-up definitions into a nonsensical answer that confirms that relativity is wrong. Trying to understand relativity is destructive to his goals, and completely avoided. So the answer is yes, anything that shows relativity working will be ignored. If you're enjoying explaining it, that's good. If you're hoping Michel will learn something, ... I wouldn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, michel123456 said:

Nicely presented. Except that intuition would say that the guy who covered the long path through the corners would be older than the one going straight away, while the result of the twin paradox is the contrary.

You would think this if you didn't consult the spacetime interval in which \( s^{2} = (ct)^{2} - x^{2} = (c\tau)^{2}\). NOTE that the traveler happens to have a longer path through spacetime and together with the objectively long path they traveled in space some of that distance in SPACETIME that they happened to traverse has some of that temporal component eaten up by the distance they traveled. 

The spacetime interval for the person at rest is: 

\[ \tau = t_{person at rest} \]

For the twin who (because he was non-inertial) was objectively traveling a longer path through spacetime they started and ended the journey at the same spot yielding in terms of the rest frame time \( \tau \) or it took \( \tau \) time for them to leave then come back: 

\[  (c\tau)^{2} = (ct_{traveler})^{2} + x^{2} \]

They traveled objectively some certain distance \( x \) and using your knowledge of pythagorean theorem you notice that the length of the one side (the time by the traveler) couldn't exceed the length of the two others. Objectively given they traveled away there was no way the time of the traveler could in fact exceed or even equal that of the time given by the clock at rest if it must abide by special relativity and likewise the spacetime interval. 

\[ t_{traveler} \neq \tau \]

@joigus Did I do this right? 

14 minutes ago, md65536 said:

Michel has established that he's spent 20 years denying relativity. There are many, many hijacked threads over the decades, any that have certain keywords (in this case, "time, direction"), turned into 6+ pages of failed attempts to get him personally to accept something about SR. He's stated in this thread that he's not interested in relativity, and of all the hundreds and hundreds of answers to his repeated questions, not a single one of them he acknowledges as an answer to his questions. The only time I've seen any calculation or attempt to work through a problem, is when he's twisting his beliefs and made-up definitions into a nonsensical answer that confirms that relativity is wrong. Trying to understand relativity is destructive to his goals, and completely avoided. So the answer is yes, anything that shows relativity working will be ignored. If you're enjoying explaining it, that's good. If you're hoping Michel will learn something, ... I wouldn't.

Always bound to come across somebody like this on any forum. . .

Edited by The victorious truther

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, michel123456 said:

Nicely presented. Except that intuition would say that the guy who covered the long path through the corners would be older than the one going straight away, while the result of the twin paradox is the contrary.

Time for the free falling trajectory is actually a maximum, not a minimum.

Unintuitive? Perhaps, but that's the way it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.