Feasibility of new energy delivery paradyme

[elektrolyte]

I am wondering about the feasibility of re-tooling gas stations (petrol stations) as follows:-

 

>>> Instead of delivering hydrocarbon fuel (petrol) to a vehicle with an ICE, they would recycle the in-vehicle battery electrolyte stored in the traditional fuel tanks of an EV

 

Factors to consider would include:-

- Reconfigure EV in-vehicle systems to monitor and recycle the battery electrolyte with fresh electrolyte from vehicle gas tank

- EV would attend a gas station periodically, which would pump out the spent electrolyte from the vehicle holding tank and pump in new 'charged' electrolyte

- Gas stations would have device/appliance to re-charge and recycle spent electrolytes

 

I would appreciate advice on this concept regarding:-

 

- Technical feasibility of in-vehicle batteries to accommodate this technique

(ie would pumping in a 'fresh' electrolyte, effectively re-charge the batteries instantly ??)

- Cost effectiveness of technique

- Major risks

 

Thanks in advance

deboerr, Australia

 

[Bender]

I don't think the energy is stored in the electrolyte.

 

Replacing the entire battery is possible, but most feasible for eg taxi or bus companies where all vehicles are the same model.

[Ken Fabian]

Flow batteries like Vanadium Redox store energy in liquid electrolytes - draining and replacing electrolyte would recharge the battery. You wouldn't be able to re-purpose hydrocarbon fuel infrastructure to do it though. But currently Li-Ion performs better and yes, recharge times are an issue. A quick battery swap system might be possible, as Bender says.

[swansont]

Spills will happen.

 

Why not swap out the whole battery?

[Bender]

Why not swap out the whole battery?

I can see several issues:

- batteries are not always easily accessible

- batteries degrade. How are you going to deal with different customers dropping and buying batteries with different degradation level?

- standardisation between manufacturers

 

That's why I mostly see possibilities in lease cars, taxis, car sharing companies ...

You need a large enough netwerk.

[swansont]

I can see several issues:

- batteries are not always easily accessible

- batteries degrade. How are you going to deal with different customers dropping and buying batteries with different degradation level?

- standardisation between manufacturers

That's why I mostly see possibilities in lease cars, taxis, car sharing companies ...

You need a large enough netwerk.

You'd need to standardize via voluntary cooperation. Those who comply gain benefits of using the battery replacement network. Nobody forces companies to use e.g. AA batteries, but since that's a choice that's available, that's how you design the device.

 

Batteries could be a subscription business. Pay an annual fee to some clearinghouse, and you always get a usable battery in their licensed networks.

[Danijel Gorupec]

Batteries could be a subscription business. Pay an annual fee to some clearinghouse, and you always get a usable battery in their licensed networks.

I did not understand... does this fee includes energy cost or just manipulation cost?

 

 

BTW, I detected several problems with battery leasing model:

 

- Returning a not-entirely-empty battery and requesting a 'full' one. You should of course expect to pay only for the difference. But I am not sure if we have a reliable method to determine how much energy there is in the battery...or?

 

- Possible excessive self-discharge of overly old batteries. Who pays for this?

 

- Battery abuse (overcharge, overcurrent, over/undertemperature usage...) that might age the battery quickly and increase self-discharge. What prevents me to do that to leased battery?

 

- Fire caused by malfunctioned battery. I guess that this part will be solved by insurance companies.

 

 

Still I think that battery leasing is a viable model and many car-owners may not even own batteries at all. Probably each leased battery pack will have to have a government-calibrated metering device.

[Bender]

It could work with a fixed fee, rather than based on energy consumption.

[swansont]

I did not understand... does this fee includes energy cost or just manipulation cost?

 

 

BTW, I detected several problems with battery leasing model:

 

- Returning a not-entirely-empty battery and requesting a 'full' one. You should of course expect to pay only for the difference. But I am not sure if we have a reliable method to determine how much energy there is in the battery...or?

 

- Possible excessive self-discharge of overly old batteries. Who pays for this?

 

- Battery abuse (overcharge, overcurrent, over/undertemperature usage...) that might age the battery quickly and increase self-discharge. What prevents me to do that to leased battery?

 

- Fire caused by malfunctioned battery. I guess that this part will be solved by insurance companies.

 

 

Still I think that battery leasing is a viable model and many car-owners may not even own batteries at all. Probably each leased battery pack will have to have a government-calibrated metering device.

Not sure how any of this applies. If you are swapping out a battery, why does anyone care if it's empty or only half empty? That's not any way to cheat the system.

 

Batteries couldn't be overly old if the company doing the swapping is in control of them.

 

The car owner is swapping batteries, not charging them, much like filling up a tank with gas/petrol.

It could work with a fixed fee, rather than based on energy consumption.

Or both. A fixed fee that ultimately pays for replacing the battery (akin to insurance), and a fee every time you swap, like a fillup.

[mistermack]

Batteries could be chipped, so that the dealer can read off how much power has been drawn from it, and charge accordingly.

[EdEarl]

I think battery developments will make this plan unnecessary. Battery development is currently increasing charge rates, specific energy, and number of recharges at about 5% per year. The Tesla mega factory is supposed to reduce production costs, and additional mega factories are already being planned. That 5% yields about 1.3x improvement after five years, and about 1.6x after ten years. That isn't a spectacular rate of improvement, but it is significant. Changing the petrol infrastructure to service flow batteries would take at least ten years. Within five years the cost of battery powered vehicles should be equal or lower than ICE vehicles, and charging stations are already widely available for Tesla cars and increasing for others.

 

I prefer that the petroleum and coal cartels collapse from inactivity; their owners and managers have been poor stewards of the Earth.

[swansont]

charging stations are already widely available for Tesla cars and increasing for others.

 

 

 

Depends on what "widely available" means to you. There are less than 1000 supercharger stations in the US and Canada

https://www.tesla.com/supercharger

 

So less than one per 3,000 square miles (or 7,600 square kilometers)

 

But in their business model, dense-packed stations is not a necessity, because basically every owner has a charging station (of some sort) at home. Their charging stations outside of high-density population areas are spaced for charging up when on long-distance travel over major highways.

 

The problem with this paradigm is that people who don't own a home, or live in a community with charging stations, is not going to be a customer. "Cheaper than an ICE car" isn't going to matter if you can't charge your car overnight.

[Bender]

I think battery developments will make this plan unnecessary. Battery development is currently increasing charge rates, specific energy, and number of recharges at about 5% per year. The Tesla mega factory is supposed to reduce production costs, and additional mega factories are already being planned. That 5% yields about 1.3x improvement after five years, and about 1.6x after ten years. That isn't a spectacular rate of improvement, but it is significant. Changing the petrol infrastructure to service flow batteries would take at least ten years. Within five years the cost of battery powered vehicles should be equal or lower than ICE vehicles, and charging stations are already widely available for Tesla cars and increasing for others.

 

I prefer that the petroleum and coal cartels collapse from inactivity; their owners and managers have been poor stewards of the Earth.

This can only work if new batteries don't need rare elements. The price of lithium has increased dramatically already, and there might simply not be enough of it to replaced all ICE cars.

[EdEarl]

The lithium supply is limited, but we can replace existing ICE. https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Is-There-Enough-Lithium-to-Maintain-the-Growth-of-the-Lithium-Ion-Battery-M

[Ken Fabian]

Depends on what "widely available" means to you. There are less than 1000 supercharger stations in the US and Canada

https://www.tesla.com/supercharger

 

So less than one per 3,000 square miles (or 7,600 square kilometers)

 

But in their business model, dense-packed stations is not a necessity, because basically every owner has a charging station (of some sort) at home. Their charging stations outside of high-density population areas are spaced for charging up when on long-distance travel over major highways.

 

The problem with this paradigm is that people who don't own a home, or live in a community with charging stations, is not going to be a customer. "Cheaper than an ICE car" isn't going to matter if you can't charge your car overnight.

I think we will see parking spaces increasingly fitted with charging facilities, potentially by induction, without any plugs or leads. I don't know how feasible but perhaps a kind of mobile electricity account could be used; you deal with your own power company wherever you charge your EV and possibly do an exchange of what your PV fitted home is feeding to the network for what you use elsewhere.

[EdEarl]

I think we will see parking spaces increasingly fitted with charging facilities, potentially by induction, without any plugs or leads. I don't know how feasible but perhaps a kind of mobile electricity account could be used; you deal with your own power company wherever you charge your EV and possibly do an exchange of what your PV fitted home is feeding to the network for what you use elsewhere.

As batteries and autopilots improve, transportation will change. First, taxi service will become inexpensive and fast enough to displace at least some private ownership of cars. STOL aerocars will be viable, but are likely to be too expensive for many people. If taxi services offer both ground and air taxis, longer trip times can be reduced significantly. Hyperloop should reduce times for the longest trips over land with air service providing overseas travel. Taxis would carry passengers to and from hyperloop and air terminals.

 

If such a taxi service becomes ubiquitous, the total number of vehicles will be about 20% of current worldwide fleets, because taxis will be used 80-90% of the time and parked 10-20% of the time; whereas, currently cars are parked 90% of the time and used infrequently. Such a service would need hands free charging stations, which might be induction or robot connected. How this kind of transportation system would affect the numbers and distribution of EV chargers is unknown.