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Would the world be a better place without religion?


Itoero
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Yep, but I've just never heard of it it as a reasonable argument.

It wasn't a response to a reasonable argument. It was merely an expression of what I feel like when adults in the 21st-century believe in psychopathic nonsense such as that in this meme.

I'm not the bombastic, hateful, person you think I am. Koti can attest to this.

Edited by Tampitump
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So why is your emotional response better than my measured response?

It wasn't any better or any worse. Wasn't intended to be either/or. It was merely an expression of my misgivings with this particular ideology. I'm not opposed to certain aspects of Christianity. But the central teachings of it I think are grotesque and terrible. And it is frustrating when grown-ups read these things and think that they are good moral precepts to live by. My frustration could not be greater in the face of this reality.
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And it is frustrating when grown-ups read these things and think that they are good moral precepts to live by. My frustration could not be greater in the face of this reality.

 

 

Imagine my frustrations when so called grown ups think the bible has a moral aspect?

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I have been following this, and I thought I would discuss a few things that were mentioned since I posted last.

 

Dimreeper is talking a lot about contentment, but he has yet to explain why contentment is important or why advancement in our understanding of contentment should not come along with advancement in psychological science. Should we feel content about climate change? Is that good contentment?

 

As for what an atheist or non-religious person might replace religion with, I'm not sure I see what needs replacing. To the extent that religion depends on truth-independent motivations, I see it as a more complicated form of morality. For me, people with good intentions cannot do good without good information, and the spread of information is generally good. My motivations are truth-contingent. If I don't want you to burn yourself, I tell you that the pan is still hot when it is true that it is still hot. It seems that many religious people think this is too simple, that there are too many people with bad intentions to simply tell people the truth. Over complicating morality in this way may lead to all sorts of problems. Not only may good people make bad decisions, but psychopaths might abuse this way of thinking. Psychopaths are the biggest liars of them all, and they do it for selfish reasons. They could easily take advantage of a moral framework wherein the morally right thing to say and the true thing to say are infrequently aligned. Take for example bigots who use Leviticus to force homosexuals into the shadows, or wealthy, elite businessmen who are currently on the top of the economic food-chain and who use the denial of climate change and denial of biological science to oppose regulations that would upset the status quo. A reduction in religion doesn't have to be viewed as a loss. It could in some sense be seen as a move toward a simpler moral framwork. Nothing to replace.

Edited by MonDie
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I have been following this, and I thought I would discuss a few things that were mentioned since I posted last.

 

Dimreeper is talking a lot about contentment, but he has yet to explain why contentment is important

 

Because a contented populace doesn't fear an uncertain future, tolerates what others hate and is comfortable with what they have rather than being jealous of those with more; all of which allows them to be at peace with the world and themselves.

 

Or would you prefer a discontented populace, that fears what it can't change and hates those it perceives as a threat? That path leads to war and all the atrocities we've witnessed and have yet to witness.

 

Should we feel content about climate change? Is that good contentment?

 

 

 

We should do what we, individually, can do and be content with that, railing against what one can't change is not only futile but can only harm oneself.

 

or why advancement in our understanding of contentment should not come along with advancement in psychological science.

 

 

 

It has yet to achieve that goal but I sincerely hope it does.

 

 

 

Over complicating morality in this way may lead to all sorts of problems. Not only may good people make bad decisions, but psychopaths might abuse this way of thinking. Psychopaths are the biggest liars of them all, and they do it for selfish reasons. They could easily take advantage of a moral framework wherein the morally right thing to say and the true thing to say are infrequently aligned. Take for example bigots who use Leviticus to force homosexuals into the shadows, or wealthy, elite businessmen who are currently on the top of the economic food-chain and who use the denial of climate change and denial of biological science to oppose regulations that would upset the status quo. A reduction in religion doesn't have to be viewed as a loss. It could in some sense be seen as a move toward a simpler moral framwork. Nothing to replace.

 

 

 

Again with this insistence that morals have anything to do with what the bible/s are trying to teach, FFS they are not and as a psychologist I'd think you'd know better.

 

How do you dissuade the greedy from plying their trade? Make it illegal?

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Do you think the Bible will dissuade them..?

 

 

Not now that most don't believe, but it did.

 

Imagine if your every move was monitored and the threat was eternal suffering and you believed that was true, how greedy would you be?

 

Sometimes the carrot isn't enough.

How often do fraudsters prosper when their target isn't greedy?

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Not now that most don't believe, but it did.

Imagine if your every move was monitored and the threat was eternal suffering and you believed that was true, how greedy would you be?

Debatable. It did not really help to dissuade the RCC and later the evangelists to collect from the suffering and sins of others. Also cannot help to think about that caveat of last-minute forgiveness on the cross, or that given by the Roman Catholic priest to the Mafia boss on his dead bed.

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Debatable. It did not really help to dissuade the RCC and later the evangelists to collect from the suffering and sins of others. Also cannot help to think about that caveat of last-minute forgiveness on the cross, or that given by the Roman Catholic priest to the Mafia boss on his dead bed.

 

 

All of which happened when politics bleeds understanding; what benefit does continued blame have when they are about to die?

 

The important aspect of repentance is only beneficial when the recipient has time to make amends.

After all what credence could you give to "the meek shall inherit the earth" if the meek aren't content?

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Would the world be better without Religion? I am tempted to come up with analogy but will attempt to just state how I feel. Tribalism, greed, gullibiity, self-righteousness, and etc all exist without realigion and can manifest themselves in other forms. Nationalism, racist, elitism, and so on have been used throughout history to perpetrate many horrors. So while I am no fan of religion I do not view religion as a main source of dystunction in society.

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Would the world be better without Religion? I am tempted to come up with analogy but will attempt to just state how I feel. Tribalism, greed, gullibiity, self-righteousness, and etc all exist without realigion and can manifest themselves in other forms. Nationalism, racist, elitism, and so on have been used throughout history to perpetrate many horrors. So while I am no fan of religion I do not view religion as a main source of dystunction in society.

Its true all of those things happen in the service of other ideologies or causes than just religion. However, where I live, religion is not a cause of war, or violence, or destruction, its just a cause of mass stupidity and ignorance. That's the American South my friend.
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Its true all of those things happen in the service of other ideologies or causes than just religion. However, where I live, religion is not a cause of war, or violence, or destruction, its just a cause of mass stupidity and ignorance. That's the American South my friend.

 

 

Be careful, listen to this first.

 

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I know I'm likely wrong with most everything I think, but defying cultural norms is just too satisfying. Its not that my reasoning is so superior to theirs, because its not. Its also not that my opinions were formed by high degrees of reasoning and critical thinking. Its more that I just adopted the most contrary and rebellious opinions I could for where I'm from, and it just happened that I found myself on the right side of most of them.

Edited by Tampitump
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^ I think it's good to swim against the tide, it can only help to develop one's critical thinking skills. My point was not to ignore the wisdom that's already out there; wisdom doesn't come with age it comes with understanding.

There's no way to maintain the norms around here and be even remotely enlightened or content with the rate at which you're gaining knowledge.
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There's no way to maintain the norms around here and be even remotely enlightened or content with the rate at which you're gaining knowledge.

 

Whilst you think that's true, wisdom is just a dream; listen to them and learn the difference between knowledge and understanding.

 

Otherwise you just follow the norms whilst pretending to rail against them.

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Whilst you think that's true, wisdom is just a dream; listen to them and learn the difference between knowledge and understanding.

 

Otherwise you just follow the norms whilst pretending to rail against them.

Not a single thing you've said in this forum so far makes a modicum of sense or is indicative of someone who knows what they're talking about. Its just word salad, word salad, word salad. Its getting quite annoying if I'm honest. Why not try saying something that actually has a point or a change? Edited by Tampitump
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Not a single thing you've said in this forum so far makes a modicum of sense or is indicative of someone who knows what they're talking about. Its just word salad, word salad, word salad. Its getting quite annoying if I'm honest. Why not try saying something that actually has a point or a change?

 

It could be argued that nothing I've said in this thread makes sense, but word salad?

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Not a single thing you've said in this forum so far makes a modicum of sense or is indicative of someone who knows what they're talking about. Its just word salad, word salad, word salad. Its getting quite annoying if I'm honest. Why not try saying something that actually has a point or a change?

 

 

Not understanding a statement does not necessarily mean that statement is incomprehensible. You don't read a scientific journal in the same way that you read poetry, but both reveal truths within a context.

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It could be argued that nothing I've said in this thread makes sense, but word salad?

You don't even understand what I'm referring to when I speak about these people. If you ask them, none of the sophistication you seem to ascribe to their beliefs or motivations is accurate at all. They do not take into consideration the things you mention. You are willing to grant them much more than I am.

 

And to suggest that I follow norms is to completely disregard everything I've said in my time on this forum. I don't even follow the norms of my fellow non-believers, much less the norms of the pious culture I live in.

Edited by Tampitump
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You don't even understand what I'm referring to when I speak about these people.

 

There you go again, how do you know I don't understand?

 

If you ask them, none of the sophistication you seem to ascribe to their beliefs or motivations is accurate at all.

 

 

Have you asked them? No of course not, since you say I make no sense; I can only assume you think my nonsense word salad is sophisticated.

 

They do not take into consideration the things you mention.

 

 

Again, how do you know?

 

You are willing to grant them much more than I am.

 

 

I'm willing to grant them their constitutional right, the freedom to believe what they want; aren't you?

 

And to suggest that I follow norms is to completely disregard everything I've said in my time on this forum. I don't even follow the norms of my fellow non-believers

 

 

It's everything you've said on this forum that suggests exactly that, in what way don't you follow the norms of your fellow non-believers?

Edited by dimreepr
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The reason I know about these people is because my hometown is comprised of 3,000 people total, and I know every single one of these people personally (EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM). I know how the rural South is, I've lived here all my life. I know these people, and I know them well. I know what they think, how they think, and what they believe, etc. These people are my family and friends. I go way back, and my family goes way back, with all of them. I talk to them every day. I know exactly how they think, what their worldviews are, and the reasons they give for believing what they believe. There are no reasons why they believe what they believe. Its just the tradition and culture they were raised in. There is noting more to their beliefs than that. I know, I was raised this way too. I used to be right there with them. I know this as well as I can know anything about people.

 

And I know you don't understand because every statement you make demonstrates that you're talking on a completely different plane than me. You are obviously talking about moderate Christians, or at least Christians who have some sort of sophistication in how they view their beliefs. This is not the people I'm talking about, and I know this for a fact about them. There is no nuance or sophistication in how the people in my neck of the woods view the Bible or Christianity. They believe with all their hearts that Adam and Eve literally sinned in the garden 6,000 years ago, man fell, and Jesus came to die for them. They literally believe that the book is perfect in every way, and are petrified of, and hostile to, anything that offers a different view.

 

You should see the reaction you get around here if you mention something like the word "atheism" or something they consider to be an evil or satanic thing. I'm not saying I'm oppressed, but you should see what its like to be a non-believer around here. You have to keep it to yourself. If you possess socially-liberal views, you have to keep it to yourself. If you support a woman's reproductive rights, you've got to keep that to yourself. You will find yourself in the middle of a giant argument in which informed dialogue and evidence are out the window.

 

And as I stated before, the worst part of all is how this type of belief causes people to think. When you try to initiate discussion with these people, you never witness a concern on their part to offer good reasons, evidence, and support for their beliefs. All you get is circular references back to the Bible, or you get told that they think the devil is trying to steal your soul, or that you're a sinner who works for the devil, or whatever nonsense sophistry you can think of. When you try to explain evidence and how claims of this sort work, you can never get someome to indulge you on that endeavor. Their poor little minds just won't have it. There is not a bit of thought or concern for truth that goes into how people here obtain their worldview. It is purely a process of having an insular, hidebound, and unassailable set of beliefs offered up to you as a child, and being taught to be afraid of anything else. These people do not learn what science actually is. They never learn the proper ways to think about anything. Thus, what you get is a toxic form of ignorance that puts its thumb down on these people's ability to think, their ability to grow intellectually, or to ever break out of the box they are in.

 

I know you'll probably come back with more fabricated nonsense to say, but I'm done for now. Please do not ask me the question "how do you know," again, dimreepr. Nothing you say ever makes any sense. You don't even seem to get what people are saying most of the time. Your replies are weird and stupid, and just a bunch of nonsense words and sentences thrown together that make no sense at all, and are out in left field. They don't even seem to really address anything that has been said. That's why I referred to them as "word salad". You've been operating on a different astral plane than me this whole time, and our thoughts are not connecting. I literally can't make sense of the things you say.

 

I know I'm a jerk and a half, but I can't keep my opinions to myself. I'm forced to hold them in all the time, so I usually just let them run free on here. I guess its the hidebound redneck still in me.

Edited by Tampitump
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