Sedit

I asked pretty much the same exact question about a week ago in this thread right here,

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/54756-size-of-a-black-hole/

I personally feel light does have mass but its to small for us to really care most of the time.

Photons have relative mass, meaning they have mass because they are equivalent to matter which has mass. In other words, a specific amount of energy is can be a specific amount of matter.

So if I understand correctly the general consensus is that they have no true mass but the mass they figure on is only true because the energy could be converted to mass?

Yeh that must have been a brain fart, your completely right about the Schwarzschild radius and I cant believe that it didnt cross my mind. Perhaps I was just to wrapped up in a blackhole having dimensions to think about the obvious.

As far as the question about light. Im not sure I understand your explination. Are you saying that you believe a photon truely has zero mass, because I in all honesty don't believe it at all. I have read and understand the text book examples you gave but I thank you non the lest for posting them.

However I have figured that given E=mc2 then it should be able to work the energy content of the photon with E = hc/wavelength and work backwards from E to figure out the mass of the photon. However given that I believe the mass is extremely small it would be next to impossible to use the figures we have now to figure the mass of the photon since a single decimal place off on the speed of light and we would lose the ability to figure for the mass of the photon which would be incredibly small.

What is everyones thoughts on my idea... is it feesable? I worry that the energy of the photon is a measure at the speed of light so how would I take it down to its rest mass energy?

Sorry my post is a little hackish im just rattling off the top of my head at the moment.

Its because your not really paying attention when you walk into the liquor store appearently. Southern comfort, Yukon jack, Everclear, to name a few, all sell one pint bottles in plastic.

I honestly think this is something you would have to answer for yourself. Taking your morals from a book, esp on that seems to condem human nature on so many levels, will lead to nothing but conflicts in your heart.

Best to develop your own moral standards and decide for yourself if theres anything wrong with the way mother nature made us. We where not born with cloths so if we never where shown shame and covered up our bodys would it really feel that wrong looking at another person?

The only things I feel are morally wrong are actions which if taken in excess could collapse a society as a whole. For example if murder became socially acceptable all hell would break loose and we would see chaos ensue. This will not happen from looking at a woman. Worst case senerio is your wife smacking you in the back of the head and you sleep on the couch for the night .

If we never looked at the opposite sex with the thought of sex in mind our species would have never propagated and humans would cess to exist. I say oggle away and take some pictures to share with dear old sedit

I got a rather simple question for everyone I was hoping someone would be able to clear up some confusion for me.

I was watching a show on the science channel the other day and they mentioned the super massive black hole in the center of the galaxy. Im in agreeance that it exist but something they said struck me as odd. They stated that the size of the black hole was 15 thousand miles wide.

This is where my current understanding falls apart. Im under the impression that a black hole is a singularity, so how could it have any dimensions other G and spin momentum?

In an effort to not clutter up the forum with small questions I wanted to also ask another quick question. Does anyone know if its possible for a photon to possese gravitation pull. As I understand its rest mass is for all general uses 0 but it forms a small amount of momentum due to the speed that its traveling, evident by the push it is able to excert on objects inspace(see solar sails), meaning that its true rest mass can not be exactly zero. So as an example would anyone be able to tell me what the mass of light would be at say, 100hz.

Thanks for your help.

~Sedit

But the older text states the devil is gods adversary.

ad·ver·sary noun \ˈad-və®-ˌser-ē, -ˌse-rē\

plural ad·ver·sar·ies

Definition of ADVERSARY

: one that contends with, opposes, or resists : enemy

So with that information one would have to assume that the devil does not want our soul after all. What it would appear he wants is to ensure god is not getting it. If there is a soul and it is weak then the devil will more then likely accomplish his goals rather easy and sway the lesser souls from the path of righteousness with the mere mention of material goods. A stronger soul however will find a means of incorperating material and spiritual pleasures into there life as to create a balance.

These are the souls that the devil should in theory focus his attention on because he will test them at every turn. The lesser souls have been deemed not worth gods time rather quick but as gods adversary he must ensure god does not get the souls. This would mean that the more spiritual one gets the more they are tested by the devil and god being the supreme allows this to occure because it means he does not waste his time with the lesser souls.

Perhaps this explains the large amount of corruption in the higher up in the church system. Being human and not godlike every man has a limit and a price and being tempted more and more as they climb the ranks to understanding of god sooner or later the devil will find that mans price and ensure that soul never meets god.

If my logic is correct that would mean little to no souls enjoy the comforts of heaven and they remain in a purgetory instead after death.

If there is any truth behind it there is always the notion that it is the nature of the gum chewer as opposed to someone that does not chew gum... or there pen in some cases.

Perhaps someone that finds the class dull due to its ease do need some sort of extra stimulation when being "taught" in order to retain focus.

As already stated you will have a rough time getting a decent seperation of this mixture. As long as you are not hell bent on using distillation as the means of seperation then it will be a walk in the park.

Sodium Hydrosulfite(Sodium Bisulfite) will form the sulfonate adduct with the acetone forming a solid precipitate allowing you to filter and redistill the resulting acetone free Ethanol. Keep in mind I said Bisulfite and not Bisulfate.

SO3 crystals are not exactly that they are the trimmer of Sulfur trioxide and form a solid below 16 degrees C. It is so hygroscopic that there is very little chance of producing it pure with out destroying your equipment and/ or your self.

You must know that this substance will ignite on contact with organic materials and there has been reports of the ignition being delayed by days at a time before the floor of a lab burst into flames from the heat of hydration.

If you don't mind me asking what in the world would one want with solid SO3?

Iv heard of electrical expoxy. I am not exactly sure how it works but if it dont have the grainyness that metallic paints do then that would be the best way to go I would think.

The hydrogen would have to be reacted with something like platinum to make it reactive if im not mistaken. There is also a light frequency that will break the bond also so it may be worth a look to see what frequency its at. I have it somewhere but its to late to look. Ill check back tommorow.

The general over the counter way of producing pure glacial acetic acid is to react baking soda with vinegar and evaporate to yeild Sodium acetate. React the sodium acetate with sulfuric acid and distill it to yeild pure glacial acetic acid.

I have performed this manytimes since the photography shops closed down around here and there are a few thing to take note about this.

First thing is after you boil away your solution and get sodium acetate recrystalize it atlest once or else you will have to throw away the first few ML of your distillate because it will be contaminated with some other organics that where present in the vinegar and you will see a scum floating on the surface after distilling.

Second note is something that some one just informed me about because I had a minor accident with it. Make sure to not use excess sodium bicarbonate because when you add your sulfuric acid the left over sodium bicarbonate will foam alot and in my case spray out the top of the flask and a little got on my face and hands which is something you DO NOT want.

All that being said it is a very easy procedure and pretty safe but just thought I would let you know a few things I had to learn along the way. It is time consuming but thats about the only obstical I can really think of.

Well I have an update to this threed and I have a hunch that -42 was a huge understatment. My thermometer which i didnt take into account at the time is only suppose to go to -40 degrees F and yet I constantly get reading of -42(two differnt snow falls also so unless its the nitrogen in the snow then contamination is pretty much out of the question).

As an attempt at calibration I tryed to liquify NH3 which I know liquifys at -28 degrees C. What I got was a small chunk of ice crystals that I thought ment the NH3 wasnt dry enough but after putting it into a cold water bath it quickly vaporised leaving not a trace of condensation as water in the mix would have done.This means it is quite possible that HCl/snow is reaching temperatures of -78 degrees C and below. I have a full year to get a proper thermometer now and this threed my die for sometime but I will keep you updated because I am very interested in acheiving low temperatures.

The HCl I am using is standard over the counter muratic acid 35%.

After a few snow falls and many replications I have noticed wet snow can not even compair to dry snow in the least. This may explain why shaved ice isn't working either. Possible if it was shaved then refrozen to get rid of the trace surface liquid water then I may get better results.

Also still have yet to achieve there results with sulfuric acid even under proper conditions.

I would think that some sort of heat transfer device and something to convert this to electricity would be the most feesible way of using the road power.

If you consider that roads need to be repaved all the time anyway this systems could be put in place next time its due for repairs.

Also there will be a conservation of the energy expended as heat as the cars wheels meet the road.

At first thought I would believe that this could be done with a blanket of fluid filled pipes but Im sure there are many other ways that one could use this thermal energy to convert it to electric.

edit

Im having issues reproducing there data using H2SO4 I diluted my 96% H2SO4 down to 60%(maybe the problem I just noticed it says 66%) and added it to finely crushed Ice,

Where as under the same conditions and batch of crushed Ice HCl reached -19.5'-' -20 as a control the H2SO4 only reached about -9.

Yeh i used a nice little program called babylon which just a click of a mouse on a paragraph and it translates it. I wasnt to sure about the Kaltwasser it said that it ment chilled water but the kalt makes it sound like something was being lost in translation. If you can translate it would be be kind enough to tell me what the picture of the reaction mechanism translates to? my program cant do pictures.

thanks in advance

~Sedit

Iv included a rough translation for any one interested in the link to the german artical that UC posted a link for.

Prof. Blumes tip of the month August 1998 (tip-No. 14) With Kältemischungen there are also in the summer ice

.

..{Skiping the beging that is just discussing the yearly ice harvest and its uses ect..

}

What is physical-chemical behind it?

You combine a salt in liquid water, causing it to the Wasserdipole by the ions of salt wrapping and so the ionic crystal lattice out.

This procedure is usually endothermic, as the new Ion-dipole interaction is smaller than the lattice energy of salt. The heat of a solution for the salt is therefore withdrawn from the surrounding area; solution and vessel cool down from (try 1). With sodium nitrate we reach a temperature of -5,3 °C.

You combine with a firm a salt water ice, dissolves the salt to bring even though this is much slower (try 2). Where does the water to solve? You to know that ice melts under pressure, and therefore under influence of air pressure. That is why ice always with a thin layer of water coated. With this liquid water is the ice in a dynamic equilibrium.

The water for solving the salt comes from this balance and is constantly being copied. So the equilibrium and ice, slowly disappears. (This effect one uses by the way to provide in Winter ice on footpath and streets to fight.) In this operation comes to solving the salt is still the melting of ice. Whose been together with heat of a solution of salt from the surrounding area taken. This also reduces the temperature of the mix ice/salt characteristics.

Recipes for freezing mixture In the literature are very many Mischungsangaben to find. But soft information about the composition and reached temperatures in various tables often widely. In our table will give you some Mischungsbeispiele you can even check. The cheapest is the suitable cooling liquid with salt, at the du -21,3 °C can reach you can (try 3). Instead of mineral salts, you also non-ionic compounds as additions to production of freezing mixture.

------------------------------------------

From here it goes on to the chart to show the temperature that it reaches

Kaltwasser = chilled water possibly salt water?

eis = ice

Iv been looking into wake field accelerators swansont which seem simular to what your discribing but the overall information information on them just isnt there like most other forms of accelerators.

"and seriously, who uses fahrenheit"

Just what my cheep digital thermometer reads thats all. Im sure you have seen them black bulbus top with a metal probe.

"if gaseous HCl then you are lying."

No it was 35%(maybe 32% cant remeber) muratic acid from home depot, So your saying that gas dont work? Ok... that was going to be my next experiment when given the chance to gas the snow. Honestly I thought that the lack of H2O in the system was going to give me better results.

Now you also stated that the acid concentrating it self is endothermic. IIRC 45% is whats reached under ice cold conditions for HCl solutions correct? So would bubbling Dry HCl into some 30<>% with snow on top that will melt and concentrat when the gas hits it still produce a null effect or would it behave differntly?

"yes, when you add it to liquid water it does because diluting it is exothermic, concentrating it is necessarily endothermic. by freezing the water it is dissolved in(using snow in this case) you are concentrating the acid which is an endothermic process.

"

Now is this why it cant get as low using the less finly ground shaved ice as opposed to the snow?

Because even though surface area looks pretty much the same I would be running into acid dissasociating in water generating heat while the acid attempts to concentrat in an endo thermic process? With snow it would seem that the latur would gain the upper hand leading to the much much lower temperatures..

Also insane_alien some one else that I asked about this said that sulfuric has a greater ability to remove energy compared to HCl is this true and would it be worth it to use my (precious for the time being) 95%Sulfuric to perform this next time it snows.

@UC

Thanks for the link man Havent fully translated it yet because im still typing this while trying to read it but at first glance it is amazing to see that MgCl hydrate can reach such low temperatures. BTW I thought Finely pulverized Ice would work the same also or atlest almost as good hence the reason for starting this threed.. it dont work no ware as near as good and I would think thatas the temperature extreams got as low as -94 it would cause more of a problem..

Also yes I noticed that it has to be added for the HCl any way as fast as possible(also stired into a thin slush). One cant just add a little snow then add a little acid then add a little snow ect... to keep the temp down it has to be done all at once or the temperature rises because of the acid temp I believe.

"it's a little late for snow"

Its getting there for here also but we keep getting wet rain and snow which is driving me nuts. Its like a tease.

"scales you are talking about there is no medium."

Your right we havent detected any medium at this time. Also how could we detect a medium that would be so much smaller the the atoms we use for detectors.

Electrons could possibly behave as a medium on a scale such as this but any theory behind it would be pure speclutive and not worthy enough to really discuss.

Im in no way saying it is possible but what conditions would be needed for electrons to behave as the air does in that experiment?

I know it all sounds a bit screwy but Iv for some time tryed to think of a way to make a neutral partical accelerator and hit a brick wall at every turn.

Would a vibrating positive ion in an electron cloud of plasma rarify the electrons in the area?

"adding acid to water shoudl result in a temperature increase."

Nope not even a little bit the temperature will drop from about 28 degrees F to -42 very rapidly and with in 10 seconds or so it will be anyware from -38 to -42

"and I think looking into something Simple like Surface Area would be a better 1`st step.

Then you can set about complicating things "

Hence the reason for using shaved ice on subsequent experiments only to find that -15 thru -20 was the limits not matter how fine I managed to get it.

Complicating things is the level I am at with it at the moment because I want to find how to get it to drop lower using other acids or salts ect...Understanding the mechanism is essential for this. My first instinct has to be that the fact that there is more hydrogen bonding in ice compaired to snow means that energy is being released as these are breaking and forcing it to reach an equilibrium quicker then it will with snow. But as i said these are all just guesses at the moment.

Lack of anymore snow has put a damper on experimenting and I want to try to get the shaved ice to get as low as possible also. A block of Ice is easy enough to make but i still havent figured out this weather control problem : ).

~Sedit

Im sure many have seen the sympathetic vibration experiment where a tuning fork is held near a ballon to rarify the air surrounding it and attract the ballon, Is there any case where this can reproduced on the quantum scale to attract and move neutral particals? The lack of air particals would mean that slightly differnt mechanism would be at work but the principle should stay the same.

Could this possibly provide insite into the strong nuclear forces?

Can any one explain the mechanics behind why HCl dumped into a bucket of snow will quickly reach -42 degrees F yet shaved ice will not get there no matter how hard I try.

My general hypothesis has to do with hydrogen bonding, or lack there of anyway, with snow compared to the structure of ice but was woundering if anyone had more insite into this then my self.

~Sedit