Moontanman

I don't know... Some scientists destroyed 100 years worth of data recently...

Oh yeah? On what? Please provide more than just a blind claim.

On the contrary (or converse), I think one has to say that the Christian cross is a Latin cross. That is not the same as saying all Latin crosses are Christian crosses.

Well the link I provided says a Latin Cross is by definition a Christian cross and while I would like to believe you are correct it would be good to see something besides your assertion that my link is mistaken.

Here is the disclosure projects take on what Hawkings said.

http://www.disclosureproject.org/response-to-hawking.htm

http://www.disclosureproject.org/index.shtml

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Can you elaborate why you weren't surprised that project sign saw evidence of extraterrestrials and project grudge didn't?

I often wonder how Christains would react if some religious symbol other than theirs was ot be displayed promonantly on or in or even around any publicly owned building or property.

I hoestly do not have aproblem with a naitivity sceene being used at the local fire house at Christmas or the symbols of easter at Easter. it's sometimes annoying to think of money being spent on religous symbols, especially at a time when money is tight and needed services are being restricted.

But I wonder if i wanted a

Displayed at the time of Beltane at one of these public places what the reaction of these good Tolerant Christians would be. Even if i paid for it I bet they'd be steppen and fetchin' like their asses were on fire and their heads were catchin'.

I answered my own question from above, these are the 39 symbols allowed by the Pentagon on veterans graves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Veterans_Affairs_emblems_for_headstones_and_markers

The Latin cross is indeed Christain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_cross

Latin cross, Cross with a longer descending arm. Along with the Greek cross, it is the most common form. It represents the cross of Jesus' crucifixion.

From this article it would appear that virtually all crosses are religious symbols of some form but he cross as displayed in the public grave yards ans on that hill is a Christian cross and as such is not secular any more than any other cross is.

It's labeled that way in several articles, but in others it's described as a Latin cross.

 

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Dak posted an image from a cemetery, presumably a national cemetery. Are those religious displays of crosses and stars of David (and the occasional crescent that probably exists) allowable, even though they are on federal land? I'm thinking this has come up somewhere in this (or similar) discussion, and that the conclusion was probably "yes, they are; they do not violate the establishment clause"

I'd like to know if there are any graves of anyone who is not Jewish or Christian in that grave yard and if there is what symbol is used for those people? The cross as shown, a long bottom and three short arms is a Christian symbol.

Has any life been found in space? Anything at all, viruses included.

I'd have to say no on that, if life had be discovered in space it would be huge news, no way it would be ignored or covered up.

Evidently quite a large amount of oil seeps to the surface naturally

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/01/000127082228.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090513130944.htm

http://www.searchanddiscovery.net/documents/abstracts/hedberg2002/kvenvolden01/kvenvolden01.htm

http://www.rense.com/general63/refil.htm

This has everything to do with is contact good or not, i say it's nuetral, aliens would have no desire to take our planet because it's unlikely that star traveling aliens would need planets.

My wife thought the pic was a cartoon army tank... go figure!

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I'm really not trying to prove UFOs are real any more than Hawkings was trying to prove they are real. i think Hawkings is sadly unaware of how unlikely it would be that aliens could use the earth, He is brilliant man in his field is is a giant but in biochemistry he is not the same giant.

Any aliens would be far more likely to be inhabiting the fringes of our solar system if they are here at all.

It does how ever annoy me for people to dismiss out of hand UFOs as lights in the sky or crazies. there are UFO reports that have an embarrassing amount of evidence, are seen by multiple witnesses recorded on ground radar, military aircraft radar seen on the ground and in the air by military pilots and crews and civilian airline crews and this is just one sighting over a nuclear missile base!

J Allen Hynek started out as a skeptic hired by the military to debunk UFOs, he ended up believing that some UFOs were inexplicable and should be studied.

the first US Air force study concluded that UFOs were interplanetary space craft of alien origin. the air force general or what ever refused to believe it and got a new group together that came back and told him what he wanted to hear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimate_of_the_Situation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Sign

Now to me the idea that you might get tangible evidence of a flying saucer seems unlikely at best and totally unreasonable any way you look at it. I live near an airport under a landing path that takes aircraft directly over my house many times a day at low altitudes of a couple hundred feet. i have yet to see a bolt or any other piece of an aircraft fall off. Why would anyone expect to find a piece of an advanced interplanetary craft fall off?

i admit that the actions of UFOs seems obscure at best and the idea that an alien intelligence would fly light years to buzz an airplane and leave seems unlikely but if they are actually here in our solar system getting information about our reactions to their craft might be important enough to do a fly by every once in a while. They might even stop a lone traveler and do some tests on him or her.

None of this proves anything but I think the idea of aliens coming her and taking over the earth is highly unlikely due to biology if nothing else.

You have to ask what their probable cause is. If they turn on the flashy lights, they'd better have a reason for doing so.

So you ask him WTF does he think he can stop you and he wackes your tail light and says you have a tail light out, please step out of the car. You comply and "hit your head" trying to take his gun, you go to jail and in the position of your word against along time police officer. Hmmmm...

I've seen police officers handle very rude often abusive individuals, generally they took far more than I would personally.

I can't see any reason to be rude to someone who is simply trying to his job, as long as he treats me with a reasonable amount of respect he will get it from me.

My politics might generally be liberal but I am also civilized and feel like people do indeed have certain basic rights but so do police officers. They have a difficult job, often enforcing unpopular laws on people who are too stupid to to know holding their tongues and being polite will get you through more check points for things like drugs and alcohol than trying to insure your "rights".

(although the idea of a check point pisses me off big time)

If the police do get out of hand with me I would be the first insist on a supervisor and then a lawyer but trying to provoke a possibly tired and on his "last nerve" police officer is really stupid.

These are pretty good evidence against trusting the factual accuracy of alien UFO claims. 1) It looks like your typical "lights in the sky" meteorite. 2) As a craft, this cannot be how it actually looks -- the person inside should not be visible, or if it is actually intended to be an "open" ship, these people have no idea how nasty wind can be at supersonic speeds.

I think that if indeed this was supposed to represent a real space craft it is a cut away view to demonstrate there is someone inside the craft. it is not intended to show a real space craft but a stylized version of what the artist thought was going on.

We do the same thing when we draw stylized versions of airplanes, of course it could be the space craft are really not traveling that fast and are in fact gliding over the scene slowly.

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My wife gave me a rather unique view point when i asked her what she saw in the above pic. She is not into UFOs as a skeptic or believer.

water≠sky

Yes, I can agree with that. Now look at this picture, as a totally independent picture. don't take into account where it came from or what it is supposed to be.

What do you see?

That's your prerogative, but I don't have the same view regarding an attempt to violate my civil rights. For me it clashes with the notion that people died preserving our rights, and to me it would be disrespectful to let someone trample them.

I'm not sure why showing a law enforcement officer some level of respect is allowing him to trample my rights. I treat them the same way I treat anyone else, I expect them to treat me with some respect as well but if i was in a position that called for the officer to suspect me for some reason giving him the finger would seem to be needlessly provocative in any situation.

If I really felt he was trampling my rights i would contact a lawyer and we would go to court, doing something disrespectful back to him seems childish and counter productive to me.

Just to make a point here, I didn't cherry pick, Moontanman, I took the offered site and linked the first three pictures I saw.

 

I didn't even skip... it's the first three.

Sorry mooeypoo, we were looking at different sites, the one I offered showed medieval paintings first.

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this is the most reasonable discussion of the subject I have been able to find.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleocontact

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oannes#As_Oannes

Oannes (Hovhannes [Հովհաննես] in Armenian) was the name given by the Babylonian writer Berossus in the 3rd century BC to a mythical being who taught mankind wisdom. Berossus describes Oannes as having the body of a fish but underneath the figure of a man. He is described as dwelling in the Persian Gulf, and rising out of the waters in the daytime and furnishing mankind instruction in writing, the arts and the various sciences.

 

The name "Oannes" was once conjectured to be derived from that of the ancient Babylonian god Ea [1], but it is now known that the name is the Greek form of the Babylonian Uanna (or Uan) a name used for Adapa in texts from the Library of Ashurbanipal.[2][3] The Assyrian texts attempt to connect the word to the Akkadian for a craftsman ummanu but this is a merely a pun [2]. Scholars have long speculated that the name might ultimately be derived from that of the 8th century figure of Jonah (Hebrew Yonah). Bible critics have made the reverse claim, although the Hebrew name has the known meaning of "dove". [4]

 

Oannes was portrayed as a man wearing the skin of a fish.

 

Iosif Shklovsky and Carl Sagan cited tales of Oannes as deserving closer scrutiny as a possible instance of paleocontact due to its consistency and detail.[5]

It has honestly been many years since I delved very deeply into this stuff and i find that Erich von Däniken was conservative compared to the stuff out now. From what i read now this stuff has feed on it's self using it's self to reference it's self and now has mutated beyond any recognition of any real facts or even speculations. It's really sad, at one time I was almost a reasonable line of inquiry, now it's crazies pumping sunshine up the skirts of other crazies to the point it has no relevance what so ever to reality.

WOW maybe I should set up a site and hawk my theory, it's as good as anyone else's and just as based in fact and I could be a crazy too...

Well, there's that and then there's this guy: http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascounty/index.ssf/2010/02/clackamas_man_exercises_free_s.html

 

Always nice to see someone standing up for our rights.

Most police officers I've had the misfortune to cross were quite polite and nice about it, I've seen them put up with stuff that if it was done to me someones ass would have been kicked. They catch quite a bit of hell due to unpopular laws and the occasional officer who really is an asshole.

But then again...

A good friend of mine was killed by a police officer in a traffic stop, the officer accidentally shot him at point blank range in the back of the head while he sat at the wheel of his car.

He had a history of problems with that police officer and the officer went scott free. No one was there to say what really happened. I think I'll continue to treat them with respect, deserved or not, i don't want a 9mm in the back of my head.

I cannot believe that aliens would closely resemble humans either but of course the conspiracy theorists say the people we meet as aliens are actually humans they have raised and trained (the reason for the late night baby stealing) if it was easy to see and the evidence was irrefutable then there would be no doubt and all would be revealed.

the idea is to see into the past via these images and some stories as well to get at a hidden truth. I'm not sure if there is a hidden truth or if the truth is even close to what has been proposed but i know if we dismiss the ideas out of hand then we will never know unless the aliens reveal themselves to us at some point.

Of course there are those who say this has already happened and the government has chosen to hide this from us.

I'd love to continue this as an intelligent discussion but I'll have to dig very deep to find any more intelligent material. there used to be some plausible if unlikely theories available but in recent years every crazy on the planet has been able to post his or her personal take on this and the ideas are seldom intelligent or even resemble any realistic credible possibility. I'll try to see if I can dredge up any of the older stuff but my google search today has turned up nothing but bull butter.

i still say the most likely IF is that aliens live in our solar system independant of planets, if they are here, if frogs had wings they wouldn't bust thier asses everytime the jump

I wouldn't be surprised if Arizona required the same; you could then preclude a search altogether by surrendering your weapon(s). But rulings have also found that the 4th amendment allows you to simply walk away, absent probable cause to detain you. i.e. you have the right to not talk to the police, and not talking to the police does not constitute probable cause.

I guess that's true but i am a lawful citizen of the USA, my respect for law enforcement would preclude such a disrespectful attitude.

Obviously there is no proof, and yes if it was aliens the ancients didn't know it, at least not publicly. some conspiracy theorists (i say it that way because it is indeed a conspiracy theory) say that it was known to some and the painting portrayed it secretly as in the tiny hard to see space craft or other hidden ways. I'm not sure I buy that but the images are hauntingly familiar to modern day UFO sightings and if they are connected the connection could have real meaning even if it wasn't aliens or gods. While it doesn't say they were good or bad it does seem to say something odd is happening.

Let's see. The human neurological tendency to anthropomorphize leads us to the 'men in the sky' from ancient times. What else could meteors be but the men traveling? Artists then put men in meteors. Not at all out of reach of Medieval men.

This is really reaching dude.

If there were little green men with rocket packs shooting ray guns, you might have a case.

So you really think aliens would be little green men with ray guns? How would you expect aliens to be portrayed?

looks like it could be a rock to me.

Really, you don't see the details the artist put in the rock? Why were the details put in, why is the man and the dog looking at the rock?

chances are, only the artist will ever know what it is, could be a rock could be a spacecraft, could be an attempt to cover up a blemish. there are many many many far more plausible explanations thant 'ZOMG ALIENS!!!one!!!'

Blemish? Painters cover blemishes with paint, not space ships, if it was blemish why is the man looking at it, why would the man the dog and the "rock" be in the deep back round of a painting of the Madonna?

But anyway the point is moot as it says nothing on whether aliens are goodies or badies.

The idea is the painter was trying to preserve the idea of something being behind the religious ideas that was not religion? Good or bad, if is was a lie then it had to be bad.

I think you may have created a monster, lol, i had to go around my elbow to get to my ass to do this but i figured out how to get the URL to the image, i had to go to properties to get it.

Really? Large fiery rocks waited until AFTER that painting to appear in the sky? For realzies? For serious?

 

Lots of meteors are portrayed in art, this is not a flaming rock by any means.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia

 

No thank you, i don't drink from that particular brand of koolaid, the face on mars was obviously in question but this object floating in the sky is a structured craft, the painter went through great pains to show it as such, it is not a simple rock in the sky. it has details no rock would have or need in a painting.

 

And if it is a UFO, why is it in the painting?

 

That would pretty much be the $64,000 question ya know,

 

the whole idea is that aliens are some how involved in or inspired religion.

Oh? You have pieces of a UFO?

It's a dark blur with highlighted edges. It could be any number of things. It could be an asteroid. It could be a representation of God(similar to that used on SMBC). I'm not an expert on Renaissance art, but I don't see any reason to suspect it's an alien craft.

Asteroid? Seriously dude, that would be as wild as an alien space craft since they had no concept of asteroid when that was painted. that picture when blown up looks like a craft of some sort to me, i can't see it as anything else, I'd admit it might be a stylized idea of a boat of some kind but to say it doesn't show a craft of some sort is really out there. And if it is a simple boat why is it in the sky?

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I don't get the option of view picture when I right click on it, i have to down load it to my computer then to this site and then get the pic to put it in the thread.

I don't see any technology in that photo. How about you post images(using

 

So the object floating in the sky behind the maddona looks like a natural object to you?

 

(mostly because i'm not sure how to use the ' alt='>(mostly because i'm not sure how to use the '> thingy)

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Hows this?

 

What technology? I didn't see any in those photos(aside from chariots, etc).

Then you didn't bother to look at the pictures, the most suggestive of technology is

The Madonna with Saint Giovannino

http://dudeman.net/siriusly/ufo/art.html

Many others are also suggestive of technology

Indeed. Probably used by humans as tools or discarded in trash heaps. I wonder if we've found any dragon bones.

 

Yet non-understood lights in the sky along with a neurological tendency to anthropomorphize things isn't 'evidence available to nearly all cultures of antiquity'?

 

What about stories and artwork all over the globe of humans interacting with dragons? It's widespread culturally, so it HAS to be true!

While i tend to believe the cultural aspect of UFOs is a more likely explanation, the depiction of what is obviously technology is odd. World wide the depiction of dragons differs drastically but it is always based in part on the portrayal of living animals, usually highly stylized snakes or lizards but how do you explain the portrayal of advanced technology and often identical images?

BTW yodaP "lights in the sky" is a low blow, skeptics often use this to ridicule the idea of UFOs even though many sighting are far more than just lights in the sky. If all UFOs were just lights in the sky then there would be no question they are alien space craft or not. I think it's wrong to portray UFOs as though they are ridiculous, they might be hallucinations or even hoaxes but they are not simply lights in the sky by any realistic definition.