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Moontanman

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Posts posted by Moontanman

  1. 3 hours ago, beecee said:

    Octopuses drying on a line

    Octopuses drying on a line

    I am going to be real with you, this image disturbs me, having interacted so much with octopus and the intelligence they showed it's like some one hanging a cat or a dog out to dry on a line. I had real interactions with them and could judge their emotions at least if not their thoughts by watching the colors run around their bodies. I would give them gifts of unusual materials and they acted as thought they really enjoyed the odd objects i gave them to build their houses. They really seemed to relish the oddities, except for ping pong balls they hated ping pong balls. They loved golf balls... go figure.     

    BTW, squid are calamari, and i bet cuttlefish are smarter than octopus...then you have the very brainy mormyrids which i currently keep.   

  2. On 1/16/2022 at 2:11 PM, StringJunky said:

    I just learned some soil bacteria and blue-green algae (diazotrophs) can fix nitrogen from air, they are a potential N source.

    If you set up a kiddie wading pool, maybe one of those 8' ones in a sunny place, add a handful of Azolla, by the end of the summer you'll have a 55 gallon drum full of very nitrogen rich Azolla that can be composted or even plant things directly in compressed Azolla in a pot, I used to use half sawdust and half Azolla for my birds nest ferns, Azolla fixes nitrogen from the atmosphere using photosynthesis. I used to harvest and compost it regularly.  

  3. Why is everyone assuming that octopus could not adapt to living on land? Given opening up of evolutionary niches on land by, say a mass extinction of vertebrates, The octopus would seem to be a contender for being amphibious quite easily. Their reproductive strategy could change and they could become land animals, and having nine brains could result in a creature beyond our imagining just like pikaia, I bet no one here would have seen pikaia evolving into humans 450 million years ago. How many changes did pikaia have to go through to become us. Imagine that on an alien planet vertebrates never evolved, pikaia could have gone extinct. There is no guarantee that vertebrates would evolve on another planet.

    Speculative evolution video

     

     

  4. I honestly do not think that assuming that an octopus, given a few hundred million years of evolution, couldn't evolve into a space fairing species is a bit of hubris considering what was to be our ancestor several hundred million years ago. Pikaia 

  5. 4 hours ago, beecee said:

    Sure it does, and obviously the octopuse is among the most surprising....

    here's another article...

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/shortcuts/2017/sep/18/octlantis-the-underwater-city-built-by-octopuses

     

    Hve you heard of the Sydney blue ringed octopus? It's bite/poison can kill a grown man in a short time.....................image.png.eed4f18c7922779709a1151e706bc6e5.png

    "At first glance, the blue-ringed octopus looks perfectly innocuous. Its psychedelic coloring and pint-sized packaging make it seem more adorable than alarming. But don’t let its cuddly exterior fool you: this tiny octopus can kill you. And quickly.

    Native to the Pacific Ocean, the blue-ringed octopus can be found in the soft, sandy bottom of shallow tide pools and coral reefs. When not seeking food or a mate, blue-ringed octopuses often hide in crevices, shells or marine debris. If you catch them outside of their cozy hiding spots, it’s easy to see how the animal gets its name: when threatened, bright blue rings appear all over its body as a warning signal to potential predators". 

    more............

    Actually I've kept them in captivity, not much fun as you can't interact with them. I've managed to keep small squids for short periods of time, weeks, I'd love to try cuttlefish I think  they are quite special in intelligence and communication. 

     

    All octopus have a beak and can bite and inject poison but they mostly use it on crabs or other crustaceans. 

    But my point is that on another planet even vertebrates are not a sure thing much less humanoids. 

     

  6. I think it should be said that the octopus in the above video is not your run of the mill octopus, I've never seen one even come close to moving on land like that one did. I've kept dozens in captivity and seen dozens in the wild. I've actually had three, years apart, crawl up out of the surf and attempt to crawl up my leg but in all cases the octopus looked more like a glob of goo with arms flowing along on land. I am fascinated by the above video, the octopus actually is able to maintain it's bodies integrity while moving fast, faster than the crab, which is almost unbelievable on land. If I hadn't seen the video I wouldn't have believed it, I've heard of octopus crawling out of the water around dock and catching rats but that is just hearsay. Oh and an octopus has 9 brains, networked together, but they can act independently as well.

    Natural selection is a harsh mistress but it does produce surprising results. 

    +

  7. On 12/5/2021 at 11:36 PM, iNow said:

    So, if China tries to take control of Taiwan… and intelligence suggests it’s more likely to happen now,than it has been for decades… should the US and any country considered an ally respond? How might they respond?

    China's navy is a poor rival to the US pacific fleet, if the US went into all out war mode China would lose it's navy quite fast, it's aircraft carrier is a joke even to china and so are the planes that fly from it being called some like a flopping fish in Chinese because of their tendency to take off from the carrier and dive into the water.

    Of course that wouldn't necessarily keep china from doing it's best to fight the US but my bet is that china would resort to nuclear weapons if the US actually landed on Chinese soil.

    Russia is a wild card, Putin is an autocrat whose grip on  power is based on his image as much as anything. He might do something crazy just to maintain his shirtless horse riding.    

      

  8. 21 hours ago, beecee said:

    I cannot put it any better then the answer to an inquisitie 14 year old in the following link, and the other links I have given......

    https://theconversation.com/curious-kids-could-octopuses-evolve-until-they-take-over-the-world-and-travel-to-space-156493

    https://psmag.com/environment/planet-octopuses-animal-species-likely-rise-overthrow-humans-67576

    https://www.quora.com/Are-there-any-chances-that-as-octopuses-are-so-intelligent-could-become-the-dominant-species-on-Earth#:~:text=K answer views-,Originally Answered%3A Is there any chances that%2C as octopi are,have a long enough lifespan.

     

    I would also think that any potential Aliens that have overcome the barriers of distance to visit Earth, would be far more likely to be Aliens in the form of those from, "Close Encounters of the Third kind" rather then those envisaged in "Arrival".

    Don't mind also upright walking lizard people! as per "War of the Worlds" 

    Essentially though I see the humanoid form as more likely than others, to undertake the construction, thinking, predictable problem solving, and travelling to the stars.....

    https://next.voxcreative.com/sponsored/11387354/here-are-5-things-serious-scientists-believe-about-extraterrestrial

    "Simon Conway Morris, an evolutionary biologist at Cambridge, thinks there’s a good chance intelligent extraterrestrial life will look a lot like us. Different species independently evolve in similar patterns, Morris argued in The Runes of Evolution, and would likely do the same on other planets. "The things which we regard as most important," he said in an interview, "cognitive sophistication, large brains, intelligence, tool making, are also convergent." If there are other planets that look a lot like planet Earth — and the Kepler spacecraft is discovering that there are — then the likelihood of human-like extraterrestrial intelligence on those planets isn’t a huge stretch. "If the outcomes of evolution are at least broadly predictable," Morris said, "then what applies on Earth will apply across the Milky Way, and beyond."

    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

    On the other hand, (and as mentioned in the above article) our first indication of ETI, maybe artificial and/or robotic...much as our own Voyagers and Pioneer craft, and the attempt at communication via mathematicsa and illustrative geometry. A view held by Seth Shostak of SETI fame.

    Here's another................

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/deep-space/g1592/we-asked-7-experts-what-would-aliens-actually-look-like/

    What do aliens look like?

    "An octopus is a good example of an advanced-alien analogue on Earth. Octopuses are quite (probably human-level) intelligent and live in a totally alien environment (compared with ours). Evolution has had to find novel solutions to the pressures they're under—pressures completely different than those that shaped mammals on land.

    "Dolphins and chimpanzees are extremely close to us—we're all mammals. The last common ancestor for humans and dolphins was around 100 million years ago, and for humans and chimpanzees was about 10 million years ago. Most of the evolutionary choices leading to intelligence were probably made before the splits occurred. The last common ancestor between mammals and octopuses is much, much further back in time, probably 800 million years ago.

    "Aliens with advanced technology would have to be on land (technology needs fire to kick-start it). What would we expect in order to develop a technology comparable to ours? Hands with fingers (for delicate, precise manipulation) are important. At least two legs are needed for locomotion. If it has four legs, think centaurs—you need those hands to build things.

    "You need binocular vision to judge distance (to prey). Elevated head to see predators. Eyes near the brain to reduce the time delay (or degradation) of the visual signal. Sound and smell sensors (ears and nose). Your survival chances improve if you can use all of the ways you can to detect food, mates, and predators. Living in an atmosphere means sounds and smells will arrive before the stinky, noisy predator."

    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

    Other interesting answers in that link.

    I am not a big fan of the super being idea as i think you stated in the ants comparison so maybe you agree with me. 

    How ever natural selection pressures resulting in humanoid aliens is IMHO a big stretch, water selection pressure is quite straight forward.. Every thing from squids to dolphins are under pretty much the same pressure to go through water as fast as possible. This results in a similar body shape due to the physics of moving through water. 

    I'd really like you to elaborate on why octopuses couldn't conquer the land, the only realistic reason i can think of is that vertebrates already dominate the land, remove them and the octopus IMHO could conquer the land given time and selection pressure.

    Land how ever can be quite different from gravity to air content to pressure, I'm not sure I would place a bet on even vertebrates evolving much less humanoids. 

    6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

    They/you are probably right, as thing's stand; but think of life as a more complicated version of Texas holdem poker.

    You're holding pocket aces, I'm holding ace and 2 of spades, and the flop is 10 and 7 of spades and an ace of hearts, as thing's stand you're holding the nuts, but there's 2 more card's to play.

    Let's ask the OP @Moontanman if I've answered his question?

    Exactly, he/she could wag their tail; but couldn't tell you a tale

    Pretty much spot on. 

     

  9. 23 minutes ago, beecee said:

    While our last common ancestor was still millions of years ago, our chimp and gorilla cousins today are unlikely to be star travellers unless accompanying us. What they do have though, that puts them head and shoulders above octopuses and tomato plants, is that humanoid form and some common traits.

    And here he is once again, hypocritically whinging and whining about being condescending, yet still refusing to answer the OP question/s.🤣

    ps: and its tail.

    How do you know the octopus form wouldn't be better if they evolved in the direction of conquering land?  

  10. 3 hours ago, beecee said:

    And Chimps, Magpies, and Orca's just off the top of my head. But building, operating, navigating as space travellers? That's what I mean by dramatic overkill.

    Funny my favourite animals, other than my dogs, are Elephants. I watched a doco entitled "Love and Bananas: An Elephant Story" Literally had me in tears. Another good doco on Orcas is entitled "Blackfish" 

    The Elephant doco  is very much also about a Thai woman named  Lek Chailert, pictured here......10 ethical places you need to go to interact with elephants

    I don't think you would think of our chimp like ancestors as star travelers either, I love the elephants too... 

  11. 4 hours ago, Ghideon said:

    They say it's a "wyrm":
    Wyrm (plural wyrms): (mythology, fantasy) A huge limbless and wingless dragon or dragon-like creature, or sea serpent.*

    But it seems like a good example of British humour?  

    Using camping equipment as a helmet looks like something from Monty Python; see the original video from "Erwin Saunders" (not sure that is his real name) https://youtu.be/3JiFw9g0duE?t=601

    Here is the link to the "Wyrm", 13:48 into the video: https://youtu.be/3JiFw9g0duE?t=828 

     

    *) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyrmhttps://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wyrm

    It did have legs and my first thought was some sort of giant salamander, they do occur in Asia, but this video is not in Asia. I have to admit to being a little bit stupid, I would have tried to catch it, it wasn't "that" big! 

  12. 4 hours ago, beecee said:

    Look, I agree totally that we do under-estimate the intelliegence of animals. I have had dogs all  my life, and after their initial training, they are treated as my equal...particularly the two 55kg plus Rottweilers I had.😉 But I see it as drawing a very long bow to suggest octopuses will ever become space travellers...or colonising Mars, partly because of the reasons you nominated, that  they seem to have hit an revolutionary wall with the whole mate and die thing....unless of course they are already present in some as yet to be discovered underground Ocean/water source on Mars...or Europa!

    No probs, I have always reasoned that way, and see the often used comparison of Aliens and us, as analogous to us and ants, as dramatic overkill...sure they would be advanced, but that same advancement would enable them to recognise our own intellgence, (albeit limited as compared to theirs) but advanced enough to accomplish what we already have. That same level of intelligence on both sides would also see reasonable communication between them and us, (probably helped via mathematics and geometry) as not too great a problem.

    My apologies this time...the joke went way over my head. I probably have expressed this to you before, but my greatest wish in life is for the extraordinary evidence needed to confirm ETL, be discovered before I kick the bucket. That and putting boots on Mars, and I can then die a happy little vegemite!😁

    While that discovery of life elsewhere (in the first instant) will probably be the most simplest form/s of life, any confirmation of an advanced species, will obviously be much further afield. Our two great barriers prohibiting contact between two species of advanced life, is of course time and distance. But wouldn't it be great if in another few hundred years or so, some distant species intercepts one of the Voyagers, interprets the maths and geometry and replies back!!

    I also, (as I expressed earlier and supplied a link) see the humanoid form, roughly speaking, as beneficial for advanced intelligence and space travel, and that space faring aliens certainly would not be octopuses!...or tomato plants.

    In fact I see it as far more likely that we could be exchanging banter with an Alien species a few hundred light years distant, rather than actually them crossing the enormous distances and shaking hands with us.

     

    ps: Good to see you back!

    I wouldn't cross out crows or octopus out of hand, crows are very good at solving problems and using tools, even altering natural objects to improve their use as tools

    Octopus also use tools and some populations actually live in groups and their ability to leave the water seems to mirror the first fishes evolutionary trip to land. Of course we would have to get out of the way. I forgot to mention that off the coast of central America an octopus species was found that lived through at least two or three mattings but the species has not been seen for decades and is presumed extinct. Over fishing may have played a part. If I remember correctly they had fewer young than other octopuses. I ran across this in a book when i was a teenager so i have no source for it so take it with a grain of salt. 

     

  13. I wasn't replying directly to you two but to the whole thread, it is correct I never had a intelligible conversation with an octopus but they do react to my presence and I was able to judge their emotional state as well as interact with them and when they wanted attention they would lift the glass cover and squirt water at me as I  passed by. Once one of them actually squirted water on me while I was being intimate with my wife,, his aim was impeccable.

    The idea that crows, and other intelligent animals,  don't fly star ships is missing the point, a couple million years of evolution and octopus might be colonizing Mars due to the low gravity. It took the human linage 6 or 7 million years to get to the moon. 

    How much interaction with crows have you had? I suggest you do a little research about crows, even wild crows do some amazing things with tools and a complex communication system even bonding with humans who are kind to them and ganging up on humans who are mean to them, remembering the specific humans even years later. 

    Beecee I missed your post on the ants idea, I apologize.  

    Other planes of existence is not the same as the multiverse and has even less evidence but UFO abductees and even some researchers, and i mean real scientists, have frustratingly said it's like they pass in and out of existence as they go some place "else" meaning another plane of existence but I was just making a sarcastic joke when I said it.  

     

  14. Mormyrid fishes have the largest branes compared to body size of any vertebrate and it would seem the part that is the biggest is the part we use to think! I knew they had large brains but this video astonished even me. I have a mormyrid right now, I've had his for 6 months and he has some quite interesting behaviors. One of which is his interest in moving magnets and his voracious apatite. He uses his electric field to bully the other fish away from food and eats like a pig. This video, if anyone is interested, at least partially explains his eating habits and the composition of his brain.   

     

     

  15. As a long term studier of octopus I can assure you they are sapient, but they seem to have hit an revolutionary wall with the whole mate and die thing. Keeping them from mating helps but not much, if you have never kept octopus in captivity and interacted with them on a daily basis it's difficult for me to explain why i take this stance. They have emotions, and even a sense of humor, if not for their short life spans and the high gravity of earth we would be their slaves. 

    I would also like to comment on the idea of aliens being above us as we are ants... talk about speculation!!! In my personal opinion the idea of super beings is bullshit, improbable speculation at least, AI might reach such levels but I have my doubts about that was well. 

     

    BTW we study ants, in very elaborate ways, even if super beings existed there is reason to think that some of them would want to study the rectums' of rednecks... 

    Wouldn't it be a hoot if traveling to other plans of existence turns out to be far easier than star travel? 

  16. There seems to be some interesting chemistry happing in Titan, liquid methane and ethane lakes and seas, with a mysterious loss of hydrogen. 

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Other_solvents_or_cosolvents

     

    Quote

    Methane and other hydrocarbons[edit]

    Methane (CH4) is a simple hydrocarbon: that is, a compound of two of the most common elements in the cosmos: hydrogen and carbon. It has a cosmic abundance comparable with ammonia.[47] Hydrocarbons could act as a solvent over a wide range of temperatures, but would lack polarity. Isaac Asimov, the biochemist and science fiction writer, suggested in 1981 that poly-lipids could form a substitute for proteins in a non-polar solvent such as methane.[47] Lakes composed of a mixture of hydrocarbons, including methane and ethane, have been detected on the surface of Titan by the Cassini spacecraft.

    There is debate about the effectiveness of methane and other hydrocarbons as a solvent for life compared to water or ammonia.[53][54][55] Water is a stronger solvent than the hydrocarbons, enabling easier transport of substances in a cell.[56] However, water is also more chemically reactive and can break down large organic molecules through hydrolysis.[53] A life-form whose solvent was a hydrocarbon would not face the threat of its biomolecules being destroyed in this way.[53] Also, the water molecule's tendency to form strong hydrogen bonds can interfere with internal hydrogen bonding in complex organic molecules.[46] Life with a hydrocarbon solvent could make more use of hydrogen bonds within its biomolecules.[53] Moreover, the strength of hydrogen bonds within biomolecules would be appropriate to a low-temperature biochemistry.[53]

    Astrobiologist Chris McKay has argued, on thermodynamic grounds, that if life does exist on Titan's surface, using hydrocarbons as a solvent, it is likely also to use the more complex hydrocarbons as an energy source by reacting them with hydrogen, reducing ethane and acetylene to methane.[57] Possible evidence for this form of life on Titan was identified in 2010 by Darrell Strobel of Johns Hopkins University; a greater abundance of molecular hydrogen in the upper atmospheric layers of Titan compared to the lower layers, arguing for a downward diffusion at a rate of roughly 1025 molecules per second and disappearance of hydrogen near Titan's surface. As Strobel noted, his findings were in line with the effects Chris McKay had predicted if methanogenic life-forms were present.[56][57][58] The same year, another study showed low levels of acetylene on Titan's surface, which were interpreted by Chris McKay as consistent with the hypothesis of organisms reducing acetylene to methane.[56] While restating the biological hypothesis, McKay cautioned that other explanations for the hydrogen and acetylene findings are to be considered more likely: the possibilities of yet unidentified physical or chemical processes (e.g. a non-living surface catalyst enabling acetylene to react with hydrogen), or flaws in the current models of material flow.[59] He noted that even a non-biological catalyst effective at 95 K would in itself be a startling discovery.[59]

    Azotosome[edit]

    A hypothetical cell membrane termed an azotosome, capable of functioning in liquid methane in Titan conditions was computer-modeled in an article published in February 2015. Composed of acrylonitrile, a small molecule containing carbon, hydrogen, and nitrogen, it is predicted to have stability and flexibility in liquid methane comparable to that of a phospholipid bilayer (the type of cell membrane possessed by all life on Earth) in liquid water.[60][61] An analysis of data obtained using the Atacama Large Millimeter / submillimeter Array (ALMA), completed in 2017, confirmed substantial amounts of acrylonitrile in Titan's atmosphere.[62][63]

     

  17. I think I'd have to trade the anomalocaris for a small species of sauropod, plenty of crustaceans to eat in the ocean already. 

    On 10/26/2021 at 8:25 AM, dimreepr said:

    But that balance wouldn't exist now, it would be a binary system outside a circular system, doomed to mutual destruction again; you can't sustain an ecosystem that's out of time...

    A large part of the subglacial ecosystem still exists, caribou, musk oxen, and smaller animals, you could go ahead and resurrect the woolly rhino, and the aurochs. The northern ecosystem needs these animals to help stop global warming
    https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rstb.2017.0437

    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0217166
        

  18. If you could, lets say you have been granted limited god status, and all you can do is bring back 4 extinct animals in large enough numbers to establish a breeding population, what would they be and why?

     

    Anomalocaris, because they are big and look delicious. 

    Ichthyosaur, Because I'd like to see how they interact with dolphins. The smaller species.

    Liopleurodon, small species, because  i'd like to see them interact with dolphins as well. 

    Woolly Mammoth, because I hope they can genetically engineer one the size of a small pony so I can own one. 

      

  19. 18 hours ago, TheVat said:

     

    I am okay with investigation of anomalies,  and sometimes spotty data can at least suggest a new hypothesis and path for research, but it's good to keep in mind that a sound hypothesis must be capable of disproof.  This is Karl Popper's principle of falsification.  

    But what set of observations can,  in reality,  falsify the ET hypothesis?   It seems to me that,  no matter how many negative results we have (the radar bogey was frozen pee,  the silent light was Las Vegas reflected off the belly of an overweight goose), we can't really rule out that some stealthy ET has visited Earth.   Watching the airspace and environs of Earth is not like watching a sealed room on CCTV.  Things can be missed,  others can be seen and remain unexplained because a sufficient amount of data will never be obtained.    So I think a case can be made that ETs can only be a conjecture (which may at some point be proved to be right -- an alien lands and says howdy,  a crashed spaceship is found not to be of this world,  etc.) and not a scientific hypothesis.   

    And inductive reasoning doesn't help much.   If we look at thousands of observations and find that they have been,  in the past, observations of new experimental aircraft or of optical effects of atmosphere or other terrestrial phenomena, and none of them has ever proved to be an ET, then we are left with nothing to do but apply Ockham's razor.   We have no real empirical foundation of having encountered ETs to build from,  when an anomaly zips by.  

     

    17 hours ago, swansont said:

    There’s the negative proposition - eliminating the possibility, which you can’t do. But there’s the positive proposition - establish that it’s aliens, which AFAICT nobody has come close to doing. The former does not own the burden of proof. The latter does.

    Dou you not think the lack of explanation become important at some point? Show what can cause two weekends of insanity in Washington, DC glowing orbs seen in the sky, integration with both civivilain aircraft, the orbs were see from the ground by hundreds, picked up by two separate ground radars, see by the men who manned those radars even to the point of being able to tell on radar two they are in your area of radar one and the checked and they were there. While none of these things prove anything they certainly do suggest something. 

    What do they suggest to you? 

  20. On 7/18/2021 at 6:52 PM, TheVat said:

    To Moontan,  I can only point out I was not saying there is no evidence of something, only that it is not evidence of ETs.  I have little cause to doubt there are radar anomalies,  and that they are quite fascinating.  And the word for eliciting interest is "pique" and not "peak. "  (yes,  I've got a bit of a pedant in my otherwise spotless character...I can usually squelch the little bugger, but he just runs amuck over spelling... ) 

    Since you were kind enough to point out my grammar I will again point out shreds of real evidence which I also pointed out were not necessarily aliens. How ever it becomes ever more difficult to handwave away the reports that cannot be explained even though prodiditious amounts of evidence exist. 

    Quote

    I think radar returns connected with glowing objects flying over restricted areas reported by both civilian and military personnel in Washington DC, interacting with both civilian and military aircraft constitute solid evidence.

    Turning off ten ICBMs at Malmstrom Air Force Base and at other bases as well is suspicious at the very least.

    I think the government admitting to these radar returns and radar jamming not to mention admitting these objects could constitute a flight hazard to our aircraft and a danger to our nation constitutes a few threads of evidence. 

    None of this makes them aliens but it should peak the interest of any normal people. 

    Hitchens razor can be quite dangerous if not used properly.

     

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