chandragupta

To Bill Angil. Thanks for sharing your thought .Weather God exists or not is dependent on one's faith at present. There is no empirical evidence at present to confirm GOD's existence. This is the universe- size weakness in the argument of existence of god. My idea of God is merely a theory like thousands of other ideas of God which requires empirical or scientific proof. There is a phrase in ADWAIT- VEDANTA re. the issue of proof of the existence of God. This is called " APAROKSHA - ANUBHUTI OF PARMATMA" which is translated in English as "DIRECT EXPERIENCE OF GOD". Till great majority of human beings can directly experience the existence of God by some means , the idea of God will merely be a theory .

1354545695[/url]' post='716599']

This is the point where science and religion converges.

 

Quantum weirdness: What we call 'reality' is just a state of mind

 

So you just don't have to keep hoping, its actually happening, both science and advaita can be reconciled and when scientists begin to realize that the universe doesn't exist when no one is looking at it then they will start taking advaita seriously. Your mind disagrees with this first, its so hard to swallow, you hate this, you desperately try to keep an objective external reality of the world but once you investigate it and as you said contemplate it then you will realize that advaita is indeed true as experiments from quantum mechanics have shattered our cornerstone beliefs.

 

Once you arrive to this conclusion then next advaita says there is a Mind(Manas), behind the mind an Intellect (Buddhi), behind the Intellect the totality of divine powers(the Pleroma of God/Agnisoma Mandala) and behind this is the infinite (unity, Brahman, Ein Sof) or whatever you might want to call it. We can reach up to the Pleroma of God and discuss it through intellect and its affable but anything beyond it is ineffable and therefore should not be spoken.

 

(On a side note there is no word called Pleroma in advaita, its actually a Gnostic concept but they just called the same thing by different names for example:- the Brahmins called the infinite as Brahman and the Kabbalahists called it the Ein Sof.)

 

 

 

As I told I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

Thanks. My understanding of adwaita or nondualism is not very deep. So could I very humbly request you to improve upon it or even correct it completely from the perspective of your own knowledge, personal experience & scholarship ?

1354536626[/url]' post='716577']

This is a much more substantive argument compared to your past arguments and if you concentrate on this one keeping aside god and dimensionless awareness which are vague terms then there will be much point in what you're arguing.

Immortal: Thanks for support.

1354530329[/url]' post='716564']

This experience of man in his dream sleep state that he becomes dimensionless awareness who perceives four dimensional dream world all within himself is very significant in adwaitic or nondualistic thought. This is so because of the original idea of god in adwaita or nondualism which is :-"Before the beginning of time & after the end of time god becomes dimensionless awareness & after the beginning of time & before the end of time god becomes four dimensional space time".

 

 

 

For man wakeful state universe is real from his wakeful state perspective. For man dream sleep state universe is real from his dream sleep perspective Man says :- dream sleep state universe is unreal from his wakeful state perspective. Idea of adwaita or nondualism says :- by repeated contemplation & meditation man can reach a perspective higher than wakeful state perspective & from this higher perspective he would then realize that even the wakeful state universe is as unreal as his dream sleep state universe.

If by repeated contemplation & meditation on the lines propounded above, man succeeds in acquiring the aforesaid perspective which is higher than that of the wakeful state & thus begins to accept the possibility that wakeful state universe might also be as unreal as the dream sleep state universe, then it is inevitable that he would ask the question :-" then, what is the source of all this unreality called wakeful state universe ?

1354541497[/url]' post='716583']

Immortal: Thanks for support.

 

 

If by repeated contemplation & meditation on the lines propounded above, man succeeds in acquiring the aforesaid perspective which is higher than that of the wakeful state & thus begins to accept the possibility that wakeful state universe might also be as unreal as the dream sleep state universe, then it is inevitable that he would ask the question :-" then, what is the source of all this unreality called wakeful state universe ?

Therefore the idea of adwaita or nondualism attempts to answer this very question by putting forward a tentative view that this wakeful state universe is a self-willed dream of a higher being aka god & hence this iconic idea of adwaita or nondualism that "before the beginning of time & at the end of time god becomes dimensionless awareness AND after the beginning of time & before the end of time god becomes four dimensional space time".

1354480934[/url]' post='716485']

Night dream state experience of human beings is unusual in another way & it is this :- In this state, man, even though he remains an aware being, is unaware of the physical body of his wakeful state & not only that he is also unaware of the entire wakeful universe.

Furthermore, as said earlier, man perceives a dream universe in this state which appears to him as being 'real' while he is in this state.

 

 

 

Thus in his dream sleep state man becomes dimensionless awareness who perceives four dimensional dream world.

This experience of man in his dream sleep state that he becomes dimensionless awareness who perceives four dimensional dream world all within himself is very significant in adwaitic or nondualistic thought. This is so because of the original idea of god in adwaita or nondualism which is :-"Before the beginning of time & after the end of time god becomes dimensionless awareness & after the beginning of time & before the end of time god becomes four dimensional space time".

1354527087[/url]' post='716564']

This experience of man in his dream sleep state that he becomes dimensionless awareness who perceives four dimensional dream world all within himself is very significant in adwaitic or nondualistic thought. This is so because of the original idea of god in adwaita or nondualism which is :-"Before the beginning of time & after the end of time god becomes dimensionless awareness & after the beginning of time & before the end of time god becomes four dimensional space time".

For man wakeful state universe is real from his wakeful state perspective. For man dream sleep state universe is real from his dream sleep perspective Man says :- dream sleep state universe is unreal from his wakeful state perspective. Idea of adwaita or nondualism says :- by repeated contemplation & meditation man can reach a perspective higher than wakeful state perspective & from this higher perspective he would then realize that even the wakeful state universe is as unreal as his dream sleep state universe.

1354457951[/url]' post='716403']

In the idea of adwaita or nondualism special attention is given to the dream-sleep state experience of humanity. This state of humanity is unique in the sense that during it man is an aware being & perceives a non-self willed dream world which he regards as 'real' while undergoing this dream- sleep experience .

 

 

 

Extrapolating from the dream sleep state experience of humanity, idea of adwaita or nondualism makes a suggestion - could this human experience of waking state also be a dream experience initiated by dimensionless awareness ?

Night dream state experience of human beings is unusual in another way & it is this :- In this state, man, even though he remains an aware being, is unaware of the physical body of his wakeful state & not only that he is also unaware of the entire wakeful universe.

Furthermore, as said earlier, man perceives a dream universe in this state which appears to him as being 'real' while he is in this state.

1354478462[/url]' post='716485']

Night dream state experience of human beings is unusual in another way & it is this :- In this state, man, even though he remains an aware being, is unaware of the physical body of his wakeful state & not only that he is also unaware of the entire wakeful universe.

Furthermore, as said earlier, man perceives a dream universe in this state which appears to him as being 'real' while he is in this state.

Thus in his dream sleep state man becomes dimensionless awareness who perceives four dimensional dream world.

In the idea of adwaita or nondualism special attention is given to the dream-sleep state experience of humanity. This state of humanity is unique in the sense that during it man is an aware being & perceives a non-self willed dream world which he regards as 'real' while undergoing this dream- sleep experience .

1354450962[/url]' post='716403']

In the idea of adwaita or nondualism special attention is given to the dream-sleep state experience of humanity. This state of humanity is unique in the sense that during it man is an aware being & perceives a non-self willed dream world which he regards as 'real' while undergoing this dream- sleep experience .

Extrapolating from the dream sleep state experience of humanity, idea of adwaita or nondualism makes a suggestion - could this human experience of waking state also be a dream experience initiated by dimensionless awareness ?

1354379634[/url]' post='716228']

This raises the intriguing scientific question :- as to what is the nature & structure of space?

According to the idea of adwaita or nondualism structure of space is that of awareness, more particularly that of dimensionless awareness , who has become four dimensional space time by the process of self- willed dreaming from the beginning of time & would remain so till the end of time.

1354376388[/url]' post='716206']

I am now taking the adwaitic or nondualistic idea further. Thus, in this hypothesis of adwaita or nondualism, cosmic space is conceived as 'mind of god'. Here the word 'mind' is being used very tentatively on account of the lack of a better term on my part at present.

 

This idea of adwaita or nondualism that cosmic space can be conceived as mind of god takes us one step further & it is this :- That we, no no, not only we but the entire universe of space time exists inside the mind of god as a mere dream.

This raises the intriguing scientific question :- as to what is the nature & structure of space?

I am now taking the adwaitic or nondualistic idea further. Thus, in this hypothesis of adwaita or nondualism, cosmic space is conceived as 'mind of god'. Here the word 'mind' is being used very tentatively on account of the lack of a better term on my part at present.

This idea of adwaita or nondualism that cosmic space can be conceived as mind of god takes us one step further & it is this :- That we, no no, not only we but the entire universe of space time exists inside the mind of god as a mere dream.

To sum up, adwaitic or nondualistic idea is that before the beginning of time & after the end of time god becomes dimensionless awareness AND after the beginning of time & before the end of time god becomes four dimensional space time AND this idea could be expressed in the form of a formula which, (with due debt to Einstein), is as follows :- A = e = mc2 . Here A represents awareness (dimensionless awareness I.e. god ), e represents energy , m represents mass (I.e. matter). In this idea the process by which dimensionless awareness aka god becomes four dimensional space time is called self- willed dreaming on the part of this dimensionless awareness. In human experience this self- willed dreaming is the phenomenon called day dreaming. The big issue is can this whole idea be tested by scientists?

To sum up, adwaitic or nondualistic idea is that before the beginning of time & after the end of time god becomes dimensionless awareness AND after the beginning of time & before the end of time god becomes four dimensional space time AND this idea could be expressed in the form of a formula which, (with due debt to Einstein), is as follows :- A = e = mc2 . Here A represents awareness (dimensionless awareness I.e. god ), e represents energy , m represents mass (I.e. matter). In this idea the process by which dimensionless awareness aka god becomes four dimensional space time is called self- willed dreaming on the part of this dimensionless awareness. In human experience this self- willed dreaming is the phenomenon called day dreaming. The big issue is can this whole idea be tested by scientists?

Thanks Peter: Your thought requires lots of thinking over. I agree, some predictions are necessary. You mentioned earlier that you already have some predictions. Is it possible for you to share them with me on PM.

The counterpart in human beings ( of this self-willed dreaming process of dimension awareness I.e. god ) is called ' day dreaming'.

Thus in adwaitic or nondualistic parlance -space time energy matter complex- is hypothesized as being a kind of day dream of dimensionless awareness aka god.

Peter : What do you think of expressing the same idea which we discussed together a short while earlier, in another way which also does not seem to be dogmatic so as not to draw the ire of atheists. This is as follows :- In adwaitic or nondualistic hypothesis the process by which the dimensionless awareness I.e. god becomes energy- matter duo can be described as a kind of self- willed dreaming process on the part of this dimensionless awareness.

1354211908[/url]' post='715833']

Had to comment on this Chandra. Would it not be more rigorous to say that it is as if the universe were a dream of God, or that this would be a way of putting it? We should be careful not to encourage literal interpretations end up in a pointless battle with the atheists.

Thanks Peter: you are absolutely right. I now correct myself & put the idea in the manner you have suggested that the universe is as if it were a dream of god.

1354182243[/url]' post='715718']

In adwaitic or nondualistic idea the process by which the dimensionless awareness becomes energy- matter duo is awarenessball self- willed dreaming process.

In other words, according to adwaitic or nondualistic idea, universe is a dream of god.

In adwaitic or nondualistic idea the process by which the dimensionless awareness becomes energy- matter duo is awarenessball self- willed dreaming process.

Adwaitic idea or nondualistic idea that before the beginning of time & after the end of time god becomes dimensionless awareness AND after the beginning of time & before the end of time god becomes four dimensional space time can be expressed as a formula which,with due debt to Einstein, is represented as follows:- A = e = mc2 where A represents dimensionless awareness of god , e represents energy & m represents mass ( i.e. matter). This formula expresses the adwaitic or nondualistic idea of equivalence or interchangeability of dimensionless awareness on one hand & that of energy-matter duo on the other.

I invite all adwaitic thinkers or nondualist thinkers to come forward & join in the following reconfigured idea of formless god & formation & dissolution of space time:- BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF TIME & AFTER THE END OF TIME GOD BECOMES DIMENSIONLESS AWARENESS AND AFTER THE BEGINNING OF TIME & BEFORE THE END OF TIME GOD BECOMES FOUR DIMENSIONAL SPACE TIME.

1353943631[/url]' post='715206']

Chandragupta's posts are admirably courteous. They're a lesson in how to be polite.

 

And they attempt, eloquently, to convey Indian mystical thoughts - the "Wisdom of the East". Such "wisdom" may look impressive at first sight. But it falls down when analysed linguistically. For example, every word in the "Vedas" seems to carry about ten different possible meanings. Can such vagueness convey precision of thought? Surely not - English is needed to clarify and pin down the meanings.

 

Also, the question arises: has Eastern mysticism ever brought any tangible benefits - like inventing steam-engines and railways. India owes its railways to 19th-Century Westerners, who came in and built them - using Western Sciencee and Engineering. No Eastern gods or demi-gods helped in the construction.

 

So unless Eastern mysticism can demonstrate some practical results, shouldn't it be thrown into the dustbin of history?

Dekan: Thanks. I have myself wondered many times on your lines. Impossible at present is to include awareness into any form of extreme mathematics available to date. Till Einsteins of the present & the future invent another kind of Mathematical model which could enable awareness to take part into the " theory of every thing", god model of humanity will only be a theory.

1353777646[/url]' post='714933']

Oh dear. It seems we nothing to argue about.

 

Good to meet you though. Not many people delve into these issues.

Peter: I could not retrieve your your message because of my computer - illiteracy. Don't mind the flake. Let us move the adwaitic dialogue forward together. We owe it to this thread. Also remember, it is is you who brought me back into this thread when onslaught from all sides had forced me to retreat.

1353948663[/url]' post='715222']

Can you cite the passage where they state that "Before the beginning of time & at the end of time god becomes "dimensionless awareness" AND after the beginning of time & before the end of time god becomes " four dimensional space time""? Don't try to put forward your personal speculation or pet theories as the views of Advaita.

Thanks. This has not come out from any external source. This has come out from my own inner self. I hope you would accept this.

1353777646[/url]' post='714933']

Oh dear. It seems we nothing to argue about.

 

Good to meet you though. Not many people delve into these issues.

Peter: To take our adwaitic dialogue further from the stage where we left it earlier :- I considered your view re. the word 'point' & the word 'consciousness'. I now reconfigure the idea & pose the question :- Before the beginning of time & at the end of time god becomes "dimensionless awareness" AND after the beginning of time & before the end of time god becomes " four dimensional space time".

1353849984[/url]' post='715043']

Yeah WTF, I am not afraid of atheists at least they don't interfere into these issues but I am more concerned of half-baked philosophers who try to misrepresent both science and religion. It seems Sam Harris, an atheist shows more wisdom and knowledge about the wisdom traditions than the other two elites when he says that mystics try to understand their relationship with the world by sitting inside a cave for weeks and they are searching for completely different things and this has nothing to do with the world of quantum physics.

 

 

This is a hymn where they praise the feminine Goddess, describing her in every detail and their epistemology is inherently different.

 

http://dc217.4shared.com/img/313472087/c52fcff0/dlink__2Fdownload_2F313472087_2Fc52fcff0_3Ftsid_3D00000000-000000-00000000/preview.mp3

 

 

Ajakshaya vinirmukta mugdha kshipra prasadini

Antarmukha samaradhya bahirmukha sudurlabha .. 162

 

- Lalitha Sahasranamam

 

Ajaya: For whom there is no birth.

Kshaya vinirmukta: Whom there is no decay also.

Mugdha: Who is attractive by her artless beauty and innocence.

Kshipra prasadini: Who is easily pleased.

Antarmukha samaradhya: Whose worship is easy for those whose, mental gaze is turned inward.

Bahirmukha sudurlabha: Whose worship difficult for those whose mental gaze goes outwards.

 

Bahirmukha means knowing the world through the sense organs and Antarmukha means knowing the world without the sense organs. In fact there are no words in English to describe this and western philosophers don't know about this. Kant thought that all our knowledge has to come from the sense organs and hence he thought that it is forever impossible to know the noumenon but eastern religions state that there is an another way of knowing the world and that is by gaining knowledge without the sense organs or through a form of intuitive access to the numinous and this is what all wisdom traditions try to know and therefore religion doesn't really deal with the empirical world and the only message that advaita or any other wisdom traditions give to physicists is that physicists are basically asking the wrong questions and must take the human mind far more seriously. There are a few physicists like Penrose, Bernard and others who argue that a final theory of everything must include a model of the human mind in it and that's when non-dualistic Advaita will be really tested and that's where the pantheon of the Vedic gods come into the picture.

 

So science deals with one thing and advaita deals with another, science deals with the phenomenon and advaita deals with the noumenon.

Immortal :- I am so pleased to have met you through this cyber space. Lots of things you have stated, strike a chord. The issue of quantum singularity & its infinities joining up with adwatic ' one & only formless', this you found extremely controversial & I respect that. As I said in earlier post, the meeting of the two will be very very difficult & will probably be impossible. The point here I shall like to emphasize is that great bulk of my thoughts re. Adwaita are in complete resonance with your posting above.

1353771444[/url]' post='714915']

You, me and Schroedinger then. It's a start. I'd attempt to develop this idea into something that makes predictions if I could just check my ideas without always getting bogged down in hopeless arguments about religion. It's a perfectly scientific idea and testable up to point, but I'm unable to find a serious scientist who wants to talk about it. It is assumed that if physics cannot understand the world, the nature of Nature, then nobody else can. But not by my hero Erwin Schroedinger. He saw that the advaita view makes sense in physics, and that it would make sense that it should have been known to the writers of the Upanishads and throughout the wisdom traditions. This is one of the hardest things to explain to someone for whom the world is merely physical, or merely psycho-physical.

 

I expect these writers would have fascinated by quantum mechanics. It is truly amazing that it is possible to come so close to actually seeing with our physical instruments what they were talking about. My guess is that their view would fascinate a lot of scientists despite themselves if they looked into it. The trouble is that there is, as far as I know, not one good book exploring the ramifications of this view for physics. I'm trying to write something modest, but before I go any further I need to find a competent physcist who will help me ensure that I don't make a damn fool of myself in the process. So I keep trying to interest someone. In the war between science and religion Schroedinger's view is the collateral damage, being the reconciliation of the two and thus judged by both sides to be the enemy.

PeterJ. : You stated:- " The trouble is that there is, as far as I know, not one good book exploring the ramifications of this view for physics. I am trying to write something modest, but before I go any further I need to find a competent physicist, who will help me insure that I don't make a dammed fool of myself in the process". Peter , I request you very very strongly to go ahead with your above mentioned plan. Meanwhile , we shall keep our dialogue continuing & hopefully some more people who are viewing this site & feel connected with the idea of non dualism & of quantum world, will gather courage & join us in a constructive way to lend support & also root out extraneous elements.

1353778601[/url]' post='714935']

What the fuck singularity has anything to do with Conscious experiences? Let's confine the idea of singularity while talking about Black holes, shall we? If matter arises out of consciousness then a singularity and a black hole cannot exist out there, they exist only in your mind and hence science and advaita doesn't and cannot meet. Now you are indeed misrepresenting both science and advaita. Don't try to forcibly make them shake hands with each other they doesn't fit so easily.

1353778601[/url]' post='714935']

What the fuck singularity has anything to do with Conscious experiences? Let's confine the idea of singularity while talking about Black holes, shall we? If matter arises out of consciousness then a singularity and a black hole cannot exist out there, they exist only in your mind and hence science and advaita doesn't and cannot meet. Now you are indeed misrepresenting both science and advaita. Don't try to forcibly make them shake hands with each other they doesn't fit so easily.

Immortal :- I whole heartedly agree with the very last bit of your statement 'they don't fit so easily'. Very very difficult indeed would be this journey. May even be impossible. But try we must even if we fail. We all live or die with our dreams & hopes. Thanks for your your wonderful input. I shall always remember constructive criticism of your's .

1353771444[/url]' post='714915']

You, me and Schroedinger then. It's a start. I'd attempt to develop this idea into something that makes predictions if I could just check my ideas without always getting bogged down in hopeless arguments about religion. It's a perfectly scientific idea and testable up to point, but I'm unable to find a serious scientist who wants to talk about it. It is assumed that if physics cannot understand the world, the nature of Nature, then nobody else can. But not by my hero Erwin Schroedinger. He saw that the advaita view makes sense in physics, and that it would make sense that it should have been known to the writers of the Upanishads and throughout the wisdom traditions. This is one of the hardest things to explain to someone for whom the world is merely physical, or merely psycho-physical.

 

I expect these writers would have fascinated by quantum mechanics. It is truly amazing that it is possible to come so close to actually seeing with our physical instruments what they were talking about. My guess is that their view would fascinate a lot of scientists despite themselves if they looked into it. The trouble is that there is, as far as I know, not one good book exploring the ramifications of this view for physics. I'm trying to write something modest, but before I go any further I need to find a competent physcist who will help me ensure that I don't make a damn fool of myself in the process. So I keep trying to interest someone. In the war between science and religion Schroedinger's view is the collateral damage, being the reconciliation of the two and thus judged by both sides to be the enemy.

Welcome to this extraordinary world of adwaita or non dualism & reconciliation with the extraordinary world of quanta. Now the journey begins to explore the twilight zone where these two worlds will meet one day (as meet they must).