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JustinW

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Everything posted by JustinW

  1. iNow, This is why you can't even admit that the arguments I present are valid? OK. I wasn't referring to the sites in which you obtain your information. I was referring to those that champion the trash talking of this country, like the sarcastic cheerleading that you have entertained and now Zapatos has chosen to duplicate. But free speach is free speach I guess, and you're entitled to your own. John, And there are plenty of people who refuse to get work. As are you sir, refusing to let facts disturb your beliefs. Attack the facts, not my beliefs. Can you produce anything that says an unemployed person earns too much to be admitted to Medicaid? Oh the fact that the US even reports still births in the ratings no matter what the weight. And here from the last link Does this seem like they are fairly consistant across the world. Even the OECD warns against comparing countries by these ratings, so why do you insist that we must and that that is as accurate as can be? That was directed at iNow. He insisted that the majority of the population in Cuba and French Polynesia were black. I proved otherwise and was hoping he would admitt when he was wrong. I'm not arguing that fact. I was stating the reason that we do, and that our current rate of pay is closer to normal in a free market compared with our economic output. That is what the line was showing. If they were comparing it to something don't you think they would have said what. By your willingness to assume, why couldn't they be comparing the rates of Colorado with the rest of the states since they were talking about Colorado? Why do you think that it wasn't that they were just saying that the rates are worse than they would like to see and that it was a retorhical "bad"? I'm just saying you're assuming something that isn't likely. My evidence? I've never produced any evidence that says "the US's white infant death rate is higher than NHS nation's white infant death rate." That was an assumption on your part and I asked you to provide the numbers for it. And if you want to assert that I have provided information stating that fact, I would also ask you to tell me where? No I'm not trolling, though I doubt you would believe me anyway. You cannot attack the validity of my argument so you wish to misdirect the conversation. Or at least that is what I'm getting from your repetitive trolling remarks.
  2. Bilko, Especially you and me. We shouldn't judge the world on what it should be, but rather what it is and what we're capable of. Now if I saw someone who was truely in need of help, my empathy and sympathy would drive me to help that person because I would not only feel bad for that person, but would also feel bad about myself if I didn't. My point in people taking responsibility for their own lives is just that. I can't expect the next person to feel the same way as I do about that kind of situation, and I darn sure can't mandate that they do. There is a difference in helping out your neighbor, who might be going through some hard times, and mandating that we give a handout to a whole nation in which a large part are likely to take advantage. I've personally seen it with the programs that we have already, and I strongly feel that we need to rein in the abuse of those programs before we even think about implementing a larger one. So what you're basing your argument on is that it is unfair that there are rich people. It is unfair that someone can make good decisions in their lives so that the future generations of their family have it better than they do. And that the future generations should bear the burden because of it. It has already been shown in this thread that the rich pay just as much for healthcare as the average citizen. Why should they pay more for the same product? Just because they made the right choices in life? I expect the government to crack down on the abuse that is going on in their current programs. If they do that properly, then it would allow room to encompass the truly needy, instead of those who manipulate the system because they somehow feel entitled to something free from their government. John, I do. And each and every person in this world has the power to work towards their future. What? I was talking about population of black decendants of NHS nations compared to the population of the US. What are you talking about? Yes it does. Hence the blue line in the graph. That is exactly what I was talking about. I beg to differ.Your replies in Post #2 So we can go ahead and ignore the fact that different countries use different criteria succh as weight, function, and age, when here in the US the smallest indication of life is reported? You don't think that even remotely throws the figures off? And even that coupled with my other arguements on the subject don't add up to this larger mortality number? I don't believe I'm the one ignoring things here. This supports my take on the matter http://health.usnews...0924/2healy.htm You're going to have to prove this assertion. When I make statements like this someone always demands me to show evidence. It's ah...what does iNow call it...oh yeah, drawing a conclusion from incredulity. It says they are bad. It doesn't say that they are worse than the rest of the world. I refer you to the top of this post where I mention to Sgt. Bilko about our current government programs. And secondly because I enjoy the freedom of choice which will have a chance to be taken if a government is allowed to dictate it. Zapatos, OOH, you got me there. iNow, It's a result of you taking the information given to you for granted as being factual and listening to people that would have you believe that America is the real evil in the world. It seems that we already do this, just without the punishment fee. A Trip, Have you even looked for something you could afford? And, is there a reason that you can't get a full time job so you can afford it?
  3. Bilko, Not to the point of not being able to provide for yourself and your family. A lot of the successfull people I know didn't even get a high school diploma. Zapatos, And my return point was that they will keep you alive until you can provide yourself health insurance. That which you should have already provided for yourself. At which I shrug my shoulders and think "that is the price we pay for freedom". I never said the cost was cheap did I?
  4. Captain, You said so yourself. So why do you think of it as a bad thing? There's is one thing you won't see from us and that's the use of unwarranted threats like those from North Korea or Iran. The shooting off of rockets against international treaty or the shooting down of public aircraft without confirming intent. I would say that we have made our fair share of mistakes, but there is a reason that we remain stronger than the rest and show that strength. You've already asserted that fact and I'm wondering why you disagree with it? Can you imagine what we would think if you did? Please don't take that wrong, it just gave me a little chuckle when I read it.
  5. iNow, Yeah you are repeating yourself. We're back to "the rich don't pay their fair share" boohoohoo. Do I need to give the whole "personal responsibility" speech again. Them pesky ass wealthy people, damn them for making the right choices with their lives. The rich pay just as much for their healthcare as the average person does. Why should they pay more? Because they're rich? They should be made to carry the people, who make poor decisions, on their backs. They should be responsible for people that won't take responsibility for themselves? And the government should force them to do this? Yeah, that's what this country was built on. And so the Tyranny begins. Do you have a reply for my last rebuttal on the majority of which country are black? And if there could possibly be any other factors in these mortality ratings other than it's because of our "supposedly s***y healthcare"? John, The data you're talking about was being used to make an entirely different point than you were suggesting from it. I explained in my last reply to you of what I was refering to. This was just a comment that reflected economists job as a whole with the most recent recession. I thought dry humor was big over in your part of the world. I guess I was wrong. I've never replied with just BAH. As I recall my rebuttal followed immediately. As I recall I've asserted two different reasons of why infant mortality rates shouldn't be used in the healthcare argument. And instead of attacking the validity of it, you seem to say that they are just right-wings bad statistics, without even saying how there bad. If they're bad, tell me how. It also seems to me that I pointed out that the WHO were equally as biased in support of government run programs. But do I blow the group off as left-wing nut jobs? No, I don't. I just pick apart how they gather their information and list factors that they do not take into consideration when comparing two fundamentally different systems.Can you say that there are no differences in reporting when it comes to infant mortality rates? You've said so before, but I recall finding out differently. No it doesn't. I never said that whites don't have infant mortality rates as well. I just said that blacks were two and sometimes three times as bad. Christ man, is there such thing as a good death rate. I think by your own admission you concede to my point here. Do you even know the "BAD" figures for whites? And I can make that assertion when one group's rate is two and three times higher than the other group. I think you just want to twist this around to your own view point, but can't quite get it done. Or maybe that's just me being a troll again. Zapatos, Thank you for the correction. While what you say is true, the fact is that the ER will make sure that none of those things are killing you at the moment. Another question I have is... Does anyone know why those people aren't on one of the government programs if they can't afford to buy private insurance.
  6. One question...who drinks ice tea while they eat skittles? I find that highly suspicious in itself.
  7. iNow, Because it based it's study off of what the family members thought was the reason for them not going to the hospital. If you want to base this argument off of sob stories just let me know. I'm sure I can produce many that come from NHS nations. You can't tell me that the camera operator who had an appendicitis couldn't have walked into an ER with his symptoms and wouldn't have been treated because he lacked health insurance. If he thought the cost was too much, then he was under a false illusion. Death doesn't cost him a thing. Which one would you have chosen? Not to mention, why should I accept figures from the American Journal of Health (that conducts it's studies with universities that have been known for it's biased political views) over the Institute of Medicine (who have remained fairly independant without any rumors of political/social bias)? Are you seriously saying that someone with an appendicitis doesn't know that something is terribly wrong with them. I guess I could see this point in some cases, but not with an overwhelming majority of these people as you would have me believe. When the hell did I say that NO ONE ever dies from lack of healthcare. I just don't agree in making it sound like people are dropping like flies out in the streets due to the lack of healthcare. And my entire point was that these people could have gone to an ER for treatment. Do people in NHS nations die from not going to the hospital when they should? Do they? I wonder how many out of a population as big as ours? Which part? The part where African American have an exponentially higher rate of infant mortality? Or the part where blacks make up 12.6% of our population compared to 2% of the UK's? Or is it the part where the at-risk babies are born to black women without regard to income or education? What part can I not reach a fair assumption from? Yeah they do matter. Like the link you provided me stated that in French Polynesia, polynesians made up 78% of the population. Last time I checked polynesians weren't black. And in Cuba 65% of the population is white. Hardly a majority of blacks in either of the countries you cited. The reason that the UK was picked was because it had one of the most abundant population of African or black decendants of NHS nations. I still doubt this statement. The only fair point that I've heard so far is that we spend too much on it. But that can be adressed in different ways other than changing our system into a government run system. John, We have a different system than Norway. As where Norway supresses their spending, Americans are free to spend however much they want. The line in the graph is where spending meets outcome. Where you can say that one no longer gets a "bang for their buck". Now keep in mind these are economists talking so who knows... But when you say this I can't agree with you. You haven't given me anything that can't be disputed. And in my mind a transformation of our system needs to be for reasons that have more weight to them.
  8. We are, don't you know that? Yeah, you're probably right. Maybe they just see white on black crime as more of a story than black on white crime. Plus if the stats are true, black on black crime is more prevailant than either. You would think that Rev.Jesse Jackson would get on board to stop the violence between themselves in their own community.(hopefully without inciting violence with anyone else) But I believe with the actions of the social activists that speakout on behalf of the African American community in this country that they are more interested in a political agenda rather than solving real issues. And I'm not saying that things like this Martin/Zimmerman case are not real issues, but you would think that popular figures in social groups would lend their voices at other times to things like prison population, education, job skills, crime rates, etc... But, and this might have more to do with the media than anything, the only time the majority of this country ever hears from those figures is when something that can be construde as racist happens. I guess all I'm really saying is that I would like to see those social/community organizers doing more for their community than just raising hell when something like this happens. If they did have more of a voice on regular issues, they might have more of a impact on issues where racism is involved.(and hopefully a peacefull impact)
  9. Why the change in demographics? Do you see a growth in immigration to the US more than there has been over the past decade or two? I know that some of the liberal dems are talking about amnesty, but I doubt they will get anything passed that is that dramatic. It seems to me that any racial differences that exist in the US have always existed. So why do you feel such a big change in demographic?
  10. ewmon, Yeah, I myself have had a horrible experience with Florida's crime lab. Though I'm sure it's not the same one, nothing would surprise me after the clash I had with them. Maybe that is someone's intention. You know how the public likes a good scandal. I don't know...some things seem mighty suspicious, while on the other hand I keep telling myself that there has to be a reason for officials to be acting like Zimmerman is innocent. Just out of curiousity, what are the qualifications of becoming a forensic voice expert. I've never heard of one.
  11. iNow I have a few problems with that. (you knew I would) from your link, First of all, you mean to tell me that these people couldn't get treated for their lack of insurance? Bah..the part I bolded explains it all. They CHOSE not to seek medical attention. If you're experiencing symptoms of something that has the potential to kill you, are you not going to go to the ER? Owing someone money is better than being dead. Not to mention medical bills will not affect your credit as long as you pay on them. It doesn't matter if it's five dollars a month, as long as you pay SOMETHING on them you don't have to worry about them affecting your credit. So what is the real reason people like that choose not to go to the hospital? The second problem I have is with the estimate itself. The lowest estimate I've read so far has been 18000. So we're somewhere between 18000 and 45000. That's an awfull big gap and one that could be chocked up to stupidity or laziness for not going to the ER when they should have. Pay attention man. I've bolded the important part. The fact of this matter is that no one knows why the numbers are so much larger for African Americans than whites or hispanics. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with healthcare. You still didn't answer my question. With 6 times the population of blacks in the US compared to the UK, wouldn't it be safe to assume that this is one of the reasons our numbers are higher? And that considering the numbers (US 38 million-UK 1.5 million), it's great that our numbers aren't even higher. John, No, but I was implying that you misread the whole point of the graph. I believe, at the time, I was trying to relate the fact that our purchasing power far exceeds the rest of the world and this could be one of the reasons that we spend more per capita. From the link, this is the point I was trying to make there.
  12. ewmon, If this is the case then I can definitely see your point. If this is the way Zimmerman was thinking before the incident happened then the police were justified in telling him to back off, Martin would have had every right to be fearful, and Zimmerman's intentions appear to be starting trouble rather than defending his neighborhood against it.
  13. Phi, I don't recall demanding that you remain in the discussion. If you're that exasperated feel free to leave it at anytime. Yes I am. For the most part I am. Nobody's presented any that can be used to justify a change to universal healthcare from private. The price tag for the US healthcare system is probably the only legitamate argument I've heard so far. Even though I would pay more for better quality. That of which I will get into in more detail in just a minute. Toasty, You're implying that Americans are dying on the streets for lack of healthcare coverage? Anyone from anywhere can walk into an ER at anytime and recieve treatment. Not to mention, if we look at this like John looks at mortality rates we could say, "if there's more then we should assume that the system is worse." Overcrowded hospitals could imply an unhealthier community, but I'm not going to argue that view since it would be incorrect. My point in arguing wait times was for the simple fact that people are wanting to change the system to make it better. Longer wait times do not imply a better system in my mind. And we already have programs that cover those who can be considered in the poverty level, so there really isn't a need to withdraw into this state of instinctive criminal behavior. Your opinion is always welcome. Now, back to some more info on infant mortality ratings and another cause as to why the US' is higher than those in Western Europe. This was pointed out to me the other day and normally I wouldn't look at race to justify an argument, but the gap in percentages were quite large and shouldn't be ignored when talking about mortality rates. http://www.kunc.org/post/why-african-american-infant-mortality-rate-so-high From link, It seems that African Americans have a much higher rate of infant mortality than either whites or hispanics. Up to two or three times the rate in some cases. Now, since the population of blacks in the US is 12.6% compared to 2% in the U.K., and since the highest rate of pregnancies are among minorities, couldn't this be a reason that the US sees higher infant mortality rates?
  14. I argue a point as a reason to NOT have healthcare, and you rebut with a something that doesn't even apply to the situation. Is this how you handle all your arguments? I just gave a reason as to why. Sure I wonder how those wait times help cut those costs? There may be a couple of exceptions, but not many. You use a couple of things to prove your point on this. One I knew had to have a reasonable explanation, since I know our quality is the best, and since it was so eloquently pointed out to me earlier I can't help but mention it. If I had more time I would do that very thing this instant, but it's going to have to wait until tomorrow I'm afraid. Keep telling yourself that, somethings I wouldn't trade for piece of mind. Especially that kind.
  15. Oh I've been doing some reading up on some of these organizations you keep spitting out information from. This is the Commonwealth's mission statement. Now how can you bash my sources for being biased when yours are just as biased. An advocacy group is still an advocacy group, no matter how you want to spin it. iNow, I believe I asked a question. How can your "critical-time" dilemma be a reason that supports the change to universal healthcare?
  16. And my other sources were from 1998 and 2001. I was using them to establish that waiting times are a problem. If this part of our argument is just about doctors being over-booked and not working after-hours, then this problem is simple to explain. There are not enough doctors and those that there are work a full work day, in regular workday hours. (just like the majority of the country work at this same well established timeline) Would you have every general practitioner be on call 24hrs a day and through the weekend just because someone doesn't want to go to the ER if their doctor's office isn't open? And how can this "critical time" dilemma possibly be one of the reasons to support a universal healthcare stance? From what I see this critical-time problem doesn't relate to healthcare quality rather than quantity, which wont be solved by adding millions of more potential patients without adding doctors too. What, are we going to have the government start mandating who does what job and where? Are we going to have to pay out incentives for more people to go to med school. I'm sure that would help to cut costs. I hope I have the meaning of this "critical-time" phrase correct.
  17. toasty, No not really, but the way you said "we are heading for a world where the wealthiest are in control" seemed to imply that it hasn't always been so. And maybe I said poor wrong. Maybe I should have said the slightly less wealthy? Or the "not so poor, but definately not the wealthiest"? I'm fairly decent at baiting an argument, but this was not the case. I was just pointing out how your assertion was wrong in my opinion. Name 2. Mississippi, It's just one of them things that change with the times. I've heard it said that todays moderate republicans are just pre-60's moderate democrats with a new name. I don't know how true this is, but it goes to show you how things flow with the times and politics change with the situation.
  18. toasty, I find that your last post is wrong in at least one fundamental way. When throughout history have the poor been in charge? The wealthiest have always been in charge in every civilization
  19. john5746, I was refering to their exposure to these types of situations. They see these kinds of things more than your average citizen, so they will be more used to it and probably more capable of understanding the situation quicker than your average citizens. Although I will agree to your assessment in that people make mistakes. And they are not always good at taking responsibility for those mistakes. So I can see where you're coming from.
  20. IsraelUnoone, It seems that this sort of contraption will never harness enough energy for work. Or to power something. So what is the point of the object and how are these vibrations significant from other detectable wave frequencies? edit because cross posted with Royston. He does say the ball rotates, so if these tuning forks make the ball spin then there is at least some output. But I don't see in anyway it could be enhanced.
  21. imatfaal, Could be, I guess it's possible. I'm not sure how to respond. I have conflicting feelings about the subject. On one hand it would be a shame if people really were that callus about such a thing. On the other hand, I guess just depending on where you're at, it could be somewhat of a norm to see that most murder victims are young black men. Sure. Has the whole report come out yet? I haven't heard and I'm curious as to the circumstances of the situation and the reason that he gives for feeling justified in pursuit when specifically requested not to.
  22. iNow, What's the difference. I'm sure they're slightly different considering policies applied to resolve the issues, but the principle is the same isn't it? Maybe I'm not understanding what you are talking about when you say time critical. When you say time critical I think emergency or critical care, and most of the information I've found with ER waiting times has the US doing better than most. If this is not what you are implying please explain.
  23. I can agree with that. I haven't really been following too closely and didn't know what the facts were. My assumptions were based strictly on the actions of those who took control of the scene after the fact. Exactly, it's not like they don't know a situation for what it is. It's their job. If they weren't acting like Zimmerman was a cold blooded murderer then there has to be a reason. Yeah I guess it's up to what they report as to whether the DA sees fit to press charges.
  24. John, Well at least you admit they are issues finally. Who's the watch dog? No, as I recall you said it was too long and boreing for you too read when I presented the graph. You remember, the ones with all the little dots that you thought were price comparisons. Post #31 I believe it was. This is what you said Phi, Who does? That sentence once combined witht the analogy sure doesn't. IT, was talking about making emergency phone calls. My insurance didn't fail me. Twice it was my insides and the rest was my own stupid ass fault. And guess what? The first time I was 5 and my parents didn't have insurance. (oh no!) I'm still kickin', to the dismay of a number of people. Funny you should mention it. I work for Enron. Now renamed EOG resources that drill for oil and gas. They bought two silica sand plants down my way to corner the market in frac sand. I guess it's just cheaper if you own the sand plant rather than buy the sand from others. I knew you would get a kick out of it. I sure did.
  25. iNow, I thought we were talking about National Healthcare Systems in general. Hence "NHS nations". But here are some examples: This is from the OECD Here: http://www.oecd.org/.../32/5162353.pdf Hmmm.... Oh here's a more recent one from the OECD: http://www.oecd-ilib...application/pdf That would be fine if you've provided any facts. I can hand pick mine also. I bet the OECD is right-wing also? You've just cited it. What medical costs? There is a difference in the price that a private doctor charges a patient who pays out of pocket and what is charged to an insurance company. John, And I've stated the reason that those NORMS ans STANDARDS cannot be applied to this argument. It's hard to assess trends when the information being reported has different reporting criteria. And does that mean their data is manufactured or incorrect somehow. If so then how? I've already told you why the WHO's is incompareable to the argument. Hell, the WHO's data would even be bogus when comparing NHS nations against eachother. Explain to me how the methods of the NCPA don't apply.
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