DrDNA

 

Your religious right?

Religious right? I don't even know what that means any more.

Just the thought of the use/misuse of this term makes me cringe as if someone scrapped their fingernails on a chalk board.

Can you please define this term for me in your intended context?

PS: I voted for Obama and about 90% sure I will again.

You believe god exists, but do you obviously do not advocate violence.

I absolutely do advocate violence strongly, but only as a last resort.

Feet, if a viable alternative to the situation at hand, are much more efficient and safer for all parties.

Do you study science as well?

Do you think science is the language of the devil?

Science is a beautiful language of God.

Lies and closed mindedness are languages of the the devil.

Colossians 1 New International Version (NIV)16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Do you believe you cannot sit on furniture which women have menstruated on?

No, but the furniture should be tagged as "unclean" and put into storage for 7 days, after which time the tag can be removed, the furniture cleaned with detergent and used again as normal.

Seriously, what the....??

Do you believe people who have cheated on other people deserve to be stoned to death?

No more so than any other sinner. Including me.

The signal in the clouds was intercepted, and the moo was dispatched!

~mooey

Thanks for the clarification Mooeyoo!

No, the reality of the situation is that Noah's Ark is easily shown to be a fairy tale with no basis in reality.

This is an example the need to be careful how you interpret what you read, think, hear, say, etc.

1. a giant flood is lore in many cultlures

2. Was the whole earth flooded or some area flooded?

a.

Earth as in planet Earth = kadur ha'arets (כדור הארץ)

earth as in soil = adamah (אדמה). For example the soil/earth from which Adam was made.

earth as in land or territory = erets (ארץ)

hebrew words for earth

b. For example:

-God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and Lot's daughters said "there's not a man in the earth #776 Strong's Concordance (erets) to come in unto us" (Genesis 19:31) Not every man in the world was killed ... only those in the area of the destruction.

-Exodus 9:33 "the rain was not poured upon the earth" #776 Strong's Concordance (erets)... Of course we understand it is just speaking about a certain area in Egypt.

-Genesis 7, "Noah's flood": the flood covered "the earth", the Hebrew word used in the original writing by Moses was #776 Strong's Concordance "erets", meaning "the land" (see above). The flood cover a particular region, not the whole earth.

This is a problem a BROKEN translation and our BROKEN interpretation of the translation. Not with the story itself.

Couldn't you just shoot the guy in the leg or call the police and merely threaten him?

You ever 'TRY' to shoot a target in the leg (relatively narrow, below the horizontal plane of the shooter's arm/pistol and for a real person often rapidly shifting position)?

As opposed to the preferred, much more stable, large center of mass (ie, the chest).

Besides, people with holes in their leg can still kill you.

That always makes for interesting cinema and TV.

No cop academy, no paramilitary, military or self defense class would EVER teach that.

After demanding the offender to drop his weapon fails, you aim for center of mass and shoot to kill. That is assuming that you can't use your best defensive weapon, your feet.

Maybe that's broken too, if so, broken is the way it is.

Just to notice, that when looked at, with my particular skew, scientists are actually MORE likely to "please" God by just listening to his words, than religous people are likely to please him by putting 2000 year old words in his mouth.

Why can't we, don't we, do both?

There is a risk that you're bordering on stereotyping.

I'm not accusing, nor assuming you have crossed that line, but I do see the risk; perhaps because of my sensitivity to being stereotype myself....

Being both scientist and Christian, I get it from both side at least weekly depending on the present company.

Hmmmm. Editted your post huh? You said that you disagreed that 'all' people were broken and no one made that claim.

Chill. No deceit was intended in the edit.

doG,

and the Bible is pretty boring reading for a non-believer. I tried to read it, after I read the Koran twice, following Sept.11th, when I was trying to understand how such evil had come from a "religion of peace", but it was too boring, I couldn't read it through.

 

The first half of the Koran is at least interesting. I think Mohammed dictated that part. He was a good writer. And a persuasive thinker. The second half is mostly repitition and strikes me as a different style. I think the scribes wrote most of that themselves. Or Mohammed was suffering from writer's block.

Regarding the Quran,, perhaps this is what you may have been looking for (I know that I was after 9/11)?

It definitely does state that Christians and Jews are to be greeted with peace.

"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" (2:62, 5:69).

"...and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant" (5:82).

"O you who believe! Be helpers of God -- as Jesus the son of Mary said to the Disciples, 'Who will be my helpers in (the work of) God?' Said the disciples, 'We are God's helpers!' (61:14).

Also, regarding how Christians and Jews should treat Muslims and others...

Leviticus 19:33-34: “When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.”

Exodus 22:21: “You shall not wrong a sojourner or oppress him, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt.”

Deut 24:14 Do not take advantage of a hired worker who is poor and needy, whether that worker is a fellow Israelite or a foreigner residing in one of your towns. 15 Pay them their wages each day before sunset, because they are poor and are counting on it. Otherwise they may cry to the Lord against you, and you will be guilty of sin.

17 Do not deprive the foreigner or the fatherless of justice, or take the cloak of the widow as a pledge. 18 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the Lord your God redeemed you from there. That is why I command you to do this.

19 When you are harvesting in your field and you overlook a sheaf, do not go back to get it. Leave it for the foreigner, the fatherless and the widow, so that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. 20 When you beat the olives from your trees, do not go over the branches a second time. Leave what remains for the foreigner, the fatherless and the widow. 21 When you harvest the grapes in your vineyard, do not go over the vines again. Leave what remains for the foreigner, the fatherless and the widow. 22 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt. That is why I command you to do this.

Luke 6:27-31. Jesus says:

“But I say to you who here, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.”

It is so sad how this has been twisted and misinterpreted for selfish gain and hatred, and anger's sake.

These words are NOT BROKEN

You don't "have" to if you don't want to, and who's to say there isn't another way anyway?

maybe I don't "have to", but if it came down to a decision between some really "broken" dude seriously harming any child, my wife or a loved one, or me shooting the "broken" dude in the face, I'm gonna shoot the broken dude in the face all day, every day.

I take that back. I do "have to".

Could you please point out where that claim was made? Looking back through the thread I don't see where the claim was made that you are alleging to disagree with.

? The claim that "people that believe in God are broken"?

Please clarify.

What idiot gave them free will, knowing that they would do that sort of thing?

 

God can't abdicate responsibility that way any more than I can shoot someone then say "it wasn't me that killed him: it was the bullet".

He can't? Why can't he?

Anyway, bullets do not have free will.

People are not "broken" they are imperfect. Broken is a serious exaggeration. All creatures are imperfect. Broken is not the word.

I think that iNow was actually correct in his choice for terminology. I (perhaps incorrectly) see broken as a metaphor for fallen.

If all people are "broken" then how did the human population grow so successfully? People are functional enough to dominate the Earth.

 

After the eruption of the supervolcano Toba 72,000 years ago, the human race was decimated, and yet these "broken" people came back with a vengence.

There used to be a three legged cat that lived in our barn and ate mice. Nicest cat i ever saw. I don't where she came from. I think she just moved in. Having only 3 legs, she was definitely "broken". She couldn't get away from the 'unbroken' male cats and maybe she went in heat more than most cats. I don't know for sure but it sure seemed like she was always pregnant. And she had literally hundreds of descendants over the course of 5-6 years.

My point is, as long as the right parts are working, I don't think that being broken impedes the ability to reproduce.

And we have the Jerry Springer show.......

How are we conscious now and not then.If the future hasn't happened yet then the probability of being conscious would be much greater for the timeline of human existance is much longer than the day we were born.Also if there's a possibility of being born in the past then our existence now is impossible.If we were born in the past then the same problem would occur.Since we are here and there is a past and future then this could point to cycles of time.So we are destined for this time and destined to live it forever.This then makes freewill impossible.But,there is the Uncertainty Principle proving we might have freewill anyway.Post your thoughts and ideas on this.

No one knows really.

But I think that you just demonstrated that you are the type of person that needs to search for an answer to this and similar questions.

How old are you by the way?

In my opinion killing is wrong regardless for what cause.

Would be nice if it was possible, but impractical.

You would not take the life of an individual if it was the only means possible, God forbid, to protect a child (or loved one) from imminent death at the hands of said individual?

Many things seem odd at first. Like God telling the Hebrews to kill the Philistines in the land of Palestine after they left Egypt. This seems cruel. But if you read about the Philistines, they worshiped Baal. And part of the worship of Baal required sacrificing babies.

Isn't it rather a pity that God made the Philistines that way?

I don't believe that he made the Philistines that way. I think that they chose, through their own free will, to be that way.

-

DrDNA,

 

You are getting a bit "know-it-all"ish. Based on your own private understanding, of a book written by men, and edited by the "council of Trent". You are not allowed to claim the "God" perspective and expect it to mean anything to anybody here, that has already moved onto a "higher" level of collective consciousness than that. Everybody here, already knows these stories you talk about, and are more interested in learning more about the "real" creator, than a two thousand year old document can offer.

 

At least that is my take.

 

Regards, TAR2

 

 

The issue here, as I understand it, is about people who believe in God being broken.

Not some delusional higher collective

I disagree that only those who believe in God are broken.

My stance is simply that we are ALL broken.

Anything other than that, in my opinion, is arrogant, elitist and religion bashing. Which is rampant here.

Well just for the start, please visit this link:

 

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/08/how-many-has-god-killed.html

Interesting site. And no doubt God did kill a lot of people, but I don't necessarily see the sin in it.

Did the allies sin when they killed a bunch of Nazis?

I mean in the bible God does many things which look questionable to me like killing the firstborns of Egypt, punishing the Egyptians when he himself hardens Pharaoh's heart.

Many things seem odd at first. Like God telling the Hebrews to kill the Philistines in the land of Palestine after they left Egypt. This seems cruel. But if you read about the Philistines, they worshiped Baal. And part of the worship of Baal required sacrificing babies. God knew that this would infiltrate the Hebrews as they were an apparently wayward bunch. So he chose to have his chosen people not be influenced by this.

Also in the book of Job, God lets Job suffer needlessly in life and for what?

This is the part, I believe, where parable and reality meet.

The point actually is, Job did not waver and was rewarded at least 10x.

In other words, you may suffer in the short term, but your reward awaits you in the end.

God also sends people to an eternal Hell and for what? For committing finite crimes during a one lifetime on Earth?

He doesn't send anyone. It is all about freedom of choice and free will.

It looks to me like God sins a lot

By definition, WE believe that the God of the Hebrews is unable to "sin". What sin do you think that God committed?

As I've now requested of you on at least three separate occasions, perhaps you can please cease from making personal comments.

But you admitted to baiting.

 

Here's the full quote:

 

I'm familiar with it, of course. But it doesn't change anything.

It is less elegant than saying 'my girlfriend is perfect for me, she must have been made just for me'.

Either way, they are both irrelevant.

The chances of the mud puddle even existing are off the charts. The chances of the girlfriend existing....for you....zero.

In an infinitely large universe that possibly didn't have a real beginning or end, it doesn't really matter. Though based on our knowledge, I would say it takes 13.7 billion years if that is in fact about how long ago the matter we see around us was created.

LOL. You are just going by the existing evidence. I mean by calculation?

No, it's that we seldom get anyone here but Christians... and I don't have a problem with any but the creationist types...

I'm not a creationist and you got a problem with me.

What's the problem. You bored stoning Christians? You want to stone some Mormons or some Hindus or some Buddhists? How about stoning some Muslims. That should be fun.

and you are dishonest...

About what exactly?

If he was baiting then he caught one for sure....

Yep. He was for sure. He admitted to it. Just as I speculated a few days ago. And to flush the bird out of the bush ( and for entertainment), I sucked on that bait like a catfish sucking on stink bait on the bottom of the river.

But that's just probability. Given enough time, anything can happen. There are soooooooooooo many galaxies and so much matter that there was bound to someday be a planet that could support life, and then eventually have it. In fact, it's possible the universe itself is infinite in size and contains matter, which practically assures life will exist.

OK. I'll bite.

Do you how much time that would take?

 

God has preformed miracles in the past, why not now? Stopping the sun in the sky would be pretty impressive, he did for one group of sheep shaggers so they could kill another group of sheep shaggers. Why not do something impressive now? Swap the orbits of Mars and Venus, take over all our satellite broadcasts to tell us all what is really needed or demanded by him.

The universe exits. It exists with billions of galaxies in it with billions of solar systems and untold number of planets. Stars had to go supernova billions of years ago for the elements that created you to exist. You just so happen to live on one planet that is perfectly tuned for life. And you are part of a species that has evolved to a level to put satellites into orbit and create satellite broadcasts.

And you are looking for miracles?

Note: credit tar for the idea

Proof denies faith, and without faith, god is nothing. He needs to keep people believing in him so he can exist, so he occasionally performs miracles upon request!

 

LOL. OK.

How insulting, I mean really insulting.

I apologize.

only because it's too boring to concentrate on it for more than a couple hours at a time.

Then why do you punish yourself reading it over and over?

your assumption that if someone disagrees with you they haven't read your holy book is horse feathers of the worst sort.

I don't assume that at all.

Thanks for thinking for me.

And you are incorrect. Completely.

As a matter of fact, it definitely is the Christians that are crucified on here.

Every now and then a creationist comes on here spouting some nonsense and deserves to get stoned. But in most cases, all one has to do is affirm that they believe in God and they get stoned immediately.

Those prints you talk about are faked, the "Christians" who faked them admitted to it after it was proven the foot prints had been enhanced by carving the stones.

 

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/paluxy.html

Read my post again more carefully. The way you read the Bible and you will see that I implied exactly the same thing.

You know what I really love about responses such as this one that you've made to Moontanman? He has read the bible, more than once.

He's not such a prime example of a critical reader. See above.

You are not so much a mascot for the thread, but more a prime example of what I was thinking of when creating it.

Just as I suspected and even stated earlier.

This is your guilty plea that you are/were "baiting".

See my post a couple of days ago.

Now, who's ignorant?

Inow,

For instance. I have already decided that there is nothing that exists in this universe, this reality, that is supernatural. For me, saying something exists that is supernatural in nature, is a statement initially flawed in its construction. Because you CAN'T have something real that is not real.

So, what existed before the Big Bang?

Well, there's two people who have read the whole thing, yet they have disagreement on it, even about whether or not the events in them are real. Obviously, not everything makes sense in it if there is such disagreement.

Just because I can't drive a Lamborghini 200 mph doesn't mean that the car is defective.

Not everything in it makes sense. Yes. To us it doesn't right now. That doesn't mean that it is broken. More than likely, it means that we are broken.

For example, to use the example above, the first pages of Genesis didn't make much sense until the Big Bang theory.

I didn't read it out of order, I read parts of stories I felt I had time for, then moved to the next story the next day, and while I find the stories entertaining, some of it was just too entertaining, that kind of amazing stuff just doesn't happen in reality.

 

I understand. God's time vs our time, parable vs poetry vs exactly as it happened, etc is a toughie.

That's why it is important to read the whole thing. Without skipping around at least one time.

I know that it takes a LOT of time and effort, unless you are Phi for All .

And if you are not a Christian, you're saying to yourself, why bother.

There you go with that story book of hearsay again. The bible you keep bringing up IS NOT EVIDENCE!!! Sorry, no winner this time. Please try again.

If you admittedly don't know it, then why do you keep trying to debate it?

Wow. This is starting to look like the EXACT mirror image of one of those 6000 yr old creationists trying to debate cosmology......

Did I fall through a worm hole and end up on the other side?

I have not read the complete bible, but I have read many parts of it.

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense read randomly.

I used to do that.

But reading it in such a manner makes it difficult, change that to impossible, to distinguish the parables from the poetry and stories that meant to be taken directly (perhaps what you call "rational").

It also makes it impossible to see, for example, how Genesis ties in with Exodus, Daniel and Isiah and the whole New Testament, etc.

Scientists and psuedo scientists are different,

This is absolutely correct. But we have a mixture of both here and I didn't want to leave anyone out.

Without religion, humanity may have never formed a structured society in the first place, no one would see a reason to support each other.

Be careful. We already tried that.

They don't want to hear that here.....whoops, here comes a stone...

"At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds."John 8:59

It takes you a year to read the Bible?! It's never taken me more than a couple of weeks, and that's with just a couple hours of reading time each day.

That's pretty much self explanatory then.

What grade did you get in Physics and how long it take you to quote "read" the book?

 

DrDNA if you are going to continue to assert that your Christian god is real please provide some evidence of that claim.

Just read this completely and get back to me in a year or so.

Holy Bible

Then perhaps we can discuss your doubts intelligently.

You can't poo poo it if you don't know it.

It amazes me how scientists and pseudo-scientists love to argue about things they know nothing about, yet they immediately try to guard science from non-scientists and non-pseudo-scientists like it is the Holy Grail (pardon the pun...seriously not intended).

This is very similar to that so-called Christian guy in Texas that runs a """museum"""" with a rock in it that he claims has footprints, one being from a "dinosaur" and the other from a "man" imprinted at the same time period. he doesn't have a clue what he is arguing about either.

No. It is not similar. It is identical to the above.

In the context of this discussion though I suspect a great many of the broken people were not born that way, just broken by someone's hand me down beliefs in their upbringing.

You seem to be implying that we were all made perfectly and that the world (our parents, teachers, siblings, relatives, neighbors, religion, governments, "the man"....etc...) messed us all up?

What evidence do you have that this is true?