Greatest I am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYigmGyN2RQ&feature=youtu.be I have no problem with churches and recognize the good works they do in term of community. My bug is the way they teach of God. Most rely on fantasy, miracles and magic and that is the cause of much evil. It is my view that all literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are Religionists. They all hurt their parent religions and everyone else who has a belief. They make us all into laughing stocks and should rethink their position. There is a Godhead but not the God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution. Belief in fantasy is evil. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HKHaClUCw4&feature=PlayList&p=5123864A5243470E&index=0&playnext=1 They also do much harm to their own. African witches and Jesus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9gXriVI&feature=related Jesus Camp 1of 9 Promoting death to Gays. For evil to grow my friends, all good people need do is nothing. Fight them when you can. Regards Not while your God is not a God of full disclosure so that people can make the choice you say they have to make here. Your God is a hidding absentee God and if such a God would torture those in hell who do not believe in his absentee ass, then he is a SOB God fit only for immoral followers. Regards DL

Yep. Nothing like God placing a bet with Satan and allowing him to do his thing. A real moral God you have. Nothing like letting humans suffer on a God damned bet. You should have another look at your S O B God and look for one with morals. Regards DL How refreshing. A sane answer. Regards DL cripture says it so it must be true. Scripture says it so it must be true. Really? Is this true? If any man come unto me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brother, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he can not be my disciple." John 3:15 Regards DL

If God and evil cannot be in the same place, then Satan could not have been in heaven, God could not have been in Eden, Satan and God could not have been betting over Job and the temptation of Jesus could not have happened. You have just destroyed most of the Bible that points to your miracle working absentee god. Good. Thanks for showing how well you can fathom the unfathomable. Regards DL

I am not sure just how firmly those who believe in pro life are. I think that a survey like that should include a question that pertains to the ways and means of implementation of a new system. By that I mean, they should ask if people are willing to put their money where their mouth is and pay the extra taxes for all the orphanages and staff that would be required to have a pro life country. That and you will know of all the abuse that usually follows such places and the social costs in terms of criminality that come out of them. These offset the benefits quite a bit. Regards DL

I would say that that is a correct statement. One quick word on slavery. No religion has ever devised a demographic pyramid that did not have a bottom tier. Neither has any governmental system including democracy. Religions called them slaves and democracy, being more diplomatic perhaps, calles them the poor or working poor or indentured workers etc. In a sense, Christianity, by leaving slavery legal and setting conditions for treatment, may actually be more honest than democracy, which make makes it illegal, without enforcing it and not giving our modern day slaves any protection under the law at all, except for the lip service. Strange. Regards DL

On abortion. Perhaps if God showed he venerated life, his followers would as well. Further, abortion is of the unborn. God is shown as killing the born. Your scenario is thus not a good one. Apples and oranges. I also know what punishment is. It is the purpose that I question. Infinite torture is punishment but without purpose to that punishment, it is done purely for retribution and is of no benefit to the victim. We punish to change attitudes and actions and when we succeed, we end the retribution. Your God does not and can therefore be said to just torture for the cruelty of it. Regards DL They cannot have one without the other. Revelation and the four horsemen are not bringing good but evil. Even if just praying for their tribe to go to heaven. I think it better to shovel coal in hell than to spend eternity watching friends, neighbors and our children in torture and flame forever. Only a sick mind would conceive of such a situation or wish it upon anyone. That is why God would not do such because then, heaven would be hell. If those in heaven did not go insane then they could not have once been human or good. Regards DL

Not strange to me as there are a myriad of Christian sects. That may be why there are and always has been division on that belief. It is too weird to comprehend and is a make up as you go theology. You seen to fathom the unfathomable, an impossible task. Regards DL Other than hear say and book say, all hear say, how do you know that he is the one true God? If he is not the ultimate in sin, then who do you place above him and thus break the first commandment? You say God cannot change. That being the case, God cannot know you as you are new to the universe. If he is not allowed to change, accept new facts, the fact that you were born, then why would you follow him? Regards DL

Exactly. Good demographic thinking. One common with one head. The theist view is God on top but being a Gnotic Christian, I see a man there and not some invisible super miracle working absentee God. Regards DL

A & E. A natural death or murdered by God? A friend has a child with a peanut allergy. He keeps the life saving medicine in his home. He commanded his son not to eat peanuts but one day his son did. On noticing the situation, he quickly administered the drug. He recognized that the fright and discomfort to his child was punishment enough in and of itself and did not administer any other consequences. Not to his recovering child nor his siblings who had been with the child. He mentioned, in jest, that if God would have been of like mind, the world would never have been cursed by God and all of us would not have had death and original sin imposed on us. Genesis says that the first time that A & E did their own will and not the will of God, God administered, not only the known consequence of death on them, he also added a list of consequences that had yet not been discussed with anyone. In fact, the benefit of the gain of a moral sense, something quite valuable, was also never discussed. A & E had to gain that information from the talking snake. These facts indicate to me that some who say that Genesis if full of instances of injustice may be right. If I assume that A & E fell when they gained their moral sense, a strange concept to me as well as the Jews who see Genesis as man‘s elevation, Gen 3 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil----then they truly made a mistake. Having done something that could make them surely die as God said, it would seem to me as with my friend and his child, God should have given them the medicine that would save them. Something any good parent would do. Instead, God put the medicine, the tree of life, in his safe, so to speak, and let A & E suffer and die as he watched. There are two moral questions that pop to mind for me. 1. Is it moral for either God or man to sit and do nothing, or even hold back, life saving measures from a dying child? Scripture shows God barring the way to the tree of life. 2. Is it Moral, for parents or God, to add on a group of as yet unknown consequences, to some infraction that a child may have done? Scripture shows God passing on A & E’s sin to us via original sin, cursing the earth etc. All consequences that he arbitrarily added on without any warning at all. Now I know that some say that we cannot judge God. I will let the Bible judge him then. On original sin and death being given to all of us. Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. On God’s action toward the evil disobedience. Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. A reply to both questions above would be appreciated. Regards DL http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQBDGMj2h-c&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxyLZyBjyvY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XnnKA4o2Ao

Wow. You are right. If I were to answer and try to prove all of the issues you opened, it would be a lot of work. I am not here to write a book friend. I am here to compare Satan and God as they are shown in scripture. Some of your requests would be impossible for me to answer to in fact. Like DCT. I see your request as a logical fallacy. It is to those who believe in it, and God, to prove it. I cannot disprove a negative where God is concerned. Impossible. This speak to that. For this discussion, I will stick to the literal words of the Bible even as I know it should not be read literally; since I do not believe in any of it’s characters as other than archetypes. Happy to chat if you want to stick to the main issue in a literal way or even as myth. It is God morals, as shown in scripture, that is my focus. Not the minutia of any particular verse or the real existence of a God.. Regards DL

Ok. I took the time to do so. I could not find any in how he dealt with A & E. He tacked on a bunch of punishments arbitrarily and did not tell them of the benefits of eating of the tree of knowledge. Satan had to. I did see some with how he dealt with Satan. He gave him dominion here on earth. I could not find any in Noah's day or Sodoms as God killed instead of cure those he thought defective. He had the choice and took the moral low ground. In those days, this was what was being sung. Regards DL

Theists. Does this do anything to you consciousness? I direct this question more to literalists and fundamentals who read the Bible literally. Others of course are welcome to comment. Let me point out that I think of the Bible as a book of wisdom that it is a consolidation of many of the older religions of that day and is a good book to help us seek God by analyzing the old myths. If read literally, the reader will miss out on the rather wonderful thinking stimulated by it and miss the purpose that the book was put together point to. I do not disrespect it but have little respect for literal readers for that reason. They end up idol worshiping a book of myths. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYigmGyN2RQ&feature=youtu.be This scholar speaks to the archeology that is killing the historicity of the Bible. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2569440864215926514# This scholar is showing the plagiarizing and or forgeries of scriptures. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mpHpLrJVHY&feature=player_embedded#at=437 It is interesting to note that both of these prominent scholars came from fundamentalist religions before their research, as well as the scholars they quote, changed their overall views. They, like myself do not want to dissuade the search for God but only want to point out that God may be bigger than the pigeon hole/Bible that theist have put him in. As a religionist, to me, God is big enough to be everyone's God. Not just a chosen few. Theists should like this notion because then, God, if real, remains now, as in the beginning, master of all and not just master of some. Regards DL

Which one? The one that says I can have all the wives I can afford or the one that says only one? Which version of the myriad cults do you follow? The one who embraces Gays or the one that is homophobic? Then again, it may not matter because they are all full of plagiarized and or forged documents with unknown authors. Except yours of course. Regards DL

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? John 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. Matthew 5:17Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn’t care for his preaching. Matthew 11:20 Abandon your wife and children for Jesus and he’ll give your a big reward. Jesus asks that his followers abandon their children to follow him. To leave your child is abuse, it’s called neglect, pure and simple. Matthew 19:29 JESUS SAYS TO KILL ANYONE WHO CURSES HIS PARENTS - Matthew 15:4 (Jesus reaffirms Moses, who spoke for God) "For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'" JESUS KILLS A FIG TREE - Matthew 21:18-19 Now in the morning as he returned to the city, he hungered. And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said to it, "Let no fruit grow on thee henceforth for ever." And presently the fig tree withered away. JESUS KILLS A FIG TREE - Mark 11:12-14, 20 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." ... In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. [NOTE: Is this the action of a sane man?] JESUS ON SEXUAL IMMORALITY, ADULTERY, AND CHILD ABUSE - Revelation 2:20-23 "You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead." 1) Capital Punishment Crimes: Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT) Kill Witches You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB) Kill Homosexuals "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB) Kill Fortunetellers A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB) Death for Hitting Dad Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB) Death for Cursing Parents 1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB) 2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT) Death for Adultery If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT) Death for Fornication A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB) Death to Followers of Other Religions Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB) Kill Nonbelievers They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB) Kill False Prophets If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB) Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT) Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB) Kill Followers of Other Religions. 1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB) 2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT) Death for Blasphemy One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT) Kill False Prophets 1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT) 2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT) Infidels and Gays Should Die So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT) Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT) Kill People for Working on the Sabbath The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) God's Murders for Stupid Reasons: Kill Brats From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB) God Kills the Curious And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV) Killed by a Lion Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT) Killing the Good Samaritan The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals. When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) Murdering Children Kill Sons of Sinners Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB) God Will Kill Children The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT) Kill Men, Women, and Children "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT) God Kills all the First Born of Egypt And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT) Kill Old Men and Young Women "You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26) (Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.) God Will Kill the Children of Sinners If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT) More Rape and Baby Killing Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy ..less babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) Miscellaneous Murders More of Samson's Murders (The Lord saves Sampson from standing trial for 30 murders and arson by allowing him to kill 1000 more men.) When he reached Lehi, and the Philistines came shouting to meet him, the spirit of the Lord came upon him: the ropes around his arms become as flax that is consumed by fire and the bonds melted away from his hands. Near him was the fresh jawbone of an ass; he reached out, grasped it, and with it killed a thousand men. (Judges 15:14-15 NAB) Peter Kills Two People There was also a man named Ananias who, with his wife, Sapphira, sold some property. He brought part of the money to the apostles, but he claimed it was the full amount. His wife had agreed to this deception. Then Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself. The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished. And after selling it, the money was yours to give away. How could you do a thing like this? You weren't lying to us but to God." As soon as Ananias heard these words, he fell to the floor and died. Everyone who heard about it was terrified. Then some young men wrapped him in a sheet and took him out and buried him. About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, "Was this the price you and your husband received for your land?" "Yes," she replied, "that was the price." And Peter said, "How could the two of you even think of doing a thing like this – conspiring together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Just outside that door are the young men who buried your husband, and they will carry you out, too." Instantly, she fell to the floor and died. When the young men came in and saw that she was dead, they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear gripped the entire church and all others who heard what had happened. (Acts 5:1-11 NLT) Mass Murder This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.' (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB) You Have to Kill Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB) The Danites Kill the Next Town But the territory of the Danites was too small for them; so the Danites marched up and attacked Leshem, which they captured and put to the sword. Once they had taken possession of Lesham, they renamed the settlement after their ancestor Dan. (Joshua 19:47 NAB) God Kills Some More Then the LORD said to me, "Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me pleading for these people, I wouldn't help them. Away with them! Get them out of my sight! And if they say to you, 'But where can we go?' tell them, 'This is what the LORD says: Those who are destined for death, to death; those who are destined for war, to war; those who are destined for famine, to famine; those who are destined for captivity, to captivity.' "I will send four kinds of destroyers against them," says the LORD. "I will send the sword to kill, the dogs to drag away, the vultures to devour, and the wild animals to finish up what is left. Because of the wicked things Manasseh son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did in Jerusalem, I will make my people an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth." (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT) God Promises More Killing I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT) The Angel of Death My angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites; and I will wipe them out. (Exodus 23:23 NAB) Destruction of Ai Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Do not be afraid or discouraged. Take the entire army and attack Ai, for I have given to you the king of Ai, his people, his city, and his land. You will destroy them as you destroyed Jericho and its king. But this time you may keep the captured goods and the cattle for yourselves. Set an ambush behind the city." So Joshua and the army of Israel set out to attack Ai. Joshua chose thirty thousand fighting men and sent them out at night with these orders: "Hide in ambush close behind the city and be ready for action. When our main army attacks, the men of Ai will come out to fight as they did before, and we will run away from them. We will let them chase us until they have all left the city. For they will say, 'The Israelites are running away from us as they did before.' Then you will jump up from your ambush and take possession of the city, for the LORD your God will give it to you. Set the city on fire, as the LORD has commanded. You have your orders." So they left that night and lay in ambush between Bethel and the west side of Ai. But Joshua remained among the people in the camp that night. Early the next morning Joshua roused his men and started toward Ai, accompanied by the leaders of Israel. They camped on the north side of Ai, with a valley between them and the city. That night Joshua sent five thousand men to lie in ambush between Bethel and Ai, on the west side of the city. So they stationed the main army north of the city and the ambush west of the city. Joshua himself spent that night in the valley. When the king of Ai saw the Israelites across the valley, he and all his army hurriedly went out early the next morning and attacked the Israelites at a place overlooking the Jordan Valley. But he didn't realize there was an ambush behind the city. Joshua and the Israelite army fled toward the wilderness as though they were badly beaten, and all the men in the city were called out to chase after them. In this way, they were lured away from the city. There was not a man left in Ai or Bethel who did not chase after the Israelites, and the city was left wide open. Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Point your spear toward Ai, for I will give you the city." Joshua did as he was commanded. As soon as Joshua gave the signal, the men in ambush jumped up and poured into the city. They quickly captured it and set it on fire. When the men of Ai looked behind them, smoke from the city was filling the sky, and they had nowhere to go. For the Israelites who had fled in the direction of the wilderness now turned on their pursuers. When Joshua and the other Israelites saw that the ambush had succeeded and that smoke was rising from the city, they turned and attacked the men of Ai. Then the Israelites who were inside the city came out and started killing the enemy from the rear. So the men of Ai were caught in a trap, and all of them died. Not a single person survived or escaped. Only the king of Ai was taken alive and brought to Joshua. When the Israelite army finished killing all the men outside the city, they went back and finished off everyone inside. So the entire population of Ai was wiped out that day – twelve thousand in all. For Joshua kept holding out his spear until everyone who had lived in Ai was completely destroyed. Only the cattle and the treasures of the city were not destroyed, for the Israelites kept these for themselves, as the LORD had commanded Joshua. So Ai became a permanent mound of ruins, desolate to this very day. Joshua hung the king of Ai on a tree and left him there until evening. At sunset the Israelites took down the body and threw it in front of the city gate. They piled a great heap of stones over him that can still be seen today. (Joshua 8:1-29 NLT) Killing at Jericho When the people heard the sound of the horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it. They completely destroyed everything in it – men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys – everything. (Joshua 6:20-21 NLT) God Kills an Extended Family "You have done more evil than all who lived before you. You have made other gods and have made me furious with your gold calves. And since you have turned your back on me, I will bring disaster on your dynasty and kill all your sons, slave or free alike. I will burn up your royal dynasty as one burns up trash until it is all gone. I, the LORD, vow that the members of your family who die in the city will be eaten by dogs, and those who die in the field will be eaten by vultures.'" Then Ahijah said to Jeroboam's wife, "Go on home, and when you enter the city, the child will die. All Israel will mourn for him and bury him. He is the only member of your family who will have a proper burial, for this child is the only good thing that the LORD, the God of Israel, sees in the entire family of Jeroboam. And the LORD will raise up a king over Israel who will destroy the family of Jeroboam. This will happen today, even now! Then the LORD will shake Israel like a reed whipped about in a stream. He will uproot the people of Israel from this good land that he gave their ancestors and will scatter them beyond the Euphrates River, for they have angered the LORD by worshiping Asherah poles. He will abandon Israel because Jeroboam sinned and made all of Israel sin along with him." (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT) Mass Murder The men of Israel withdrew through the territory of the Benjaminites, putting to the sword the inhabitants of the city, the livestock, and all they chanced upon. Moreover they destroyed by fire all the cities they came upon. (Judges 20:48 NAB) The Angel of Death That night the angel of the Lord went forth and struck down one hundred and eighty five thousand men in the Assyrian camp. Early the next morning, there they were, all the corpuses of the dead. (2 Kings 19:35 NAB) Kill Your Neighbors (Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT) Kill the Family of Sinners And Joshua said to Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession to him; and tell me now what thou hast done, hide it not from me. And Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done. When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them, and behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it." [Note that the sin is not looting, but failing to give the loot to the treasury of the Lord.] "So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran to the tent, and behold, it was hid in his tent, and the silver under it. And they took them from the midst of the tent, and brought them to Joshua, and to all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the LORD. And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them to the valley of Achor. And Joshua said, why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. And they raised over him a great heap of stones to this day. So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger: wherefore the name of that place was called the valley of Achor to this day. (Joshua 7:19-26 Webster's Bible) Kill Followers of Other Religions While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel." So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT) Murder At the customary time for offering the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet walked up to the altar and prayed, "O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, prove today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant. Prove that I have done all this at your command. O LORD, answer me! Answer me so these people will know that you, O LORD, are God and that you have brought them back to yourself." Immediately the fire of the LORD flashed down from heaven and burned up the young bull, the wood, the stones, and the dust. It even licked up all the water in the ditch! And when the people saw it, they fell on their faces and cried out, "The LORD is God! The LORD is God!" Then Elijah commanded, "Seize all the prophets of Baal. Don't let a single one escape!" So the people seized them all, and Elijah took them down to the Kishon Valley and killed them there. (1 Kings 18:36-40 NLT) Kill All of Babylon "Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT) Micah Kills a Whole Town Then, with Micah's idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure. They attacked and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground. There was no one to rescue the residents of the town, for they lived a great distance from Sidon and had no allies nearby. This happened in the valley near Beth-rehob.Then the people of the tribe of Dan rebuilt the town and lived there. They renamed the town Dan after their ancestor, Israel's son, but it had originally been called Laish. (Judges 18:27-29 NLT) (Note that God approves of this slaughter in verse 6.) If Jesus was the stand in for God as you say. His death was justified in spades. Regards DL

You will note that not all here are in your/our choir. Regards DL To say that God does not do evil would mean that you agree that Sodom and the genocide of Noah’s day were good justice. Not to mention all the other children and babies he had slaughtered along the way. Do you? Regards DL

Are the three heads of the Trinity not equal? Do they not all have the same power and all other attributes? Does monothistic religion mean that there is only one God? BTW. Yes, I do have better morals than those who would follow a genocidal maniac. Regards DL

Do you not have a dictionary? Regards DL I agree. Without proof of the supernatural, one should not believe in it. Regards DL

Who is the epitome of Evil, God or Satan? Though shalt place no one above me. Satan did not as he followed God’s instructions with Job. He was firmly under God’s control. Many have jumped through hoops to make anyone other than God the most evil in existence yet scripture says that God gets the Gold star in all categories. Even as the most evil. After all, he is said to have created the concept of law. The Word. All Goods and Evils. The first divisive tool for social manipulation and control. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh1qWZWNGGE God is said to have just about all attributes that man has been able to imagine. God has been reduced to our wish list. Including the creator of an everlasting hell to entertain our more hateful wishes. God is still ashamed of what he has wrought as in the days of Noah. Mythical Noah the is. Even after using genocide to reboot his systems. Strange. Another failure. God, if he were real, seems to have two messages for us. Do as you are told and do not think too much. Hence faith to drive away logic and reason. As the epitome of Evil, Satan runs a poor second place to God. Have we put the blame for creations evils on the created, Satan, when it was God, who, as the epitome of Evil, shirked his duty of taking responsibility for what he as God sowed. That also would mean that Bishop John Spong was right and God is guilty of child abuse by putting the responsibility for his works on Jesus. Do as I say and not as I do is God’s policy. I also would argue against his policy or rewarding what he calls rebellion. I E. Giving Satan dominion over mankind and rewarding Cain with a kingdom for murder. Not a good thing for the law maker to do. Two stains on his Gold star. Is God the epitome of evil? Is that the moral lesson of the flood myth? What does that say of the literalists who follow Noah’s God and think that genocide is good justice? Regards DL

Thanks for this. “I cannot purport to knowing God's mind, or His reasoning.” And you will never know it if you refuse to answer the hard questions like who should die. Your last is a strange statement. It says you follow blindly one who uses genocide on man and that you do not know his policies. Yet above, you have just finished telling me of how he thinks. Hitler and Stalin looked for minds like yours. Regards DL

I tend not to get upset. Just disappointed when I see a good human mind being wasted. If I was more eloquent, I would say it this way. Regards DL

What was it, 310 years after his death that they actually made him part of the silly notion they called the Trinity. Regards DL

A Tripolation Now I am confused. You seem to have ignored the scriptures I gave earlier that show clearly that God does not accept a ransom and cannot be bribed by a sacrifice. I also gave you scripture that shows that we are clearly responsible for our own sins. Scripture aside, if you think about human scapegoating, you will recognize the immorality of it. The guilty should be punished. Not some innocent man even if it is his choice. You say that God values free will above all else yet the free will he offers us is to do things his way or burn in hell. Further, if it is that valuable then he sure claws it back from many as he destroys their free will to live by killing them all over the O T. I agree that God cannot die. Jesus the man did and that gives him no supernatural power to forgive sin. You then say "Jesus is God manifesting himself in human form, " Make up your mind. "And what would be harder, a father dying in place of his son, or having to watch his son die?" You tell me. If you or your son had to die for some reason, who would you choose? What is the right and natural thing to do? Please do not use this doge again. "Well, if only my son could make the sacrifice, then yes, I would send him." Jesus is God as far as you are concerned so we are talking fathers and sons here. They are equal. "I do think it strange. And also terribly wrong. Which is why I disagree with the concept of Hell for people with good souls." Yet Christians say that without belief in their brand of God, they do get there. Are you disagreeing with the concept or with your God who created hell? Do you have the nerve to call him out on the immoral concept of any infinite punishment. Infinite torture without purpose other than revenge is quite immoral. Regards DL

Yes. I noted your Jesus quote and I am on the works are required side so I thought I would just added some quotes for you to see what he said of works. Regards DL

Jesus also said you'd know his disciples by their fruit (Works). ..14.. How does it help, my brothers, when someone who has never done a single good act claims to have faith? Will that faith bring salvation?.. ....15.. If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on,.. ....16.. and one of you says to them, 'I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty,' without giving them these bare necessities of life, then what good is that?.. ....17.. In the same way faith, if good deeds do not go with it, is quite dead... ....18.. But someone may say: So you have faith and I have good deeds? Show me this faith of yours without deeds, then! It is by my deeds that I will show you my faith... ....19.. You believe in the one God -- that is creditable enough, but even the demons have the same belief, and they tremble with fear... ....20.. Fool! Would you not like to know that faith without deeds is useless?.. ....21.. Was not Abraham our father justified by his deed, because he offered his son Isaac on the altar?.. ....22.. So you can see that his faith was working together with his deeds; his faith became perfect by what he did... ....23.. In this way the scripture was fulfilled: Abraham put his faith in God, and this was considered as making him upright; and he received the name 'friend of God'... ....24.. You see now that it is by deeds, and not only by believing, that someone is justified... You should study James a bit more if you think there is no contradiction between James and Peter. http://bible.org/article/faith-demons-james-219 Regards DL

I did not say the crucifixion was B S, even as we cannot be sure it happened, but was speaking to the idea that it was a sacrifice orchestrated by God. What God in his right mind would create a species that he had to die for. God cannot die in the first place can he? Please do not use that dumb Trinity garbage. Check instead the moral implications of the following. Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. Note how this indicates we are to help others, not try to profit from his death. Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Psalm 49:7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him: Note how we are all responsible for our own action and cannot use Jesus as our ransom. Yet scripture says ----father who sent me. Sons are to bury their fathers. Not fathers bury their sons, so to me, God sending Jesus is God not stepping up to his own responsibilities. If you had to sacrifice a life for what you created, would you step up or send your son to die in your stead? This is also interesting. http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/expedition-week/4290/Overview#tab-Videos/07451_00 If you believe Jesus actually committed suicide, then it was a slf aggrandizing act, not a sacrifice. That would mean that good people of good heart with no need of a God are not acceptable to God. Right? Do you not think that strange? Regards DL